BMW M3 and M4 - The Icons
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
home
G80 BMW M3 and M4 General Topics BMW M3 (G80), M4 (G82), CSL and 3.0 CSL General Forum

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      04-14-2021, 08:30 AM   #45
02M3ForMe
Lieutenant Colonel
4256
Rep
1,621
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by VIERsr View Post
Maybe you missed a point. Someone above asked if this car 'push you into the seat'. No, it doesn't, not for me when I drove it. And the claimed data prove it.
Acceleration 80-120 km/h in 4th/5th with manual transmission:
F80: 3.5s/4.2s
G80: 4.1s/5.6s
F87C: 3.3s/4s (<- smaller wheels, so slightly shorter gear ratios)

This means that if you accelerate to full throttle with the new M3 in 4th gear, you're as fast (or 'pushed in the seat') as the old M3 in 5th. Fast? Depends. Engaging? Well, not for me.
That's not to say the car is slow or bad to drive, it's great and the manual gearbox is amazing, but if you're looking for that kick in the ass of a turbo engine, you'll be disappointed with this detuned engine. Just as if you are looking for an endless top-end, well this is not an NA engine (just like the s55 obviously isn't or any other turbo engine).
But I don't think you buy this car for that, the purpose of the manual transmission is something else, just be aware of your purchase
You were in a thread a couple of days ago talking about how the G8x’s power delivery isn’t interesting because the torque curve “does nothing” (stays flat) from 3500-6000RPM. Reminder that constant torque as RPMs rise means a linear and predictable increase in power as you go to redline.

Metrics for accelerating from 80km/h in 4th is of limited value in a car that does nearly 120km/h in 2nd. Yes, we know the S55 has noticeably more torque than the S58 below 3000RPM; that’s part of the problem when it comes to maintaining good behavior launching off the line. Yes, the S58 will penalize you more for being out of gear since it makes its power higher up, just like an NA car. Those numbers are completely irrelevant to whether the car “pushes you back in the seat” during an actual acceleration run where the RPMs are always above 3000. In those situations, the numbers flip the other way in favor of the G8x.

If you’re coming out of an S55 car and expect to be able to lazily punch it from 2000RPM and get the car moving semi-optimally, you will be disappointed. Sometimes I miss that character of my old F8x cars, but going to redline in the G8x is way more rewarding and exciting than doing the same in my old M4s, M3 CS, and M2Cs.
Appreciate 4
KoenG1417.50
opielm88.00
Scorp!on1510.00
      04-14-2021, 08:36 AM   #46
02M3ForMe
Lieutenant Colonel
4256
Rep
1,621
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by VIERsr View Post
This is not what our friend asked for.

At 30 km/h in 2nd gear nothing you described happens.
FYI, at 30 km/h in 2nd the engine is not revving at 6000 rpm.
Given that 100km/h is near the top of 2nd, to say the car won’t “push you in the back” at some point on the way to 100km/h in 2nd isn’t accurate, either. It may feel a bit weaker than an S55 car right when you push the throttle, but the power builds up quickly and the car is pulling harder at the end.
Appreciate 3
Sordz20.00
KoenG1417.50
      04-14-2021, 08:51 AM   #47
VIERsr
Major
Switzerland
2621
Rep
1,477
Posts

Drives: BMW M2
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Zurich

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by 02M3ForMe View Post
Given that 100km/h is near the top of 2nd, to say the car won’t “push you in the back” at some point on the way to 100km/h in 2nd isn’t accurate, either. It may feel a bit weaker than an S55 car right when you push the throttle, but the power builds up quickly and the car is pulling harder at the end.
That's true, I had meant if you felt the push you in the back at 30km/h actually, perhaps we have interpreted the question differently.
From 6000 to the rev limit there is a nice kick, but after the upshift you're again in the "flat zone" because of the long gear ratios.
Appreciate 0
      04-14-2021, 09:54 AM   #48
02M3ForMe
Lieutenant Colonel
4256
Rep
1,621
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by VIERsr View Post
That's true, I had meant if you felt the push you in the back at 30km/h actually, perhaps we have interpreted the question differently.
From 6000 to the rev limit there is a nice kick, but after the upshift you're again in the "flat zone" because of the long gear ratios.
Gotcha. I think this kind of powerband makes sense for the 6MT since the goal is to have fun managing the power with the gears.

I still don't quite understand the "flat zone" you're talking about from 3000-6000; yes, the torque curve is exceptionally flat, and that means power (what you actually feel and what actually delivers the performance) is increasing almost perfectly linearly through this range. This behavior is typically reserved for well-engineered NA cars and is generally considered ideal, especially for motorsport use cases. The only "spike" in the G8x powerband is when you hit that long, wide torque "plateau" at 3000RPM.

To me, an actual "flat zone" is a range where HP (power) is constant as revs rise due to falling torque, like you generally experience going to redline with older turbo engines (which, to some extent, includes the S55). In this "flat zone", there's a sensation that there's little reward for continually revving out and you feel like short-shifting. There is no part of the G8x's power delivery that feels like this. Going all the way to 7200RPM feels fantastic.

My guess is you like the additional excitement of a torque curve that rises with revs, which is actually suboptimal if you were to compare two cars with similar peak torque numbers since your peaky car will have less area under its power curve, and thus less overall performance. It's also a deceptive feeling, as you're feeling a "torqueless wonder" become competent as the revs rise, while an engine like the S58 reaches competency much earlier and stays there the whole time.
Appreciate 2
opielm88.00
      04-14-2021, 10:01 AM   #49
V E E R
New Member
37
Rep
14
Posts

Drives: 2021 BMW M4 6MT, 2006 Z4MR
Join Date: May 2020
Location: San Diego

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by VIERsr View Post
What exactly does it mean to 'drive like a man'? Slipping the tires from 2nd to 3rd? Does that make a car powerful? Omg
Maybe you're used to dull cars, drive (like a man, of course!) an M3 with S55 (or try the full power S58) and you'll understand the difference between a strong power delivery and a dull one, and what does it mean 'to be pushed into the seat'.
What you define 'a damn quick car' (and it is, of course) is slower than the predecessor and you clearly notice that. Only for real men tough.

SPOILER WARNING: Even a Miata slips the tires when you change gears 'like a man'.
Bruh, you test drove the car around the block with the salesman in the passenger seat stop acting like you are an authority on it’s power delivery.
__________________
Current Rides
2021 M4 6MT, 2006 Z4M Roadster, 2020 Toyota Tacoma 6MT

Previous: 06 AM V8Vantage 6MT, 2018 M2, 2018 Camaro SS 1LE, 2018 718 Cayman and a bunch of others...
Appreciate 2
      04-14-2021, 10:19 AM   #50
KoenG
Lieutenant Colonel
Belgium
1418
Rep
1,519
Posts

Drives: i4 eDrive40 & Cupra Leon 300
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Europe

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by av.7447 View Post
I think the right question here is, how much faster will the manual transmission cars be once the competition tune will become available on them... �� We all know that in proper hands the slush box cannot be faster than the manual. ��
ZF8HP has 2 more gears to better exploit the powerband and shifts faster. On top, 650Nm is complete within design specification leaving additional head room for more, on the MT you'll have to pay the damage yourself because 550Nm is already the max design specification. Tuning it with a jb4 to 800Nm only rises the question: when? not whether? since that's pretty certain.
Appreciate 0
      04-14-2021, 10:23 AM   #51
VIERsr
Major
Switzerland
2621
Rep
1,477
Posts

Drives: BMW M2
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Zurich

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by V E E R View Post
Bruh, you test drove the car around the block with the salesman in the passenger seat stop acting like you are an authority on it’s power delivery.
Exactly, a very big block actually



Due to the pandemic measures it's not allowed to drive with the salesman in the passenger seat, for your information.
Appreciate 4
bsmf8x777.00
Scorp!on1510.00
naywa01280.50
02M3ForMe4255.50
      04-14-2021, 02:09 PM   #52
akkando
Major General
akkando's Avatar
5860
Rep
6,631
Posts

Drives: 17 M2 DCT LBB,11 e90 M3 ZCP IB
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Bay Area

iTrader: (1)

[QUOTE=02M3ForMe;27471378]
Quote:
Originally Posted by VIERsr View Post

To me, an actual "flat zone" is a range where HP (power) is constant as revs rise due to falling torque, like you generally experience going to redline with older turbo engines (which, to some extent, includes the S55). In this "flat zone", there's a sensation that there's little reward for continually revving out and you feel like short-shifting.

This is how the stock power of an m2c feels to me at 5300 or so rpm to 7600. 2000 revs of being disappointed.
Appreciate 0
      04-14-2021, 02:20 PM   #53
TrentMeister
Colonel
TrentMeister's Avatar
2845
Rep
2,066
Posts

Drives: g82 comp
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Dana Point

iTrader: (0)

Coming form a 6mt m2c the zf8 is honestly awesome in the 4c.

Maybe I'll get bored of it after a while but it currently rocks.

I'll be getting a 6speed g87 when they come out so I'm not too worried about missing out on the manual for a year or two.
Appreciate 0
      04-14-2021, 02:28 PM   #54
02M3ForMe
Lieutenant Colonel
4256
Rep
1,621
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by akkando View Post
This is how the stock power of an m2c feels to me at 5300 or so rpm to 7600. 2000 revs of being disappointed.
Right. After several full-throttle, redline-shift pulls since the break-in service was completed, I can confidently assure anyone coming out of a stock S55 car that the G8x 6MT will absolutely not disappoint. You will be pleased.

I'm looking forward to new owners performing similar tests and revisiting this thread and weighing in on the forum.
Appreciate 1
opielm88.00
      04-14-2021, 03:25 PM   #55
spacecowboy85
Private First Class
spacecowboy85's Avatar
397
Rep
102
Posts

Drives: 2021 BMW M3
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Chicago

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 02M3ForMe View Post
Right. After several full-throttle, redline-shift pulls since the break-in service was completed, I can confidently assure anyone coming out of a stock S55 car that the G8x 6MT will absolutely not disappoint. You will be pleased.

I'm looking forward to new owners performing similar tests and revisiting this thread and weighing in on the forum.
I’m doing a track day next week, I can’t wait. As stated this engine (S58) has that rewarding feeling of chasing that redline, my old F80 was a fun car in the sense that the low end torque was easily used in the street but I was never chasing redline in fact in certain tracks as was short shifting in order to not upset the car as much. But this new engine really has a different charm it makes you want to rev it out. I have 2300 miles on it and as soon as the break in was over I have been truly enjoying it.
Appreciate 3
KoenG1417.50
02M3ForMe4255.50
Mephisto115.00
      04-14-2021, 03:40 PM   #56
VIERsr
Major
Switzerland
2621
Rep
1,477
Posts

Drives: BMW M2
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Zurich

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by 02M3ForMe View Post
Right. After several full-throttle, redline-shift pulls since the break-in service was completed, I can confidently assure anyone coming out of a stock S55 car that the G8x 6MT will absolutely not disappoint. You will be pleased.

I'm looking forward to new owners performing similar tests and revisiting this thread and weighing in on the forum.
It is a fact that the manual G80 with 480hp is slower than the manual F80 with 450hp and BMW is honest enough to admit it (worse acceleration data and worse power to weight ratio), just don't give false hopes to potential buyers coming from an F80
Appreciate 0
      04-14-2021, 07:44 PM   #57
02M3ForMe
Lieutenant Colonel
4256
Rep
1,621
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by VIERsr View Post
It is a fact that the manual G80 with 480hp is slower than the manual F80 with 450hp and BMW is honest enough to admit it (worse acceleration data and worse power to weight ratio), just don't give false hopes to potential buyers coming from an F80
It’s slower ... when you’re in the completely wrong gear. Again, 80km/h to 120km/h in 4th is a test for daily driving on your highway commute, not for telling you anything about how the car feels while you’re having fun on a track or a back road. In the proper gear, the G8x 6MT is faster than all S55-powered cars, with the only possible exception of the 480hp M4 GTS (and that’s a maybe since the G8x puts power down much better than any F8x).
Appreciate 0
      04-14-2021, 07:58 PM   #58
opielm
Private First Class
United_States
88
Rep
102
Posts

Drives: G80 TBII 6MT
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: NJ

iTrader: (0)

Looking at the torque and power curves between the base and comp looks like the "de-tune" is only between 5500-6000 RPM.

base


comp


The two versions should be the same outside that range.
Appreciate 0
      04-14-2021, 09:42 PM   #59
CanAutM3
General
CanAutM3's Avatar
Canada
21105
Rep
20,741
Posts

Drives: 2021 911 turbo
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by opielm View Post
Looking at the torque and power curves between the base and comp looks like the "de-tune" is only between 5500-6000 RPM.

base


comp


The two versions should be the same outside that range.
Something is off with those charts as both show 600N-m. Base tune has 550N-m while Competition tune has 650N-m.
__________________
Porsche 911 turbo 2021 992 GT Silver

Previous cars: M4cs 2019 F82 Limerock Grey / M4 2015 F82 Silverstone / M3 2008 E92 Silverstone / M3 2002 E46 Carbon Black
Appreciate 1
VIERsr2620.50
      04-14-2021, 11:25 PM   #60
av.7447
Second Lieutenant
Canada
180
Rep
253
Posts

Drives: E39, E60 M5, F06 M6, F15, F90
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Ontario

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KoenG View Post
ZF8HP has 2 more gears to better exploit the powerband and shifts faster. On top, 650Nm is complete within design specification leaving additional head room for more, on the MT you'll have to pay the damage yourself because 550Nm is already the max design specification. Tuning it with a jb4 to 800Nm only rises the question: when? not whether? since that's pretty certain.
.

lol, what? Just FYI this same getrag unit was used on the F10 which had 680nm stock... if anything you will need to change your clutch before something will have a hint of breaking... they say that their torque limit is around 600nm, bullshit, I don’t remember too many F10s or F80s breaking anything even with aftermarket clutch. JB4 is for kids... we need to hack that ECU asap! 😅💪 ZF slush box 1/4 mile and 100-200 times will be annihilated with the 6 speed...
Appreciate 0
      04-15-2021, 12:34 AM   #61
VIERsr
Major
Switzerland
2621
Rep
1,477
Posts

Drives: BMW M2
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Zurich

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by opielm View Post
Looking at the torque and power curves between the base and comp looks like the "de-tune" is only between 5500-6000 RPM.

base


comp


The two versions should be the same outside that range.
Right engine, wrong car. This is the X3/4M base and Competition, quite different from M3/4 base and Competition.
Appreciate 1
CanAutM321104.50
      04-15-2021, 09:10 AM   #62
opielm
Private First Class
United_States
88
Rep
102
Posts

Drives: G80 TBII 6MT
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: NJ

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by VIERsr View Post
Right engine, wrong car. This is the X3/4M base and Competition, quite different from M3/4 base and Competition.
You are correct. I did find this instead:

The new S58 powerplant delivers 473 hp at 6,250 rpm and 406 lb-ft of torque between 2,650 and 6,130 rpm. The Competition models’ S58 engine is further tuned to produce 503 hp at 6,250 rpm and 479 lb-ft of torque between 2,750 and 5,500.

So it looks like a bigger difference in torque through a wider range. Probably due to the mechanics of a pressure plate in the MT vs how the ZF8 can handle torque.
Appreciate 0
      04-15-2021, 10:32 AM   #63
Jproos
Facts matter
Jproos's Avatar
United_States
323
Rep
337
Posts

Drives: BMW 335i (2014), M3 (2021)
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: MI

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 02M3ForMe View Post
You were in a thread a couple of days ago talking about how the G8x’s power delivery isn’t interesting because the torque curve “does nothing” (stays flat) from 3500-6000RPM. Reminder that constant torque as RPMs rise means a linear and predictable increase in power as you go to redline.

Metrics for accelerating from 80km/h in 4th is of limited value in a car that does nearly 120km/h in 2nd. Yes, we know the S55 has noticeably more torque than the S58 below 3000RPM; that’s part of the problem when it comes to maintaining good behavior launching off the line. Yes, the S58 will penalize you more for being out of gear since it makes its power higher up, just like an NA car. Those numbers are completely irrelevant to whether the car “pushes you back in the seat” during an actual acceleration run where the RPMs are always above 3000. In those situations, the numbers flip the other way in favor of the G8x.

If you’re coming out of an S55 car and expect to be able to lazily punch it from 2000RPM and get the car moving semi-optimally, you will be disappointed. Sometimes I miss that character of my old F8x cars, but going to redline in the G8x is way more rewarding and exciting than doing the same in my old M4s, M3 CS, and M2Cs.
That reference to a flat torque curve being bad is, I think, the first time I've ever heard a flat torque curve being described as anything negative. Typically, I've always heard of it as a good thing. I'm not sure why he'd characterize it that way.
Appreciate 2
KoenG1417.50
02M3ForMe4255.50
      04-15-2021, 11:00 AM   #64
KoenG
Lieutenant Colonel
Belgium
1418
Rep
1,519
Posts

Drives: i4 eDrive40 & Cupra Leon 300
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Europe

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by av.7447 View Post
.

lol, what? Just FYI this same getrag unit was used on the F10 which had 680nm stock... if anything you will need to change your clutch before something will have a hint of breaking... they say that their torque limit is around 600nm, bullshit, I don’t remember too many F10s or F80s breaking anything even with aftermarket clutch. JB4 is for kids... we need to hack that ECU asap! 😅💪 ZF slush box 1/4 mile and 100-200 times will be annihilated with the 6 speed...
Why would they detune the manual from 650Nm to 550Nm then? Why all this effort to produce an equally priced MT version with a detuned engine....? Doens't make sense at all, would be a utterly dumb decision of product mngt.
Appreciate 0
      04-15-2021, 11:28 AM   #65
av.7447
Second Lieutenant
Canada
180
Rep
253
Posts

Drives: E39, E60 M5, F06 M6, F15, F90
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Ontario

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KoenG View Post
Why would they detune the manual from 650Nm to 550Nm then? Why all this effort to produce an equally priced MT version with a detuned engine....? Doens't make sense at all, would be a utterly dumb decision of product mngt.
Oh please.... You are saying it like there are only geniuses working in bmw product management and all decisions they make are the only correct ones... there are plenty of reasons for base M3/M4 to be detuned and we can speculate on them all we want. I can also ask, why, when a manual transmission can handle higher redline they didn’t raise the rev limiter for us on the base car... why why why, doesn’t make sense at all... are they stupid? 🤪
Appreciate 0
      04-15-2021, 11:41 AM   #66
opielm
Private First Class
United_States
88
Rep
102
Posts

Drives: G80 TBII 6MT
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: NJ

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KoenG View Post
Why would they detune the manual from 650Nm to 550Nm then? Why all this effort to produce an equally priced MT version with a detuned engine....? Doens't make sense at all, would be a utterly dumb decision of product mngt.
So many of these things are leased and they may be worried about wear and tear.
Appreciate 1
KoenG1417.50
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:42 AM.




g80
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST