[Cliff Bear]

ICE cars won't be banned to own in the U.S. - although they will no longer be produced - so it's the natural life cycle of ICE cars that will organically remove them from the roads. Gas stations will become few and far between so that will probably be a big pain. Gas supply and demand will probably remain in balance so I don't see dramatically different price fluctuations than we've seen over the past 30 years. Be prepared to get dirty looks from 9/10 people labeling you as a climate terrorist.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by Cliff Bear

ICE cars won't be banned to own in the U.S. - although they will no longer be produced - so it's the natural life cycle of ICE cars that will organically remove them from the roads. Gas stations will become few and far between so that will probably be a big pain. Gas supply and demand will probably remain in balance so I don't see dramatically different price fluctuations than we've seen over the past 30 years. Be prepared to get dirty looks from 9/10 people labeling you as a climate terrorist.

Lol. I am 51 years old. I plan to live to be at least 95 years old. These thing you predicted will never happen in my lifetime. At least not in the United States. EV will make a good college try and then balance itself out. I doubt it will ever get past 20% of total automobiles on the road. Not unless our other friends prediction a couple of posts before yours come to pass and that is massive massive massive technology improvements as far as charging time and availability. If that doesn’t happen then even I’ll be wrong about the 20%. Do you people really think the oil industry is just going to rollover and play dead especially since they know for a fact automobiles don’t contribute crap to this climate change fantasy? It’s not going to happen. I like the idea of electric vehicles. I think some of them are pretty cool. And there’s nothing wrong with alternatives. Perhaps some genius engineers can also come up with other ways to power cars besides ICE and EV. What I have a problem with is fantasy world politics causing governments to force private companies into something that’s not best for their consumers. I’m extremely uncomfortable with the amount of people I see especially here that don’t have a problem with it. What makes you think they’ll stop with ICE?? Maybe one day they will control what food you eat especially if it’s not healthy for you. Maybe they’ll come up with a points system for individuals to control their diet. Bloodwork is good so you can have pizza this week. Blood work is bad only vegetables.

[Cliff Bear]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Lol. I am 51 years old. I plan to live to be at least 95 years old. These thing you predicted will never happen in my lifetime. At least not in the United States. EV will make a good college try and then balance itself out. I doubt it will ever get past 20% of total automobiles on the road. Not unless our other friends prediction a couple of posts before yours come to pass and that is massive massive massive technology improvements as far as charging time and availability. If that doesn’t happen then even I’ll be wrong about the 20%. Do you people really think the oil industry is just going to rollover and play dead especially since they know for a fact automobiles don’t contribute crap to this climate change fantasy? It’s not going to happen. I like the idea of electric vehicles. I think some of them are pretty cool. And there’s nothing wrong with alternatives. Perhaps some genius engineers can also come up with other ways to power cars besides ICE and EV. What I have a problem with is fantasy world politics causing governments to force private companies into something that’s not best for their consumers. I’m extremely uncomfortable with the amount of people I see especially here that don’t have a problem with it. What makes you think they’ll stop with ICE?? Maybe one day they will control what food you eat especially if it’s not healthy for you. Maybe they’ll come up with a points system for individuals to control their diet. Bloodwork is good so you can have pizza this week. Blood work is bad only vegetables.

I don't think we're in much disagreement at all except the auto manufacturers can decide (and some have) to produce only EV by a certain date. Of course that can change but unless the oil companies buy the auto companies, the auto producers will have their own incentives regarding EV vs ICE. State and local governments can certainly offer tax incentives for EV and disincentives for ICE. I live in a part of country that hasn't seen a tax it doesn't love so an ICE disincentive tax would not surprise me at all. Personally, I don't think the grid here will ever be able to handle 80% EV unless we switch over to nuclear (which I'm a proponent of).

Then when hydrogen becomes the better technology, we can do this all over again.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by Cliff Bear

I don't think we're in much disagreement at all except the auto manufacturers can decide (and some have) to produce only EV by a certain date. Of course that can change but unless the oil companies buy the auto companies, the auto producers will have their own incentives regarding EV vs ICE. State and local governments can certainly offer tax incentives for EV and disincentives for ICE. I live in a part of country that hasn't seen a tax it doesn't love so an ICE disincentive tax would not surprise me at all. Personally, I don't think the grid here will ever be able to handle 80% EV unless we switch over to nuclear (which I'm a proponent of).

Then when hydrogen becomes the better technology, we can do this all over again.

I agree with pretty much everything you just wrote especially the part about the grid not being able to handle it. You are absolutely right. At the end of the day all I ask for is that capitalism take its normal course. Free of interference from government. Supposedly Mercedes-Benz will not produce another eight cylinder C63. Or any eight cylinder vehicle. We will find out fairly quickly who is supporting the consumer better, Mercedes Benz or BMW. People will vote with their wallet.

[MadBimmeRad]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

Wait time out. So you're saying if gas prices is 10 dollars a gallon, you're willing to pay that in order to keep your ICE car? lol How often will you sustain paying such a huge penalty in order to keep what you want?

So what happens when they raise it to 15 dollars a gallon? You're going to keep buying it as a way to say, "yeah keep jacking the price i'll still drive my ICE car. Take that!!!"??

.

I hate to break it to you, but there are countries where they are already paying $10/gal - I live in Australia and pay $2.10ish per litre which makes it damn near $10/gal

So to answer your question, yes, even if it goes to $50/gal, people would still pay it because what is the alternative? You can't run ICE on horse manure, you need petrolatum for that.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by MadBimmeRad

I hate to break it to you, but there are countries where they are already paying $10/gal - I live in Australia and pay $2.10ish per litre which makes it damn near $10/gal

So to answer your question, yes, even if it goes to $50/gal, people would still pay it because what is the alternative? You can't run ICE on horse manure, you need petrolatum for that.

Again, you're coaching what you know TODAY.

Obviously it won't be 10 dollars today, and 50 tomorrow. Because you don't have time to alter your lifestyle. Yes you WILL have to pay that.

What i'm saying is, AS TIME GOES ON IT WILL IMPROVE.

Just wait. Bookmark this thread and we'll observe the progress. We'll do it in 2 year increments.

Check back in this thread in december 2023, then we'll revisit in december 2025 and you'll see the difference.

Just because we have to rely on the oil supply now, doesn't mean we will need to in the future. Hence the whole "ban".

THEY have a different plan for us. Sorry to say but it's coming. Just enjoy the toys you have now.

[MadBimmeRad]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

Again, you're coaching what you know TODAY.

Obviously it won't be 10 dollars today, and 50 tomorrow. Because you don't have time to alter your lifestyle. Yes you WILL have to pay that.

What i'm saying is, AS TIME GOES ON IT WILL IMPROVE.

Just wait. Bookmark this thread and we'll observe the progress. We'll do it in 2 year increments.

Check back in this thread in december 2023, then we'll revisit in december 2025 and you'll see the difference.

Just because we have to rely on the oil supply now, doesn't mean we will need to in the future. Hence the whole "ban".

THEY have a different plan for us. Sorry to say but it's coming. Just enjoy the toys you have now.

Indeed, the only constant in the universe is change.

Australia, per head of capita, is one of the most polluting countries in the world. Why does a country with only 25mill population have such a terrible record? Because we have 300 million sheep and cattle. Why do we need so many? Because the world demands it.

My point is, when you can stop people eating meat, you'll stop them using petroleum.

The whole EV Vs ICE argument is flawed imho. EV is not pollution-free; far from it. However, there is political capital behind it and that's what's driving it.

If this debate was purely about pollution and the environment, you'd know less than 5% of pollution is to do with vehicular activity and the bulk of it is from industry and agriculture. Are they going to make everything electric? No chance in hell.

I know farmers who are driving tractors they bought in the 80s and will still be driving them in 15 years.

Add to that the underdeveloped and developing nations; they absolutely depend on petroleum driving their economic roadmap. Yes, in US, Australia and the like, you may be able to push electrification with greater success to some degree, but majority of the world population lives outside of those demographics.

I'm not anti-EV, I'm anti bull$&@t. Expecting EVs to save the planet from pollution is like believing in unicorns; sweet but unrealistic.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by MadBimmeRad

Indeed, the only constant in the universe is change.

Australia, per head of capita, is one of the most polluting countries in the world. Why does a country with only 25mill population have such a terrible record? Because we have 300 million sheep and cattle. Why do we need so many? Because the world demands it.

My point is, when you can stop people eating meat, you'll stop them using petroleum.

The whole EV Vs ICE argument is flawed imho. EV is not pollution-free; far from it. However, there is political capital behind it and that's what's driving it.

If this debate was purely about pollution and the environment, you'd know less than 5% of pollution is to do with vehicular activity and the bulk of it is from industry and agriculture. Are they going to make everything electric? No chance in hell.

I know farmers who are driving tractors they bought in the 80s and will still be driving them in 15 years.

Add to that the underdeveloped and developing nations; they absolutely depend on petroleum driving their economic roadmap. Yes, in US, Australia and the like, you may be able to push electrification with greater success to some degree, but majority of the world population lives outside of those demographics.

I'm not anti-EV, I'm anti bull$&@t. Expecting EVs to save the planet from pollution is like believing in unicorns; sweet but unrealistic.

So it's basically like this.

You worked at your job, say for 10 years.

They hire someone, with little experience, or not as much as you, and appoint him manager.

You being there 10 years, should at least get a consideration in that position. But they hired someone from the outside to fill in the manager role.

What do you do? Quit? Or stay? Do you quit because you feel bad you didn't get the job and some newbie did? Or stay and swallow your pride and hope that new guy does a good job at managing the place you worked at for 10 years?

The issue with a lot of the arguments towards this 2035 ban is again, it's not so much about what is right or wrong for the environment. We actually have enough oil supply to last us generations. This isn't about environmental climate control. It's about government control.

We can't do anything about it HOWEVER we can help our love and hobby of the ICE car in the meantime.

That's why i said in order to preserve the ICE market, the only way IS TO buy an EV.

There was a reason why GM was able to put out a corvette z06, for the year 2023 with a NATURALLY ASPIRATED engine making 670hp. And it's all because of their EV lineup.

All other manufacturers have downsized to smaller displacement turbo engines. Some exotic car makers are dropping their V12's for EV. The next acura NSX is going to be EV. Ferrari will be going EV.

EV, something people see as only commuter cars, yet the most expensive prestigious brands are already going EV. Think about it.

I love ICE as much as everyone here.

I am on the wait list for the C8 z06 and i'm number 134 or something on the list. I am due for a C8 z06 next winter if they start production summer of 2022. I could have easily put my name for a tesla plaid, which is an INSANE car, and unbeatable missile no matter who's lining up with you, yet i chose an NA car making 670hp. I love engine sounds. It's the last of it's kind. GM making EV's and people buying them is one of the reasons how GM was able to make a z06 with an NA monster engine.

Buying EV's will actually help our ICE market.

[BMWRacer523]

y'all still discussing this? LOL I was out burning some carbon in my ICE beast haha!!

[BGM-M3COMP]

I had this forum open on one tab, and checking out teslas in another tab

Gotta save our ICE market!!! LOL

[Chicane_]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

So it's basically like this.

You worked at your job, say for 10 years.

They hire someone, with little experience, or not as much as you, and appoint him manager.

You being there 10 years, should at least get a consideration in that position. But they hired someone from the outside to fill in the manager role.

What do you do? Quit? Or stay? Do you quit because you feel bad you didn't get the job and some newbie did? Or stay and swallow your pride and hope that new guy does a good job at managing the place you worked at for 10 years?

The issue with a lot of the arguments towards this 2035 ban is again, it's not so much about what is right or wrong for the environment. We actually have enough oil supply to last us generations. This isn't about environmental climate control. It's about government control.

We can't do anything about it HOWEVER we can help our love and hobby of the ICE car in the meantime.

That's why i said in order to preserve the ICE market, the only way IS TO buy an EV.

There was a reason why GM was able to put out a corvette z06, for the year 2023 with a NATURALLY ASPIRATED engine making 670hp. And it's all because of their EV lineup.

All other manufacturers have downsized to smaller displacement turbo engines. Some exotic car makers are dropping their V12's for EV. The next acura NSX is going to be EV. Ferrari will be going EV.

EV, something people see as only commuter cars, yet the most expensive prestigious brands are already going EV. Think about it.

I love ICE as much as everyone here.

I am on the wait list for the C8 z06 and i'm number 134 or something on the list. I am due for a C8 z06 next winter if they start production summer of 2022. I could have easily put my name for a tesla plaid, which is an INSANE car, and unbeatable missile no matter who's lining up with you, yet i chose an NA car making 670hp. I love engine sounds. It's the last of it's kind. GM making EV's and people buying them is one of the reasons how GM was able to make a z06 with an NA monster engine.

Buying EV's will actually help our ICE market.

Are EVs actually profitable for GM right now? I highly doubt it. The Z06 was funded by profits from their gas burning pickup trucks.

Also, more people purchasing EVs will actually accelerate the extinction of ICE vehicles, not help preserve them. We are near the tipping point where economies of scale will make EVs cheaper to produce than ICE vehicles. EVs will then become cheaper to purchase and that will be the final nail in the ICE coffin.

Automakers have already suspended development of new ICE powertrains and will ride their current units into the sunset until they can no longer meet regulations or cost becomes prohibitively highly due to a collapse in volume.

[MadBimmeRad]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

The issue with a lot of the arguments towards this 2035 ban is again, it's not so much about what is right or wrong for the environment. We actually have enough oil supply to last us generations. This isn't about environmental climate control. It's about government control.

We can't do anything about it.

You know something mate, we are saying the same thing in two different ways.

Absolutely, it is about control. Absolutely, it's about politics.

And absolutely, it's absurd from beginning to the end that we, the people, have to bend over for those who are meant to be serving us but somehow are instead screwing us.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by Chicane_

Are EVs actually profitable for GM right now? I highly doubt it. The Z06 was funded by profits from their gas burning pickup trucks.

Also, more people purchasing EVs will actually accelerate the extinction of ICE vehicles, not help preserve them. We are near the tipping point where economies of scale will make EVs cheaper to produce than ICE vehicles. EVs will then become cheaper to purchase and that will be the final nail in the ICE coffin.

Automakers have already suspended development of new ICE powertrains and will ride their current units into the sunset until they can no longer meet regulations or cost becomes prohibitively highly due to a collapse in volume.

So car makers receive carbon credits when the manufacture efficient engines (like transitioning into smaller displacement turbo engines rather than staying large or NA etc) and they earn carbon credit multipliers if they manufacture electric cars or at least hybrids (plug in hybrids) etc.

I feel that in order for the C8 lineup to stay within plan (sorta), GM had to do make EV's or hybrids for that to happen. Otherwise we'd probably see later in the C8 generation a full EV corvette.

It's sort of like how the government wants everyone to get vaxxed. So we can all go back to "normal". Do as they say and everything will be ok.

You can't stop this. Buying an EV will help the ICE market. Otherwise you can just sit on the sidelines and waste the years away as it takes over anyway.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by MadBimmeRad

You know something mate, we are saying the same thing in two different ways.

Absolutely, it is about control. Absolutely, it's about politics.

And absolutely, it's absurd from beginning to the end that we, the people, have to bend over for those who are meant to be serving us but somehow are instead screwing us.

Definitely.

I, for one, DO NOT believe this is better for our "environment". It's not about that at all.

It's all about control. Pair that with how exciting EV can be if people give it a chance, then yeah i'm all for EV in the near future.

And i'll own my ICE toys for as long as i can. Or until they turn every gas station into charging stations lol

[madpistol]

I wish the government would stop pushing this agenda of trying to get rid of ICE cars and instead let natural progress take its course. In the last few years, EVs have gotten significantly better and will continue to get better as time goes on, but even now, with some models coming out with 500+ miles of range on a single charge, we all know that isn't enough. We all know that the issue is all about infrastructure first, and technology second. Here in the United States, our entire economy is built around the ICE vehicle. To remove that too quickly will destroy our economy. There has to be a natural transition from ICE to EV. The fact is that you can take a car to a gas station, fill up in around 3-4 minutes, and you're good for another 400 miles... and those gas stations are plentiful. With EVs, you have to wait for a minimum of 30 minutes between charges... that's just unacceptable. We have to find a better way if we are to make EVs sustainable in the future.

Also, reading that ICEs will be phased out in the coming years makes me want to buy an M3 Competition at the end of my M340i lease. I would love to sell it 5 years down the road as one of the last great ICE M cars. Might even get the xDrive variant, just so I can go toe-to-toe with some of those high-strung EVs.

[Chicane_]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

So car makers receive carbon credits when the manufacture efficient engines (like transitioning into smaller displacement turbo engines rather than staying large or NA etc) and they earn carbon credit multipliers if they manufacture electric cars or at least hybrids (plug in hybrids) etc.

I feel that in order for the C8 lineup to stay within plan (sorta), GM had to do make EV's or hybrids for that to happen. Otherwise we'd probably see later in the C8 generation a full EV corvette.

It's sort of like how the government wants everyone to get vaxxed. So we can all go back to "normal". Do as they say and everything will be ok.

You can't stop this. Buying an EV will help the ICE market. Otherwise you can just sit on the sidelines and waste the years away as it takes over anyway.

Being in the industry, I can tell you that automakers are already planning their products and product mix for 2030. What we buy now will not significantly alter their long term plans. High level decisions on capex and engineering resource allocation for the next 5 years have already been made.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by Chicane_

Being in the industry, I can tell you that automakers are already planning their products and product mix for 2030. What we buy now will not significantly alter their long term plans. High level decisions on capex and engineering resource allocation for the next 5 years have already been made.

Ok. So you, or we can do nothing and wait for 2030 or 2035 and watch the inevitable.

Or, if you're a fan of automotive evolution, and our fate of this industry, buy into EV now and be a step closer to our future.

Some people don't like it. Some people do.

I happen to like EV so i'm riding along. Even if i say i'll never buy an EV in the future will not be realistic, because again, we will indirectly be forced to.

I'm fine with change. Change makes you grow.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by madpistol

I wish the government would stop pushing this agenda of trying to get rid of ICE cars and instead let natural progress take its course. In the last few years, EVs have gotten significantly better and will continue to get better as time goes on, but even now, with some models coming out with 500+ miles of range on a single charge, we all know that isn't enough. We all know that the issue is all about infrastructure first, and technology second. Here in the United States, our entire economy is built around the ICE vehicle. To remove that too quickly will destroy our economy. There has to be a natural transition from ICE to EV. The fact is that you can take a car to a gas station, fill up in around 3-4 minutes, and you're good for another 400 miles... and those gas stations are plentiful. With EVs, you have to wait for a minimum of 30 minutes between charges... that's just unacceptable. We have to find a better way if we are to make EVs sustainable in the future.

Also, reading that ICEs will be phased out in the coming years makes me want to buy an M3 Competition at the end of my M340i lease. I would love to sell it 5 years down the road as one of the last great ICE M cars. Might even get the xDrive variant, just so I can go toe-to-toe with some of those high-strung EVs.

I only had my M3C a month and i'm really liking this car.

I can see myself buying an x-drive once this lease is over and getting another M3CX with all the revisions later on to keep for a longer term. Or to the very least, lease another M3C, but x-drive this time. It's a good car. But the next generation will NOT have the 6cyl. Everyone is going hybrid/EV.

[Chicane_]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

Ok. So you, or we can do nothing and wait for 2030 or 2035 and watch the inevitable.

Or, if you're a fan of automotive evolution, and our fate of this industry, buy into EV now and be a step closer to our future.

Some people don't like it. Some people do.

I happen to like EV so i'm riding along. Even if i say i'll never buy an EV in the future will not be realistic, because again, we will indirectly be forced to.

I'm fine with change. Change makes you grow.

I don't understand what you are saying. I'm not waiting and watching, I'm buying my favourite new pure ICE models now because I know they're being phased out by hybrids and EVs.

My choices are:

A) buy cars I want that are at the peak/end of their life cycle

or:

B) buy cars I don't want that are using first generation technology and soon to be outdated

My plan is to buy an EV daily driver in 3-5 years (likely an EQG or Taycan replacement).

[Chicane_]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

I only had my M3C a month and i'm really liking this car.

I can see myself buying an x-drive once this lease is over and getting another M3CX with all the revisions later on to keep for a longer term. Or to the very least, lease another M3C, but x-drive this time. It's a good car. But the next generation will NOT have the 6cyl. Everyone is going hybrid/EV.

The Inline 6 and V8 will stick around until 2030, albeit paired with a hybrid system. BMW has said they've engineered the combustion process to be Euro 7 compliant.

https://www.bmwblog.com/2021/11/04/b...oss-confirmed/

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by Chicane_

I don't understand what you are saying. I'm not waiting and watching, I'm buying my favourite new pure ICE models now because I know they're being phased out by hybrids and EVs.

My choices are:

A) buy cars I want that are at the peak/end of their life cycle

or:

B) buy cars I don't want that are using first generation technology and soon to be outdated

My plan is to buy an EV daily driver in 3-5 years (likely an EQG or Taycan replacement).

That's what i meant. I'm not suggesting you have to visit a dealer tomorrow to get an EV. Just gauging where your mental outlook on this subject is at.

I happen to like tesla and their build quality has improved so much for the 2021MY. I just can't decide whether to get a 3 or a Y. Most likely the Y. As i will also put the car on TURO to pay off the lease payment.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by Chicane_

The Inline 6 and V8 will stick around until 2030, albeit paired with a hybrid system. BMW has said they've engineered the combustion process to be Euro 7 compliant.

https://www.bmwblog.com/2021/11/04/b...oss-confirmed/

So i don't know if i'm reading the article right, which shows a date of november 2021 but at the beginning it said, march 2018. Is that when the interview took place?

Plus, with AMG canning the V8 for a hybrid 4, and with how stict EU regulations are, you really think they're not going to follow?

So your opinion is next gen the next M3 will have a 6cyl, plus twin turbo with a hybrid system? I don't see that happening one bit.