[NightWriter]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

Just remember, most people see cars as appliances. With ZERO emotional attachment to them.

Indeed. Enthusiasts who lurk in these forums are definitely in the minority. I'm proud to be amongst this group, but most people think we're nuts. When I told my wife a few years back I wanted to get a small/convertible as a weekend car--our third--it was like trying to explain to her why we needed another dishwasher. It just didn't compute ... Let alone for politicians, especially braindead ones who reflexively embrace EVs as the feel-good solution to all environmental challenges. Trying to explain and defend the joys of mechanical precision, a refined exhaust note, and a well-balanced chassis to these people is an exercise in futility.

[ElHeffe]

Originally Posted by Murse85

This will be my first M car as well the most expensive. It’ll be something I’ll have to keep for at least 6-7 years.. However, with all this news about ice becoming banned by 2030-2035 it is slightly concerning due to uncertainty. Will gas prices sky rocket? Will resale value of ice cars be 0? I’ll eventually sell my M3 for an ev if things start shifting in that direction but whose going to buy it if it is obsolete.
Is it a good idea to spend almost 100k on a car thats going extinct in the next 5-10 year? Do any of you guys have similar thoughts? Or am I overthinking. I can afford this car but at the same time I’m not rich enough to where I can just buy however many cars I like. Maybe I’m just a worrier lol!!

The headlines I've are seen are NEW ICE cars being banned by those years. People are keeping their cars longer than ever before. There'll be quite a few ICE beaters out there!

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by jimbethesda

communist country, LOL.

Look up externalities, it's a weakness of the free market system that can be rectified by forcing the external costs/benefits to be internalized. The best way to do that on this topic is with a carbon tax instead of mandates. You can cut taxes on income to balance the net take. But Tax is a bad word. Even if you cut income taxes so that the net take by the government is the same. Everyone would just hear "blah, blah, blah, more expensive gas".

What did we do instead? Poorly written mpg standards that helped to create the minivan and then the big SUV. Subsidies for Teslas. Both were awful policy decisions.

If you don't internalize negative or positive externalities, you will over consume some things, and under consume others. This is consistent with capitalism. More than consistent, it's required if you want to maximize the potential of capitalism.

While this is a simple concept, it escapes most people. So politicians feed off of that and create sub optimal policies. In this case, future bans on ICE.

I personally don't like bans or mandates. Better outcomes can be achieved through economic penalties and incentives. The likelihood of that in the US is remote, so bans are the only choice.

I don't really believe some of that though.

Car sales dictate what a car maker will put out, continue to sell, or discontinue.

There is a reason why we don't get wagons here anymore. Is the M3 wagon coming to north america? We already have an M3 SUV, it's called the X3 lol. That's what people want.

Tesla is a pioneer in this whole EV race. And while other car makers are following along, they're still 10 years behind tesla. When ford laughed at tesla back then, now we're trying to play catch up with tesla now.

You may or may not be right about your point on bans and mandates however no one is said tomorrow you can not drive your ICE car. Last year they announced 2035. So they're giving you 15 years to prepare.

But think about it. When summer time rolls around, what happens? Gas prices go up. Because they know people drive more. We have seen this for how long now? But we already expect this. They can make this matters worse if and when they really want to.

No one said when tomorrow marks january 1st, 2035 you can not drive your ICE car. I'm saying what they will do is indirectly make you. By raising gas prices, or car insurance, etc. It will make sense financially to just switch over.

[Chicane_]

Originally Posted by ElHeffe

The headlines I've are seen are NEW ICE cars being banned by those years. People are keeping their cars longer than ever before. There'll be quite a few ICE beaters out there!

Yep. For example, Porsche has said the next Cayenne and 718 platforms will be all electric. Knowing this, I've placed my order for a Cayenne Turbo GT and am looking to grab a GT4 RS which I'll probably own for quite a while. I love driving and know the EV replacements will not be satisfying to me, but I know myself and others in this forum represent a small segment of the motoring public.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by NightWriter

Indeed. Enthusiasts who lurk in these forums are definitely in the minority. I'm proud to be amongst this group, but most people think we're nuts. When I told my wife a few years back I wanted to get a small/convertible as a weekend car--our third--it was like trying to explain to her why we needed another dishwasher. It just didn't compute ... Let alone for politicians, especially braindead ones who reflexively embrace EVs as the feel-good solution to all environmental challenges. Trying to explain and defend the joys of mechanical precision, a refined exhaust note, and a well-balanced chassis to these people is an exercise in futility.

I am a car enthusiast just like everyone here. I been into cars since i was like 5. My parents have VHS tapes of me playing with the hot wheels toy cars on the couch and shit lol.

But this is how automotive evolution works. When fuel injection came around, did the carb guys freak out? Of course. In fact carb's are still being used today, but those old school muscle car guys. And some convert to fuel injection.

To the people that matter, they do not care for a car enthusiast's needs. Remember when fast and furious 1 came out? Weeks following that, everyone put a big ass muffler on their car. People in camry's, fucking pathfinders and anything with an engine, someone put a jcwhitney 80 dollar muffler on.

What happened? After a couple of years, that fad died out. And everyone got rid of those cars or put the stock exhaust back on.

Automotive performance is not something everyone wants or even cares about. And i see more of these types of people each day. When back in the mid late 2000s, everyone was asking me about my cars, when is the next car show, what car should they start with as a project etc, all turned into buying the cheapest econo car they can get to get from point A to point B.

If you take 100 people and ask them if they care about performance and only 10 of them said yes, trust me, to the people that matter, they'll make a car based off what the other 90 people want.

[NightWriter]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

... no one is said tomorrow you can not drive your ICE car. Last year they announced 2035. So they're giving you 15 years to prepare.

We're a couple weeks from 2035 being 13 years out. See? Per the thread title, it's happening sooner than you expect

[Murse85]

Upon researching other car manufacturers, it seems like they are doing their last dance on ICE cars. Redesigned 2024 Audi A4, refresh mustang gt, 400z, merc CLE, SL, IS 500, r36 (speculation), possible mazda rx9?, refreshed challenger, Civic type R, integra type S and possibly many more. Seeing this makes me feel a little better. If ICE ban is a soon to be plan then manufacturers will not be introducing these in the next year or two. Assuming these have a 7 year life span it'll be almost 2030 before these will be discontinued. That being said I doubt EV advocate related gas increase will happen during these years. What I do think and hope is that by 2030 is when the evolution will happen. Otherwise what is the point of all these new ICE cars coming out in the next year or two.

However the biggest question is....when it comes 2030 who will buy our ICE cars? I am here to keep my M3 for at least 7 years. What I cannot stomach is the possibility that I might have to get rid of it with nothing in return. 100k being depreciated to zero!!! Do we junk it? Keep driving it till the wheels fall off? who knows.

[jimbethesda]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

I don't really believe some of that though.

Car sales dictate what a car maker will put out, continue to sell, or discontinue.

There is a reason why we don't get wagons here anymore. Is the M3 wagon coming to north america? We already have an M3 SUV, it's called the X3 lol. That's what people want.

Tesla is a pioneer in this whole EV race. And while other car makers are following along, they're still 10 years behind tesla. When ford laughed at tesla back then, now we're trying to play catch up with tesla now.

You may or may not be right about your point on bans and mandates however no one is said tomorrow you can not drive your ICE car. Last year they announced 2035. So they're giving you 15 years to prepare.

But think about it. When summer time rolls around, what happens? Gas prices go up. Because they know people drive more. We have seen this for how long now? But we already expect this. They can make this matters worse if and when they really want to.

No one said when tomorrow marks january 1st, 2035 you can not drive your ICE car. I'm saying what they will do is indirectly make you. By raising gas prices, or car insurance, etc. It will make sense financially to just switch over.

Yeah, people buy what they want. That's my point. Mandates force some people to buy what they don't want. $10/gallon gas changes what they want. Mandates fight the free market, internalizing externalities through a carbon tax embraces it. Gas at 10/gallon, vs bans, preserves a market for ICE while also changing the wants of most others. Win-win.

As far as current consumer preferences, yes, SUVs are embedded in our culture. It wasn't always like that. Poorly designed mpg rules set us on this path. Google Lee Iacocca and the minivan. He found a loophole in the mpg regs. Bye-bye more efficient wagons, hello gas guzzling behemoths.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by jimbethesda

Yeah, people buy what they want. That's my point. Mandates force some people to buy what they don't want. $10/gallon gas changes what they want. Mandates fight the free market, internalizing externalities through a carbon tax embraces it. Gas at 10/gallon, vs bans, preserves a market for ICE while also changing the wants of most others. Win-win.

As far as current consumer preferences, yes, SUVs are embedded in our culture. It wasn't always like that. Poorly designed mpg rules set us on this path. Google Lee Iacocca and the minivan. He found a loophole in the mpg regs. Bye-bye more efficient wagons, hello gas guzzling behemoths.

Wait time out. So you're saying if gas prices is 10 dollars a gallon, you're willing to pay that in order to keep your ICE car? lol How often will you sustain paying such a huge penalty in order to keep what you want?

So what happens when they raise it to 15 dollars a gallon? You're going to keep buying it as a way to say, "yeah keep jacking the price i'll still drive my ICE car. Take that!!!"??

What happens if they jack registration to keep your ICE car on the road? What about insurance? Stricter noise regulations? Remember we drive performance cars, our cars while tame, aren't exactly the most quiet either.

I believe the only way to preserve the ICE market IS TO buy an EV.

Oil companies will not lose the money yet i don't think anyone is stopping what the government wants.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by NightWriter

We're a couple weeks from 2035 being 13 years out. See? Per the thread title, it's happening sooner than you expect

I'm not worried one bit. I love new technology.

If anything, everyone should focus on hybrid technology rather than "forcing" people to go EV. I like both ideas.

But as a tesla fan, i have a soft spot for EV. They work.

[jimbethesda]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

Wait time out. So you're saying if gas prices is 10 dollars a gallon, you're willing to pay that in order to keep your ICE car? lol How often will you sustain paying such a huge penalty in order to keep what you want?

So what happens when they raise it to 15 dollars a gallon? You're going to keep buying it as a way to say, "yeah keep jacking the price i'll still drive my ICE car. Take that!!!"??

What happens if they jack registration to keep your ICE car on the road? What about insurance? Stricter noise regulations? Remember we drive performance cars, our cars while tame, aren't exactly the most quiet either.

I believe the only way to preserve the ICE market IS TO buy an EV.

Oil companies will not lose the money yet i don't think anyone is stopping what the government wants.

I’ll try to answer you point by point.

“So you're saying if gas prices is 10 dollars a gallon, you're willing to pay that in order to keep your ICE car? lol How often will you sustain paying such a huge penalty in order to keep what you want?”

**I’ll give you 2 answers. If gas were $10 today, I would still have bought my G83. I don’t drive that much, so I can easily afford the increase. Also, there are currently no EV convertibles.

Fast forward 10 years. My answer is I don’t know. What EVs are available? How much am I driving per year? What is my financial situation? My expectation is that EVs and the charging infrastructure will be a lot better. But, maybe not.**

“So what happens when they raise it to 15 dollars a gallon?”

***same exact thought process, just with different numbers.***


“You're going to keep buying it as a way to say, "yeah keep jacking the price i'll still drive my ICE car. Take that!!!"??”

***No, I would not buy an ICE as a political statement or to stick it to the “man”. It would be part financial and part product specific/enjoyment factor.***

“What happens if they jack registration to keep your ICE car on the road? What about insurance? Stricter noise regulations? Remember we drive performance cars, our cars while tame, aren't exactly the most quiet either.”

***registration and insurance same answer.. would just incorporate those $$ into my decision. Stricter noise regulations - this is similar to a ban/mandate and not the approach I would take***

“I believe the only way to preserve the ICE market IS TO buy an EV.”

***Ding, ding, ding. Now you’re starting to see what I’m saying. Except the ones buying EVs are the ones that aren’t enthusiasts, but the ones that don’t care that much and see the tax savings by switching***

Remember, the way to implement a carbon tax is to cut income taxes by the same amount. An average earner and an average gas consumer would not pay any additional taxes. The difference is now they can, but don’t have to, switch to an EV to save taxes. Currently, the only way is to earn less. Counter intuitive.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by jimbethesda

I’ll try to answer you point by point.

“So you're saying if gas prices is 10 dollars a gallon, you're willing to pay that in order to keep your ICE car? lol How often will you sustain paying such a huge penalty in order to keep what you want?”

**I’ll give you 2 answers. If gas were $10 today, I would still have bought my G83. I don’t drive that much, so I can easily afford the increase. Also, there are currently no EV convertibles.

Fast forward 10 years. My answer is I don’t know. What EVs are available? How much am I driving per year? What is my financial situation? My expectation is that EVs and the charging infrastructure will be a lot better. But, maybe not.**

“So what happens when they raise it to 15 dollars a gallon?”

***same exact thought process, just with different numbers.***


“You're going to keep buying it as a way to say, "yeah keep jacking the price i'll still drive my ICE car. Take that!!!"??”

***No, I would not buy an ICE as a political statement or to stick it to the “man”. It would be part financial and part product specific/enjoyment factor.***

“What happens if they jack registration to keep your ICE car on the road? What about insurance? Stricter noise regulations? Remember we drive performance cars, our cars while tame, aren't exactly the most quiet either.”

***registration and insurance same answer.. would just incorporate those $$ into my decision. Stricter noise regulations - this is similar to a ban/mandate and not the approach I would take***

“I believe the only way to preserve the ICE market IS TO buy an EV.”

***Ding, ding, ding. Now you’re starting to see what I’m saying. Except the ones buying EVs are the ones that aren’t enthusiasts, but the ones that don’t care that much and see the tax savings by switching***

Remember, the way to implement a carbon tax is to cut income taxes by the same amount. An average earner and an average gas consumer would not pay any additional taxes. The difference is now they can, but don’t have to, switch to an EV to save taxes. Currently, the only way is to earn less. Counter intuitive.

A lot of what you said makes sense but it's flawed, mainly by your own opinion on it.

People who buy EV's are not car enthusiasts?

There are multiple people on the corvette forum that has dropped out of the C8 z06 wait list, because the car was offered as naturally aspirated. What car did they end up getting? A plaid. I'm an enthusiast but i'm getting a tesla. It's not about any savings at all. I could probably save a huge amount getting a 2000 honda civic.

And that's the thing, if gas was 10 dollars today, and you still would have bought an M car, guess what? That doesn't even account for 0.000001% of people willing to do that same thing. You said you don't drive a lot. But others might have to? You said there are no EV convertibles. But others might not have a single care in the world if there were no convertibles ever for sale anymore?

The issue with what you're saying, which makes sense, is that you think you have the answer lol. You're essentially slicing up a coulda woulda shoulda but right now the answer is already laid out.

Listen no one likes to be told what to do. Especially in a hobby we all love. But it doesn't matter how you dissect it. Saying it's wrong, they should've done it this way, it's better that way. If they did this, then that could happen etc etc, what you know of today, will NOT be the norm sooner than you think.

[jimbethesda]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

A lot of what you said makes sense but it's flawed, mainly by your own opinion on it.

People who buy EV's are not car enthusiasts?

There are multiple people on the corvette forum that has dropped out of the C8 z06 wait list, because the car was offered as naturally aspirated. What car did they end up getting? A plaid. I'm an enthusiast but i'm getting a tesla. It's not about any savings at all. I could probably save a huge amount getting a 2000 honda civic.

And that's the thing, if gas was 10 dollars today, and you still would have bought an M car, guess what? That doesn't even account for 0.000001% of people willing to do that same thing. You said you don't drive a lot. But others might have to? You said there are no EV convertibles. But others might not have a single care in the world if there were no convertibles ever for sale anymore?

The issue with what you're saying, which makes sense, is that you think you have the answer lol. You're essentially slicing up a coulda woulda shoulda but right now the answer is already laid out.

Listen no one likes to be told what to do. Especially in a hobby we all love. But it doesn't matter how you dissect it. Saying it's wrong, they should've done it this way, it's better that way. If they did this, then that could happen etc etc, what you know of today, will be the norm sooner than you think.

"People who buy EV's are not car enthusiasts?"

I did not say this, not even close. Not sure why you think I did?

"And that's the thing, if gas was 10 dollars today, and you still would have bought an M car, guess what? That doesn't even account for 0.000001% of people willing to do that same thing."

I do not think it's that low.


"You said you don't drive a lot. But others might have to? You said there are no EV convertibles. But others might not have a single care in the world if there were no convertibles ever for sale anymore?"

All I can say to this is yeah, duh. You asked me if I would still buy an ICE if gas was $10/gallon, and I answered your question. The point of a carbon tax vs mandates is it preserves our choice.

"Listen no one likes to be told what to do. Especially in a hobby we all love. But it doesn't matter how you dissect it. Saying it's wrong, they should've done it this way, it's better that way. If they did this, then that could happen etc etc, what you know of today, will NOT be the norm sooner than you think."

True that.

I'm honestly not sure what your disagreeing with. At a high level, there are 3 choices:

1) do nothing
2) phase in a ice ban
3) cut income taxes and add a carbon tax. Let the market decide how to adjust. Public transportation, EV, work from home, just pay the tax. Some combination.

Looks like the world is going with option 2. I said that sucks, I sure wish they picked #3. I even said it's never going to happen, but a boy can dream. Lol

So, what are you saying exactly?

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by jimbethesda

"People who buy EV's are not car enthusiasts?"

I did not say this, not even close. Not sure why you think I did?

"And that's the thing, if gas was 10 dollars today, and you still would have bought an M car, guess what? That doesn't even account for 0.000001% of people willing to do that same thing."

I do not think it's that low.


"You said you don't drive a lot. But others might have to? You said there are no EV convertibles. But others might not have a single care in the world if there were no convertibles ever for sale anymore?"

All I can say to this is yeah, duh. You asked me if I would still buy an ICE if gas was $10/gallon, and I answered your question. The point of a carbon tax vs mandates is it preserves our choice.

"Listen no one likes to be told what to do. Especially in a hobby we all love. But it doesn't matter how you dissect it. Saying it's wrong, they should've done it this way, it's better that way. If they did this, then that could happen etc etc, what you know of today, will NOT be the norm sooner than you think."

True that.

I'm honestly not sure what your disagreeing with. At a high level, there are 3 choices:

1) do nothing
2) phase in a ice ban
3) cut income taxes and add a carbon tax. Let the market decide how to adjust. Public transportation, EV, work from home, just pay the tax. Some combination.

Looks like the world is going with option 2. I said that sucks, I sure wish they picked #3. I even said it's never going to happen, but a boy can dream. Lol

So, what are you saying exactly?

Except the ones buying EVs are the ones that aren't enthusiasts,

So if you weren't talking about car enthusiasts, what enthusiast are you referring to?

The reason why i asked you what you would do if gas was 10 dollars a gallon was merely to point out that you fall under the category of people opposed to EV as a whole. And that not everyone is in the same situation as you. I countered what you have said.

People have a budget and when that gets interrupted, you alter your decision making. Did you really think if i knew you would say yeah you would go ahead and pay the 10 dollars of gas that that solidified everything? lol

If anything, that's probably what the government would want. You want something so bad you pay a penalty. But not everyone will agree with that. I guess you would though. Which is fine.

I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying per say, just commenting on how you're dissecting this. Like this.

At a high level, there are 3 choices:

1) do nothing
2) phase in a ice ban
3) cut income taxes and add a carbon tax. Let the market decide how to adjust. Public transportation, EV, work from home, just pay the tax. Some combination.

You think it's just that easy? The issue is not with what's right or wrong, it's about CONTROL. And that's where i'm seeing holes in your arguments. Again, you make a lot of sense but you're looking at this wrong as if no one thought of that already.

They did. They're doing it THEIR WAY.

[jimbethesda]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

Except the ones buying EVs are the ones that aren't enthusiasts,

So if you weren't talking about car enthusiasts, what enthusiast are you referring to?

The reason why i asked you what you would do if gas was 10 dollars a gallon was merely to point out that you fall under the category of people opposed to EV as a whole. And that not everyone is in the same situation as you. I countered what you have said.

People have a budget and when that gets interrupted, you alter your decision making. Did you really think if i knew you would say yeah you would go ahead and pay the 10 dollars of gas that that solidified everything? lol

If anything, that's probably what the government would want. You want something so bad you pay a penalty. But not everyone will agree with that. I guess you would though. Which is fine.

I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying per say, just commenting on how you're dissecting this. Like this.

At a high level, there are 3 choices:

1) do nothing
2) phase in a ice ban
3) cut income taxes and add a carbon tax. Let the market decide how to adjust. Public transportation, EV, work from home, just pay the tax. Some combination.

You think it's just that easy? The issue is not with what's right or wrong, it's about CONTROL. And that's where i'm seeing holes in your arguments. Again, you make a lot of sense but you're looking at this wrong as if no one thought of that already.

They did. They're doing it THEIR WAY.

[b]" Except the ones buying EVs are the ones that aren't enthusiasts"/b]
**I guess you got me, LOL. Ok, that was a poor choice in words. I meant those who buy EVs aren't the ICE enthusiasts, or the never EV crowd**

"The reason why i asked you what you would do if gas was 10 dollars a gallon was merely to point out that you fall under the category of people opposed to EV as a whole. And that not everyone is in the same situation as you. I countered what you have said."

Ah, ok, this explains your adversary tone towards me. Let me be clear, I am absolutely not in the category of people opposed to EVs. Not at all. In fact, I'm quite excited about what the future of EVs will look like. Teslas are pretty awesome, same with the Taycon. My bet is that my ownership experience of the EV I buy will be better than any ICE car I've ever owned. I just said, TODAY, I stand by my decision to buy a G83, and still would even if gas was $10/gallon.

"You think it's just that easy? The issue is not with what's right or wrong, it's about CONTROL. And that's where i'm seeing holes in your arguments. Again, you make a lot of sense but you're looking at this wrong as if no one thought of that already.

They did. They're doing it THEIR WAY"

**You might have to help me with this comment. What's that easy? You want to talk about implementation of the plan now? Yeah, it's not easy. Mandates feel more like control. Yeah, I not claiming to have made up the concept of externalities and the carbon tax! Most economists agree this is the best approach.**

Maybe I'll start over. I fully support, and am excited about, the transition to EVs. I just wish instead of bans, carbon taxes were used instead. An EV driven 100 miles a day puts out more carbon than an X5 driven a few miles a week. A carbon tax is technology neutral, it targets just the behavior you want to minimize. Governments shouldn't pick winners and losers, they should just set tax policy in a way that internalizes externalities. And yeah, I know, it's never going to happen.

That's the entirety of my point.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by jimbethesda

[b]" Except the ones buying EVs are the ones that aren't enthusiasts"/b]
**I guess you got me, LOL. Ok, that was a poor choice in words. I meant those who buy EVs aren't the ICE enthusiasts, or the never EV crowd**

"The reason why i asked you what you would do if gas was 10 dollars a gallon was merely to point out that you fall under the category of people opposed to EV as a whole. And that not everyone is in the same situation as you. I countered what you have said."

Ah, ok, this explains your adversary tone towards me. Let me be clear, I am absolutely not in the category of people opposed to EVs. Not at all. In fact, I'm quite excited about what the future of EVs will look like. Teslas are pretty awesome, same with the Taycon. My bet is that my ownership experience of the EV I buy will be better than any ICE car I've ever owned. I just said, TODAY, I stand by my decision to buy a G83, and still would even if gas was $10/gallon.

"You think it's just that easy? The issue is not with what's right or wrong, it's about CONTROL. And that's where i'm seeing holes in your arguments. Again, you make a lot of sense but you're looking at this wrong as if no one thought of that already.

They did. They're doing it THEIR WAY"

**You might have to help me with this comment. What's that easy? You want to talk about implementation of the plan now? Yeah, it's not easy. Mandates feel more like control. Yeah, I not claiming to have made up the concept of externalities and the carbon tax! Most economists agree this is the best approach.**

Maybe I'll start over. I fully support, and am excited about, the transition to EVs. I just wish instead of bans, carbon taxes were used instead. An EV driven 100 miles a day puts out more carbon than an X5 driven a few miles a week. A carbon tax is technology neutral, it targets just the behavior you want to minimize. Governments shouldn't pick winners and losers, they should just set tax policy in a way that internalizes externalities. And yeah, I know, it's never going to happen.

That's the entirety of my point.

Brother i am not against what you're saying and i said a couple of times you are making sense.

All i'm saying is that it doesn't matter how you dissect it and what's right or wrong, the fact of the matter is, is that they're implementing a plan already. Whatever they have said they're going to do, they're going to do. It's not about, "what if they do it this way, it makes more sense". It's not about that.

Because if that's the case. Why the year 2035? Why do they have to ban ICE as a whole? California did it. NYC have approached the same thing.

Don't think i am in any way against what you're saying. I'm on your team. I just look at this from the outside and i know what's going on.

I only commented initially briefly in regards of how people look at EV's for it's purpose. Besides the political part of it and the ICE ban etc.

From an EV purpose, it's great. Not a great fit for all but it will be. Because if you look at all the comments about EV, whether it's on IG, or facebook, or the forums, almost all of them have the same response. A response that was already posted in this thread. Charge times. They did not say anything about what's better for the environment.

I already said as time goes on, charging times and battery technology will greatly improve thus having almost no excuse for the transition. I guess that's where the 2035 comes into play. THEY WILL sort that out. They meaning the government.

It's the sad truth.

[jimbethesda]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

Brother i am not against what you're saying and i said a couple of times you are making sense.

All i'm saying is that it doesn't matter how you dissect it and what's right or wrong, the fact of the matter is, is that they're implementing a plan already. Whatever they have said they're going to do, they're going to do. It's not about, "what if they do it this way, it makes more sense". It's not about that.

Because if that's the case. Why the year 2035? Why do they have to ban ICE as a whole? California did it. NYC have approached the same thing.

Don't think i am in any way against what you're saying. I'm on your team. I just look at this from the outside and i know what's going on.

I only commented initially briefly in regards of how people look at EV's for it's purpose. Besides the political part of it and the ICE ban etc.

From an EV purpose, it's great. Not a great fit for all but it will be. Because if you look at all the comments about EV, whether it's on IG, or facebook, or the forums, almost all of them have the same response. A response that was already posted in this thread. Charge times. They did not say anything about what's better for the environment.

I already said as time goes on, charging times and battery technology will greatly improve thus having almost no excuse for the transition. I guess that's where the 2035 comes into play. THEY WILL sort that out. They meaning the government.

It's the sad truth.

I agree with everything you said. We're making progress!

Just want to answer this "Why do they have to ban ICE as a whole? California did it. NYC have approached the same thing."

The answer is Taxes is a dirty word. Even if you cut income taxes by the same amount, everyone would freak out about higher energy prices. Bans and toll lanes aren't popular either, but to a lesser extent than taxes. So…why a ban? Because, sadly, that's the only thing voters will (somewhat) tolerate. The only other viable option is to do nothing. So if forced to choose between nothing and a ban, a ban is better.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by jimbethesda

I agree with everything you said. We're making progress!

Just want to answer this "Why do they have to ban ICE as a whole? California did it. NYC have approached the same thing."

The answer is Taxes is a dirty word. Even if you cut income taxes by the same amount, everyone would freak out about higher energy prices. Bans and toll lanes aren't popular either, but to a lesser extent than taxes. So…why a ban? Because, sadly, that's the only thing voters will (somewhat) tolerate. The only other viable option is to do nothing. So if forced to choose between nothing and a ban, a ban is better.

There's more BTS than just that.

I'm trying my best not to turn this into full political debate so i'll stop lol. Because i was going to say something else but that will open up a whole can of worms.

Let's just say that this is only the beginning. It gets worse.

[jimbethesda]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

There's more BTS than just that.

I'm trying my best not to turn this into full political debate so i'll stop lol. Because i was going to say something else but that will open up a whole can of worms.

Let's just say that this is only the beginning. It gets worse.

Hmmm, I'm intrigued, but probably best not to go down the road.

Peace out.

[PLF69]

Trend can change quickly and even more so today and at an pace much faster everyday so I wouldn't worry too much, 20yrs back in 2001 your freaking cell phone was just a phone, just a phone.

Now you can do applied mathematics on your "phone/portable computer".

Your new Electric car may be the equivalent of a refrigerator for a few years but down the road some ppl will tune the thing to feel like a vanquish V12 and shit.

Humans naturally don't like change but we all have the same faculty to adapt.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by PLF69

Trend can change quickly and even more so today and at an pace much faster everyday so I wouldn't worry too much, 20yrs back in 2001 your freaking cell phone was just a phone, just a phone.

Now you can do applied mathematics on your "phone/portable computer".

Your new Electric car may be the equivalent of a refrigerator for a few years but down the road some ppl will tune the thing to feel like a vanquish V12 and shit.

Humans naturally don't like change but we all have the same faculty to adapt.

There's already shops doing EV swaps to cars lol.

It's pretty cool if you're into that stuff.

All of this seems like alien technology but watch in a couple of years, it'll all be intuitive.

Before you know it, in 10-15 years from now the classified section will be nothing but "software codes" for sale to boost your EV by 1 second faster to 100mph or something lol. Similar to acceleration boost that can be purchased through the tesla app for 2000 bucks.

It's rather exciting!

[MadBimmeRad]

Originally Posted by NightWriter

Indeed. Enthusiasts who lurk in these forums are definitely in the minority. I'm proud to be amongst this group, but most people think we're nuts. When I told my wife a few years back I wanted to get a small/convertible as a weekend car--our third--it was like trying to explain to her why we needed another dishwasher. It just didn't compute ... Let alone for politicians, especially braindead ones who reflexively embrace EVs as the feel-good solution to all environmental challenges. Trying to explain and defend the joys of mechanical precision, a refined exhaust note, and a well-balanced chassis to these people is an exercise in futility.

I'd like to think of it as: EV is to ICE, as meth is to cocaine, both have their lethal failings.

The problem with politics is that no policy is ever drafted without them first counting how many votes it'll bring in. And EV, is currently on top of the list of vote-grabbers, but is it the right path to be on? Hell no.

In the 60s, the agricultural revolution began with synthetic fertilisers. Yes, production went up tenfold but what was the consequence? Soil and environmental degradation. Now, we pay extra, for food that is grown the way it used to be and call it organic.

Same thing will happen with EVs in 50 years, another technology will come and make EVs look evil, and politicians will support it because it'll bring in extra votes