[Bill76]

https://youtu.be/s9oKG6IYCXA

[jummo]

I think the most startling news there, is how well the M4CX shows against cars that cost a fair bit more.

[forumlurker]

Originally Posted by jummo

I think the most startling news there, is how well the M4CX shows against cars that cost a fair bit more.

faster than a 718 gt4 :O

[strohw]

Originally Posted by forumlurker

faster than a 718 gt4 :O

It really should be. I'm sure it's very close to the GT4 in overall capability. Perhaps a little better or a little worse in the corners but the CSL has a leg up in the power to weight and there is a lot of straight on that track. A stock GT4 only makes around 370whp. Then you have to ask what tires are the other cars running. You know what the CSL has.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by forumlurker

faster than a 718 gt4 :O

The CSL was tested on a CUP2R, whereas the GT4 was manual and on a normal Cup. The cup2R is worth probably 2-3 seconds here so realistically they’re about the same and PDK might be a bit faster even.
The GT4RS was 1:47.x so that should be telling enough.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by strohw

It really should be. I'm sure it's very close to the GT4 in overall capability. Perhaps a little better or a little worse in the corners but the CSL has a leg up in the power to weight and there is a lot of straight on that track. A stock GT4 only makes around 370whp. Then you have to ask what tires are the other cars running. You know what the CSL has.

As mentioned above the CSL was n a cup2R and the GT4 (manual) was on a cup. 2-3 second felt in tires alone.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

As mentioned above the CSL was n a cup2R and the GT4 (manual) was on a cup. 2-3 second felt in tires alone.

While tires matter, I don't believe PSC2 to PSC2R would make that much difference. Hockenheim is a high speed track where power matters, the M4 CSL power-to-weight advantage over the GT4 also helped it quite significantly IMO.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

While tires matter, I don't believe PSC2 to PSC2R would make that much difference. Hockenheim is a high speed track where power matters, the M4 CSL power-to-weight advantage over the GT4 also helped it quite significantly IMO.

They did a test not long ago of a cup2 and cup2r on a 1 min circuit and in the dry the cup2r was 2 seconds faster than the cup 2 on a GT3RS. The fact that the GT4RS did 1:47 (3 seconds faster than the CSL with a very similar power to weight) probably was split between the GT4 of 50% delta from power/transmission and 50% from tires. I do think a PDK GT4 with Cup2R would likely be a 1:50 car give or take. I mean the fact that an NA 414 hp car can do the times it’s doing is impressive to say the least.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

They did a test not long ago of a cup2 and cup2r on a 1 min circuit and in the dry the cup2r was 2 seconds faster than the cup 2 on a GT3RS. The fact that the GT4RS did 1:47 (3 seconds faster than the CSL with a very similar power to weight) probably was split between the GT4 of 50% delta from power/transmission and 50% from tires. I do think a PDK GT4 with Cup2R would likely be a 1:50 car give or take. I mean the fact that an NA 414 hp car can do the times it’s doing is impressive to say the least.

The various test I’ve seen show the PSC2R to be on average 0.8~1.0sec/min lap faster than the PSC2. So I figure the PSC2R would have made the GT4 1.5~2.0sec faster at Hockenheim, not enough to beat the CSL. Don’t forget the GT4RS also benefits from more aero and a rather substantial 20% advantage in power to weight over the GT4. And FYI, the last PDK GT4 SA tested at Hockenheim did a 1:54.6

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

The various test I’ve seen show the PSC2R to be on average 0.8~1.0sec/min lap faster than the PSC2. So I figure the PSC2R would have made the GT4 1.5~2.0sec faster at Hockenheim, not enough to beat the CSL. Don’t forget the GT4RS also benefits from more aero and a rather substantial 20% advantage in power to weight over the GT4. And FYI, the last PDK GT4 SA tested at Hockenheim did a 1:54.6

I think it would be rather close and do think there was an issue with the PDK test (I don’t recall if it was weather, worn tires but it doesn’t add up). I can’t remember a manual car being faster than pdk or even a decent auto in a track test in recent time.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

I think it would be rather close and do think there was an issue with the PDK test (I don’t recall if it was weather, worn tires but it doesn’t add up).

The first 918 GT4 6MT (PSC2) SA tested at Hockenheim did a 1:55…

Looking at the average of tests, I don’t believe 1:50 is in grasp for the GT4, even with PSC2R. I know you are a big fan of Porsche, but we need to remain realistic here.

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

I can’t remember a manual car being faster than pdk or even a decent auto in a track test in recent time.

SA Hockenheim tests for the 992 C2S:
7MT=1:53.4
PDK=1:53.5

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

The first 918 GT4 6MT (PSC2) SA tested at Hockenheim did a 1:55…

Looking at the average of tests, I don’t believe 1:50 is in grasp for the GT4, even with PSC2R. I know you are a big fan of Porsche, but we need to remain realistic here.


SA Hockenheim tests for the 992 C2S:
7MT=1:53.4
PDK=1:53.5

I own both a 718 GT4 (on my second instead of buying the M4 CSL) and a G80 M3 just to be clear.

I think it would be close with a 2R (I believe you're underestimating their impact on a single lap) - that tire is incredible for a one lap time. The GT4RS and CSL have almost the exact same power to weight (6.4x for each based on power and weight from Sport Auto) yet the 4RS is so much faster, and while it does have more aero (only 25% more than a GT4 at 220 lbs @120 mph) but also much more high speed drag.
The one thing these tests don't do a good job of at all is how well these cars would be over many laps. As much as some of these times seem great for one lap I don't foresee many of these heavier cars keeping these up for long.

Have you run a Cup2R on your turbo S yet?

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

I own both a 718 GT4 (on my second instead of buying the M4 CSL) and a G80 M3 just to be clear.

I think it would be close with a 2R (I believe you're underestimating their impact on a single lap) - that tire is incredible for a one lap time. The GT4RS and CSL have almost the exact same power to weight (6.4x for each based on power and weight from Sport Auto) yet the 4RS is so much faster, and while it does have more aero (only 25% more than a GT4 at 220 lbs @120 mph) but also much more high speed drag.
The one thing these tests don't do a good job of at all is how well these cars would be over many laps. As much as some of these times seem great for one lap I don't foresee many of these heavier cars keeping these up for long.

Have you run a Cup2R on your turbo S yet?

No I haven’t. My 992 is my daily, so I need a street/track dual use tire and the PSC2R is a bit too aggressive for that. Further, since I dont run competitively, I prefer consistency and durability over ultimate performance. The PSC2 made a massive difference on my TT, well over 2 sec/min lap vs the OE PZ4.

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on the incremental advantage of the PSC2R over the PSC2. Maybe I need to try a set and find out for myself.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

No I haven’t. My 992 is my daily, so I need a street/track dual use tire and the PSC2R is a bit too aggressive for that. Further, since I dont run competitively, I prefer consistency and durability over ultimate performance. The PSC2 made a massive difference on my TT, well over 2 sec/min lap vs the OE PZ4.

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on the incremental advantage of the PSC2R over the PSC2. Maybe I need to try a set and find out for myself.

Makes sense. I think you'd be surprised at how fast you can run a single lap once in the heat window. The drop off after that is pretty extreme and a Cup2 would be better once the glory lap is done. BTW - Michelin themselves say the Cup2R is worth .5 seconds per KM of lap distance and it's clear in some tests it's even more.
And conditions here do make a difference because the 992 GT3 already ran a 1:45.8 (which is 1.5 seconds faster than this test and on the same tire) a while back which was faster than a 765LT.

[PeregrineFalcon]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

The CSL was tested on a CUP2R, whereas the GT4 was manual and on a normal Cup. The cup2R is worth probably 2-3 seconds here so realistically they’re about the same and PDK might be a bit faster even.
The GT4RS was 1:47.x so that should be telling enough.

On the other hand, we have the lap time for the Sachsenring track:

M4CSL set almost the same time as the GT4RS!

So, I don't think that your calculations are that simple

[PLF69]

Both car are so different in design it's just normal they perform differently depending on the track.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by PeregrineFalcon

On the other hand, we have the lap time for the Sachsenring track:

M4CSL set almost the same time as the GT4RS!

So, I don't think that your calculations are that simple

It's .42 seconds SLOWER on a VERY short lap that is geared towards high hp cars (like Hockenheim). 0.4 seconds on this track is a massive delta. After 20 laps, the CSL would be nearly 10 seconds behind - and that's if it could do 1:29.54 lap after lap which it would not as those times would get slower whereas the 4RS would able to do the same time with little to no delta.

[PeregrineFalcon]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

It's .42 seconds SLOWER on a VERY short lap that is geared towards high hp cars (like Hockenheim). 0.4 seconds on this track is a massive delta. After 20 laps, the CSL would be nearly 10 seconds behind - and that's if it could do 1:29.54 lap after lap which it would not as those times would get slower whereas the 4RS would able to do the same time with little to no delta.

My point was that putting just the CUP2R on a regular Porsche 718 Cayman GT4 will not be enough to beat the M4CSL, but anyway, I don't think that 0,42 sec is a big delta for such a track, but 1,37 sec. is, and that is for example the difference in time between the M4CSL and GT4RS on the track with about the same length as Sachsenring!

https://fastestlaps.com/tracks/val-de-vienne

M4CSL 1:43.28

GT4RS 1:44.65

As you say, after 20 laps, the GT4RS would be nearly 28 seconds behind!
And Val de Vienne is a relatively slow track, with overall average speed of 122 kph (76 mph)

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by PeregrineFalcon

My point was that putting just the CUP2R on a regular Porsche 718 Cayman GT4 will not be enough to beat the M4CSL, but anyway, I don't think that 0,42 sec is a big delta for such a track, but 1,37 sec. is, and that is for example the difference in time between the M4CSL and GT4RS on the track with about the same length as Sachsenring!

https://fastestlaps.com/tracks/val-de-vienne

M4CSL 1:43.28

GT4RS 1:44.65

As you say, after 20 laps, the GT4RS would be nearly 28 seconds behind!
And Val de Vienne is a relatively slow track, with overall average speed of 122 kph (76 mph)

No, you are incorrect - helps if you have all the information and context. That the time for the GT4RS was done on a normal Cup 2 tire and not a Cup2R like the CSL so not a valid comparison. On the same tire the 4RS would be faster like it is on every other track. Here it would be .5-.6 faster per lap on the same tire.

From the article which you seem to have not read;

“Second, the car was supplied to us with the very well established Michelin Cup 2s and not the Cup 2 Rs…Honestly, with the new Cup 2 Rs, I think it’s ahead of the GT3 (1:42.8)”, continues Christophe.

And this is further proof of how much a CUP2R is worth.

https://www.tracednews.com/chrono-to...-it-be-better/


So with the R it’s a 1.42.8 or faster and again that is crushing the CSL given how short the lap is.

And again, the gap only gets larger as laps add up not even considering that 4 RS being able to be consistent in those times.

[PeregrineFalcon]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

No, you are incorrect - helps if you have all the information and context. That the time for the GT4RS was done on a normal Cup 2 tire and not a Cup2R like the CSL so not a valid comparison. On the same tire the 4RS would be faster like it is on every other track. Here it would be .5-.6 faster per lap on the same tire.

From the article which you seem to have not read;

“Second, the car was supplied to us with the very well established Michelin Cup 2s and not the Cup 2 Rs…Honestly, with the new Cup 2 Rs, I think it’s ahead of the GT3 (1:42.8)”, continues Christophe.

And this is further proof of how much a CUP2R is worth.

https://www.tracednews.com/chrono-to...-it-be-better/


So with the R it’s a 1.42.8 or faster and again that is crushing the CSL given how short the lap is.

And again, the gap only gets larger as laps add up not even considering that 4 RS being able to be consistent in those times.

Yes, it does help if you have all the information at hand (do you have the info on the M4CSL tires in this case?).
But it still doesn't change the fact that you can't just put the Cup2R on the base GT4 and make it as fast as M4CSL on most tracks.

First, what you have wrote is just a speculation on your part and on the part of the Christophe, because he, just like you "thinks", and until we have the time for the GT4RS on Cup2R's the M4 will stay a faster car on that track!
In order for the GT4RS to be faster than the GT3, the tiers need to provide at least 2 seconds advantage on such a track!
To put it in to a perspective, here are the Sachsenring lap times (the track with almost the same length as the Val de Vienne) for the GT4RS and GT4:

GT4: 1:31.51

GT4RS: 1:29.12

So, according to your logic, just putting the Cup2R's on the GT4, it would make it almost as fast as the GT4RS?!
I really don't think so, but that is just my opinion

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by PeregrineFalcon

Yes, it does help if you have all the information at hand (do you have the info on the M4CSL tires in this case?).
But it still doesn't change the fact that you can't just put the Cup2R on the base GT4 and make it as fast as M4CSL on most tracks.

First, what you have wrote is just a speculation on your part and on the part of the Christophe, because he, just like you "thinks", and until we have the time for the GT4RS on Cup2R's the M4 will stay a faster car on that track!
In order for the GT4RS to be faster than the GT3, the tiers need to provide at least 2 seconds advantage on such a track!
To put it in to a perspective, here are the Sachsenring lap times (the track with almost the same length as the Val de Vienne) for the GT4RS and GT4:

GT4: 1:31.51

GT4RS: 1:29.12

So, according to your logic, just putting the Cup2R's on the GT4, it would make it almost as fast as the GT4RS?!
I really don't think so, but that is just my opinion

So much misinformation you are putting out there. If you look at the test it says the CSL was on Cup2Rs. It is in BMWs best interest to always send with the one lap super tire for the very best time because otherwise times would be much too close to the Xdrive for comfort.

You can say the M4 CSL is faster, but with the MASSIVE CAVEAT that it was on a MUCH softer, and MUCH faster compound tire - but giving this type of statement is not only illogical but rather foolish since it's not even close to apples to apples comparison. Equal out tires, and that is not the case given how much a Cup2R would be worth here (it's a ~4km track so about 2 seconds or more). Go look at how the Cup2R impacts times. When they tested the CUP2R on a GT3RS initially, the Cup2R was 1.8 seconds faster than the Cup2 on a lap that clocked just over 1 min. Imagine how that can play out over even longer laps...

And again, you are WRONG on the tires longevity. The Cup2R is only good for 1-2 laps. After that it falls off a cliff - please go read up on this because the Cup2 over the long run will be the better tire, but not on a single hot lap.

I also think that the driver, Christoph Tinseau would be much more knowledgeable on how a tire would impact a car. You saying his estimate is not accurate is like saying you're not going to trust a rocket scientist when it comes to propulsion engineering.

https://fastestlaps.com/tests/z8kutlgj9k07
(left hand side it gives all the details; same for the 4RS link below)

https://fastestlaps.com/tests/rlitl017mk58

I did NOT say the GT4 would simply be as fast as the RS just with tires (it would not). I said the gap would be cut down by 2-3 seconds at Hockenheim - the power and slight aero advantage take care of the rest.

[PLF69]

A lot of you seem to assume changing tires will instantly provide a faster car, remember cars are driven.

What tires provide by adding grip is more confidence and a more confident driver will most of the time be faster.

All I will say is the confidence between a mid/rear engine car and a front engine rwd car isn't the same at all, everything you feel from the the first time you start driving to the point your becoming fast is totally different. More variables than tires alone.