[WXdrivefun]

Hi Everyone,

For the following video reviews:

The reviewer mentions the ZF8 speed is not as fun as DCT timeframe(7:30 - 8:10), even though shift adjustments can be made.

Like wise: (8:08- 8:45)


Seems like these video reviewers have a negative review of not having the engaging aggressive forward lurch feeling from the DCT when gear changing. But how is this actually a deal breaker/show stopper? Shouldn't a faster and smoother transmission change be better for the race track?


Finally for those current F80/F82 M3/M4 owners that have test drove the G80/G82 M3 and M4, any thoughts and comments comparing previous generation DCT vs ZF 8 Auto? Do you guys share the same negative criticism of the shift being too smooth as a race car and not engaging enough? opinions appreciated

I think they may have designed it this way more for daily use applications.

[Debtm3]

I prefer a dct and to me the torque converter transmission takes all the fun out of the car...

[solstice]

I’m pretty sure track times will confirm that the ZF does just fine in terms of track performance.

As for feel, well that’s going to be like DCT vs MT. Some will never go DCT or AT over MT due to the difference in experience independent of performance, the same will be true for DCT vs AT some will never go AT as long as they can find or hold onto a DCT. I’m lucky to not be held prisoner by any of them I appreciate the advantages of each and can live with the cons of each. Nowadays I’ll add. MT was the only acceptable game in town for 20+ years for me...AT used to be atrocious in every way but no longer.

[M090]

Just like the f10 to the f90, the f90 zf8 has less "feel" and less "engaging" compared to the f10 dct. This is expected to be the same with the g80 m3, as the f80 m3 dct was probably the most technologically advanced version of the dct.

[jkap27]

Originally Posted by M090

Just like the f10 to the f90, the f90 zf8 has less "feel" and less "engaging" compared to the f10 dct. This is expected to be the same with the g80 m3, as the f80 m3 dct was probably the most technologically advanced version of the dct.

Idk if 'feel' is the right word if you're explaining it to someone that has never driven a dct...were talking about lightning fast shifts with the dct vs very fast shifts with the zf8. Someone that hasn't experienced the dct would be thrilled with the zf8 I would think.

[AlexFL]

In Sport Plus/D3, the ZF8 does a pretty good job imitating a dual clutch. The shifts are pretty jerky and jolty.

[akkando]

Don't own an s58 so I can't give you first hand experience but you have to consider the below.

1. What are the actual shift speeds of up shifting. It's possible the zf8 is faster than the DCT here. This can be measured by how long it actually takes the car to go from one gear to another.

2. What are the down shift speeds. I think it's likely the DCT is still faster here.

3. How responsive is the transmission to user input? Meaning measure the the time between the user input on the paddle and the car actually changing gear. So not just the shift speed, but the actual time it takes the car to do what you want after you tell it to do so.

4. How does it feel? Sounds like the ZF8 is smoother. This seems better if that's what you're looking for and probably better on the track because it won't upset the car. However some people like the more mechanical and brutal feel of the DCT. Some might say it adds the right kind of character to the car.


We're pretty quickly approaching a time when electric cars are going to be affordable, quiet, and very fast. The case for an ICE car is going to be more about how it feels, and how it makes you feel, and not about the numbers, comfort, or ease of use.

[pcai]

Originally Posted by jkap27

Idk if 'feel' is the right word if you're explaining it to someone that has never driven a dct...were talking about lightning fast shifts with the dct vs very fast shifts with the zf8. Someone that hasn't experienced the dct would be thrilled with the zf8 I would think.

The ZF is no slouch at shifting. At S3 you would never think to yourself that this transmission needs to shift faster. I think most people are indeed talking about the lack of feel in the ZF. It is very fun and engaging to feel each shift like in the DCT, and having just a smooth auto box that can shift quickly but makes you feel nothing is not the same experience.

In American spec F90s they added some engagement to the shifting experience by making the burble tune pop during upshifts so the car is quite literally firing out those upshifts (even though that feeling is created from the exhaust popping and not actually from the transmission). The result is each upshift (even on medium throttle) is very pronounced, loud, and actually quite bassy as you can hear (and physically feel) the exhaust crackles. And high-RPM downshifts make the exhaust pop so hard you sometimes wonder how that exhaust is stock. That experience in the F90 can't be captured on video, it's one of those things you gotta experience IRL.

The problem in the G8X is they have largely neutered the burble tune (and in EU it's non-existent) during upshifts so it barely gives you any feedback from the exhaust, and you're left with the smooth shifts from the gearbox itself which is fast but slushed together.

[killhour]

I've driven all three transmission types (manual, TC, DCT) on the track, and the DCT can absolutely ruin your day if you aren't careful about full throttle upshifts during weight transfer (mostly accelerating out of a corner). It takes real experience to know when it's safe to do it without unsettling the car and breaking the rear loose. Smoother is absolutely faster on the track, but some people think of the violent shifts as adding character and excitement to the car. If I was competing in TT, I'd probably take the ZF. If I was trying to have fun at 80%, the DCT might be the way to go. Truly fast track cars are often not very fun to drive.

Objectively, the fastest possible transmission on a track should be a CVT, after all.

[M090]

Originally Posted by jkap27

Idk if 'feel' is the right word if you're explaining it to someone that has never driven a dct...were talking about lightning fast shifts with the dct vs very fast shifts with the zf8. Someone that hasn't experienced the dct would be thrilled with the zf8 I would think.

You are correct, if it's someone's first experience with the zf8, they would be thrilled with the way how the transmission functions. However, speaking on behalf of my own experience, owning a f10 m5, m2c and driven a f90 m5 for some time, the lack of feel from the zf8 is definitely present. There is just something with the way dct engages and shifts that the zf cannot replicate.

[killhour]

Originally Posted by M090

You are correct, if it's someone's first experience with the zf8, they would be thrilled with the way how the transmission functions. However, speaking on behalf of my own experience, owning a f10 m5, m2c and driven a f90 m5 for some time, the lack of feel from the zf8 is definitely present. There is just something with the way dct engages and shifts that the zf cannot replicate.

You probably already know this, but for the benefit of those who may not:

This "something" is the way the power is transmitted. In a TC transmission, the coupling between the engine and the gearing of the transmission is a fluid, which acts much like the fluid in a suspension damper. When the engine and the transmission are at mismatched speeds, there is an energy transfer from one side to another. In a TC transmission, this energy is mostly dissipated by generating turbulence in the fluid, which bleeds off as heat. In a DCT, this energy has nowhere to go except to be split between the engine and the wheels (if the clutches engaged slowly enough to bleed it off as heat, they would overheat and wear out prematurely - a common problem in early "manumatic" single clutch transmissions). Since the engine can only rev up or down so fast, the wheels end up taking a lot of that energy as a sudden shock - which in spirited driving, gives you that kick in the pants on upshifts... and on the track, can put a novice driver backwards into the tire wall.

Ideally, if you had an engine that had a ridiculously low inertial mass and could rev as quickly as the DCT can shift (such as the T.50, which can rev at an insane 28k RPM per second), you wouldn't notice a thing. From a purely engineering standpoint, it's an undesirable side effect. From an enthusiast's perspective, it's either a cool party trick or an annoyance, depending on your preferences and probably what kind of mood you're in that day.

Edit: I should also mention that TC transmissions have a party trick of their own - torque multiplication. Basically, the spinning fluid acts as an additional 'gear' when the output side is stopped or moving much more slowly than the input side. I'm glossing over the specifics, but the short version is this leads to an absolutely monstrous amount of torque off the line; much more than can be achieved just by dumping a clutch. This is likely the reason the RWD Comp launches in second gear. First gear would absolutely roast the tires thanks to the TC. I expect the xDrive version will be an absolute monster when it comes to launches and the TC is going to be a major reason for that. Whether that matters to you or not is subjective, but it's definitely a real advantage TCs have over DCTs and manuals.

[maddmatth]

Originally Posted by WXdrivefun

Seems like these video reviewers have a negative review of not having the engaging aggressive forward lurch feeling from the DCT when gear changing. But how is this actually a deal breaker/show stopper? Shouldn't a faster and smoother transmission change be better for the race track?

Your comment here seems to imply the ZF8 is faster. I believe the DCT changes gear in 50ms, vs 150ms of the ZF8 in the most aggressive settings.

I think the DCT 'lurch'/kick in the most aggressive setting is an intentional coded effect, basically a slight "clutch kick" to propel it forward and add some race car feeling. Consider it only happens in S3 mode, you can drop to to S2 and it's smooth.

I'd say the DCT would be slightly better on the race track, but the time difference is going to be incredibly minor. It would also be more fun though, IMO, and that's all the matters to be.

I feel like the move to ZF8 cheapens the M3/4, it's one less major bespoke component they have vs the non-M cars.

[RugbyBro]

Feel is literally the difference between a DCT and ZF8 in most to all contexts - you either like that feel or you don’t. ZF8 can shift almost as fast, the pure speed difference is imperceptible by most and would certainly be considered DCT fast by the standards of other DCTs or those of the recent past. The lack of feel has to do with clutch engagement and ZF8 cannot engage the clutches as hard as a DCT. AFAIK the TC is locked soon after launch so there is no TC involvement during the shift (at least in a performance context), so it comes down to the the clutches. DCT clutches can handle more abuse than planetary clutches so they can shift harder and faster, and don’t require momentarily reduced power between shifts... hence more immediacy and feel. I do agree with the sentiment that BMW seems to program their DCT to give a synthetically theatrical shift in S3, as anecdotally confirmed by a GTS DCT flash (still very hard and absolutely immediate, but a little less chiropractic than stock DCT). And not all shifts are neck snapping as the TCU will sense the directional load of the car and execute a butter smooth shift under any lateral load to avoid unsettling the car. Regardless, shifting in any situation is just more immediate with DCT than any ZF8 I’ve driven. However, I also agree that ZF8 is more than adequate for most people, and those who have not driven a good DCT are unlikely to know or care for the difference - and even having driven a good DCT, its merits may not be worth its idiosyncrasies depending on how the car will be used.

FWIW I really like ZF8 for most cars, it’s a fantastic transmission so y’all won’t be disappointed with it if you can appreciate it for what it is, which is a true auto that has DCT-esque speed without DCT quirks - really hard to do better than that. I think the disappointment for some reviewers, on the fence owners, and some likely owners will stem more from the fact that G8X shares a transmission with the more pedestrian BMWs, is the result of a painfully obvious cost cutting exercise by BMW, and doesn’t quite feel like a transmission that the S58 probably deserves - a rather speculative example of which is based on the S58 technical doc, it can spin to 7600 but seems to be capped at 7200 due to ZF8s limitations.

Edit: to clarify my first sentence a little, I should say “most to all typical contexts”. The immediacy of DCT and related benefits should be pretty self explanatory in a performance context, whether a normal owner is able to reap that reward tangibly probably depends on their abilities

[mirob]

SMGs, in particular II and III, were panned for the quick and brutal shifts that we're bitching at the ZF8 for not having.

[m630]

Who is “we”?

Luved SMG III with my S85, no better combo for raw, brutal power.

DCT was the compromise for an M, but fit the S55 well

Zf, unacceptable on cars being marketed as the ultimate sports coupes/sedans.

The car is not supposed to be smooth, it should be engaging. It may be acceptable on the M5, but not the M3/4

[mirob]

Originally Posted by m630

Who is “we”?

Luved SMG III with my S85, no better combo for raw, brutal power.

DCT was the compromise for an M, but fit the S55 well

Zf, unacceptable on cars being marketed as the ultimate sports coupes/sedans.

The car is not supposed to be smooth, it should be engaging. It may be acceptable on the M5, but not the M3/4

I was generally speaking. I loved the II in my E46 M3. Never understood the hate it got so I'm right there with you. I'm not mad at the ZF8 though, it is what it is.

[SYT_Shadow]

I really enjoy how the Quattroformaggio has been hailed as God's gift to mankind's driving ambitions, yet comes with a ZF.
When the F8X was being compared vs the Quattroformaggio I didn't see one of these clowns who is dying on the DCT hill say the Quattroformaggio was unacceptable due to using a ZF

Other brands use the ZF and everyone is happy. BMW does it and it's like planet Earth stops spinning due to the outrage.

For the record, I greatly prefer the DCT

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I really enjoy how the Quattroformaggio has been hailed as God's gift to mankind's driving ambitions, yet comes with a ZF.
When the F8X was being compared vs the Quattroformaggio I didn't see one of these clowns who is dying on the DCT hill say the Quattroformaggio was unacceptable due to using a ZF

Other brands use the ZF and everyone is happy. BMW does it and it's like planet Earth stops spinning due to the outrage.

For the record, I greatly prefer the DCT

To be fair, other competitors didn’t come from a DCT as good as MDCT. The four cheese pizza you reference was always topped with ZF8, and I’m sure if it had been topped with DCT everyone would be singing those praises. Audi DSG is okay and MB never had one in the C63 to begin with. ZF8 is good in other brands and it will be good in G8X, but I think some of us (including myself to certain extent) feel that DCT was a key differentiating factor from competitors. Regardless I’m leaving my final judgement for when I drive G8X, ZF8 might just be the right transmission for the car. I’m not going to judge one singular aspect without considering it in context of the whole experience

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

To be fair, other competitors didn’t come from a DCT as good as MDCT. The four cheese pizza you reference was always topped with ZF8, and I’m sure if it had been topped with DCT everyone would be singing those praises. Audi DSG is okay and MB never had one in the C63 to begin with. ZF8 is good in other brands and it will be good in G8X, but I think some of us (including myself to certain extent) feel that DCT was a key differentiating factor from competitors. Regardless I’m leaving my final judgement for when I drive G8X, ZF8 might just be the right transmission for the car. I’m not going to judge one singular aspect without considering it in context of the whole experience

Back in the day the F8X was directly compared to the Alfa and one had DCT and the other ZF. For all those who are now driving the car and clearly noticing the difference, I wonder where they were back when they reviewed the Alfa and had no problems with their ZF.

For example, unless Chris Harris' review of the Alfa had clear language in it that the ZF was nothing like the DCT and in fact made the car much less interesting, then I can swallow the same comment for the G8X. But did he?

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Back in the day the F8X was directly compared to the Alfa and one had DCT and the other ZF. For all those who are now driving the car and clearly noticing the difference, I wonder where they were back when they reviewed the Alfa and had no problems with their ZF.

For example, unless Chris Harris' review of the Alfa had clear language in it that the ZF was nothing like the DCT and in fact made the car much less interesting, then I can swallow the same comment for the G8X. But did he?

Hype would be my guess, within the context of the Alfa people probably didn’t notice the transmission since the steering is supposedly so sensitive and the car feels so lively? But I agree with your general point - I personally think reviews of ZFs have been wholly inconsistent over the past few years. There’s no good or bad ZFs in my experience, they all feel within a close tolerance of each other regardless of the programming and I would categorize it as a great transmission regardless of my preference for a dual clutch. Like okay, in a specific high performance context it can’t do the extra 10% that the DCT does, but I don’t know another planetary transmission that is so universally versatile and has such high performance while being so readily available in a supply chain. It’s definitely amusing seeing the double standard on ZF play out across cars/manufacturers - like it’s the same trans that’s getting all the praise in all the FCA, JLR, and BMWs of the last 5-8 years. My other thought tho is we may be getting to the point as enthusiasts where we’re starting to have a ZF hangover because it is so universally utilized. I want some more choice or uniqueness between my relative options but this is just the world we live in now - in 10-15 years we probably won’t even have transmissions anymore.

Yeah CH was wholly swooned by the Alfa because of its personality, he even said in his TG review that he’d take it over the F80 (which he considered the best M3 ever made at the time). I’d love to drive the ole’ QuattroFromagio one of these days to try to understand the hype. I’m pretty curious about ZF there because I keep hearing they programmed it to replicate some jerkiness at low speed or something like that - which is perplexing to me since the benefit to ZF is how good it is in normal driving

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

Hype would be my guess, within the context of the Alfa people probably didn’t notice the transmission since the steering is supposedly so sensitive and the car feels so lively? But I agree with your general point - I personally think reviews of ZFs have been wholly inconsistent over the past few years. There’s no good or bad ZFs in my experience, they all feel within a close tolerance of each other regardless of the programming and I would categorize it as a great transmission regardless of my preference for a dual clutch. Like okay, in a specific high performance context it can’t do the extra 10% that the DCT does, but I don’t know another planetary transmission that is so universally versatile and has such high performance while being so readily available in a supply chain. It’s definitely amusing seeing the double standard on ZF play out across cars/manufacturers - like it’s the same trans that’s getting all the praise in all the FCA, JLR, and BMWs of the last 5-8 years. My other thought tho is we may be getting to the point as enthusiasts where we’re starting to have a ZF hangover because it is so universally utilized. I want some more choice or uniqueness between my relative options but this is just the world we live in now - in 10-15 years we probably won’t even have transmissions anymore.

Yeah CH was wholly swooned by the Alfa because of its personality, he even said in his TG review that he’d take it over the F80 (which he considered the best M3 ever made at the time). I’d love to drive the ole’ QuattroFromagio one of these days to try to understand the hype. I’m pretty curious about ZF there because I keep hearing they programmed it to replicate some jerkiness at low speed or something like that - which is perplexing to me since the benefit to ZF is how good it is in normal driving

In the M5c the ZF felt really good. I'd have to drive a dct back to back to feel a substantial difference

I bet the ZF will work just fine at the track. The 'bam' people like feeling with the dct during shifts is actually a negative at the track

[solstice]

It would be interesting to see how many would have ticked a usual $3k M-DCT option if it was available. With ZF you not only get a better around town transmission with similar track performance you get $3k to spend on options or mods. That is if you can handle the “feel” of it and don’t want an MT.

In terms of M uniqueness of the DCT, no one remembers the E92 335 iS huh? It was that times M performance equivalent and it had...a DCT.