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      10-21-2021, 09:50 AM   #45
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I can notice without thinking about it. There's a much bigger delay when you bounce off the redline too
Sure, but how much of that is attributable to the smoothness of the transmission versus the DCT? The actual interruption of power is very short in either case, it just lacks the forcefulness of the DCT.
And I shift at 7k to avoid the rev limiter slowing the shifts down.

The DCT definitely has more of sports car feel to it, but the ZF8 is no slouch either.
The smoothness doesn't matter shifts aren't as snappy. I can 100% notice a different using the paddles vs a DCT even at lower revs. It's something that will be different for everyone. The ZF8 will never have the same quickness even though it good for a traditional automatic. Seeing how I can't shift at redline that's sort of a big problem since then there's a perceivable delay that makes it seem slow.
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      10-23-2021, 01:45 PM   #46
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I don't either, you can notice the shift speed difference which is unfortunate. I believe the main issue was they didn't want to spend R&D money on making it work with AWD. I would have loved a DCT in this car with AWD.
What does AWD have to do with the M4?
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      10-23-2021, 02:03 PM   #47
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What does AWD have to do with the M4?
Good morning Steve Rogers. The year is now 2021. Many things have changed since you were frozen.
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      10-23-2021, 02:25 PM   #48
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I don't either, you can notice the shift speed difference which is unfortunate. I believe the main issue was they didn't want to spend R&D money on making it work with AWD. I would have loved a DCT in this car with AWD.
What does AWD have to do with the M4?
Because they dropped the DCT per rumors to add AWD
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      10-23-2021, 02:39 PM   #49
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I don't either, you can notice the shift speed difference which is unfortunate. I believe the main issue was they didn't want to spend R&D money on making it work with AWD. I would have loved a DCT in this car with AWD.
What does AWD have to do with the M4?
Lol, wait a second here….. you really don't know that the M4 has an AWD offering for over 6 months now? Or do you expect BMW to have three transmission variants? I'm hoping it's the latter.
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      10-23-2021, 04:44 PM   #50
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I simply cannot understand why BMW would downgrade any car, much less a full blown M, by dropping the DCT?
Some of us actually prefer the ZF over the DCT
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      10-23-2021, 05:03 PM   #51
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Some of us actually prefer the ZF over the DCT
He’s probably never driven a car with either, but yeah, ZF is a really good transmission.
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      12-30-2021, 10:35 PM   #52
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Reviving an older thread….. considering a G80 manual or going back to an F80ZCP manual (same spec I previously owned and was absolutely smitten over - and im not some noob…. 36s, 46s, 90s and 80s….all M3s… over 20 years…. F80z was off the hook good… by FAR the best one of the bunch).

All that said, while I haven’t driven the G80 and im sure it’s superior, I simply cannot agree with the traction comments about the F8X comp. I owned two of them and they were GLUED to the ground, both ends. I had to be blatantly stupid to get the rear end to step out….even in the rain I had zero issues unless I provoked it… but never had to even think about it. I took both cars on super aggressive canyon runs… zero traction issues. The only time I would get wheel spin was WOT in first gear but that’s obvious in a car this powerful.

And as noted, front grip was immense…. Almost limitless in the canyons….virtually zero under steer unless under heavy throttle.

So what are I missing here? I get that the newer car is better but to say the F8X comps had traction problems is hugely inaccurate (stock power). Further, I found the part throttle response once at full boost in Spot+ (max anti lag in effect) to be highly precise/resolute all the way to redline, allowing great control over exactly how much thrust was delivered to the ground.
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      12-31-2021, 08:01 AM   #53
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Eric - I think it's a question of degree (of grip). The F8x's that I've driven, including my years in my M2C, certainly never made me think they were entirely lacking in grip...at least not at the level of the old Mustangs before they got real rear suspension or anything like that.

I do think there was a slight issue with the Michelin MPSS being at the end of their day during most of the F8x run. The PS4S's were more correct for the cars once they were available. I also think that a LOT of folk who have real issues with F8x traction really just needed to calm down and learn the car rather than try to take off at full throttle with TC off on damp roads. I'd also add that some folks' issues with them may have been ill-advised modifications for aesthetic purposes that compromised the cars a bit (a friend of mine essentially ruined his with less than optimal suspension alterations and the wrong wheel choice).

It was some of the people who drove them more than the car. It was the MPSS not quite being able to match the available power. And sometimes it was folk putting Cup and Cup 2's on them without understanding what it means that the tires needed sufficient heat in them. There were some setups and circumstances that left the F8x's slightly on the wrong side of the "balance" line, but they are and were brilliant cars.

The G8x does have more mechanical grip, and it is a more balanced car overall. You'll probably really enjoy getting to know what it can do since it sounds like you were more able to get in tune with the F8x platform than a lot of folk.
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      12-31-2021, 09:14 AM   #54
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Can you guys comment on the low end torque/oomph compared to the F8X?

Was watching Joe Achilles' recent owners review video where he was complaining about tremendous lag down low...but it seemed odd as he was flogging the car down low but in too high of a gear, didn't even try downshifting.
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      12-31-2021, 10:40 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by bri1042 View Post
Eric - I think it's a question of degree (of grip). The F8x's that I've driven, including my years in my M2C, certainly never made me think they were entirely lacking in grip...at least not at the level of the old Mustangs before they got real rear suspension or anything like that.

I do think there was a slight issue with the Michelin MPSS being at the end of their day during most of the F8x run. The PS4S's were more correct for the cars once they were available. I also think that a LOT of folk who have real issues with F8x traction really just needed to calm down and learn the car rather than try to take off at full throttle with TC off on damp roads. I'd also add that some folks' issues with them may have been ill-advised modifications for aesthetic purposes that compromised the cars a bit (a friend of mine essentially ruined his with less than optimal suspension alterations and the wrong wheel choice).

It was some of the people who drove them more than the car. It was the MPSS not quite being able to match the available power. And sometimes it was folk putting Cup and Cup 2's on them without understanding what it means that the tires needed sufficient heat in them. There were some setups and circumstances that left the F8x's slightly on the wrong side of the "balance" line, but they are and were brilliant cars.

The G8x does have more mechanical grip, and it is a more balanced car overall. You'll probably really enjoy getting to know what it can do since it sounds like you were more able to get in tune with the F8x platform than a lot of folk.
Great post, all valid/fair points. And as noted, I’m certain that the new car is relatively more grippy. Just saying that a bone stock F8XZ gripped like a mofo and would required you to try to break it loose - it would never surprise you….contrary to a few comments in this thread.

It should be restated that BMW really cut their teeth with a turbo M platform for the F8X, as that run saw significant changes, with the later higher spec cars offering considerable improvements in chassis control, traction and power delivery. That is to say that the G80 is an improvement on the best F8X iteration, which is DAMN good. I can only imagine how good it must be, never mind how much better it will get over time.
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      12-31-2021, 10:47 AM   #56
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Can you guys comment on the low end torque/oomph compared to the F8X?

Was watching Joe Achilles' recent owners review video where he was complaining about tremendous lag down low...but it seemed odd as he was flogging the car down low but in too high of a gear, didn't even try downshifting.
Been thinking about this too. The G80 is tuned to be more NA ish with less torque swell down low.

That said, the S55 in ZCP spec wasn’t a low end monster - it didn’t spool till 3k (below that it’s basically an NA motor…. weak) but boy did it come on strong, and, pull hard to 7k….. so it had a very usable 4K window.

It should be noted that prior to my F80 experience I was always an NA snob….and now I’ve seen the turbo light. Curious IF the G80 manual “feels” turbo-y still or just a super fast NA motor.
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      12-31-2021, 11:26 AM   #57
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Curious IF the G80 manual “feels” turbo-y still or just a super fast NA motor.
It's sort of in between but feels closer to the "linear rising power" characteristic of an NA motor than any turbo car I've spent a lot of time with, though I don't think a turbo engine can ever entirely feel the same as a GOOD NA engine (not all NA engines are good...I think some folk forget how awful many of them were). It certainly isn't the old-school turbo nothing-nothing-nothing-boom, and it also isn't the flat wall of unchanging torque that a lot of twin-scroll turbo cars have (which I've come to dislike for it's lack of character).

After 10 months with this engine, I can't quite put the words together to answer this question. It doesn't feel like either one to me at this point. I do think it's possible to be disappointed by the S58 if one were to go into it wanting it to feel like something out of a car that the person used to have. Time spent feeling out the engine and getting to know it should dispel any disappointment caused by "it was better before" comparisons.
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      12-31-2021, 11:27 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OF Hero View Post
Can you guys comment on the low end torque/oomph compared to the F8X?

Was watching Joe Achilles' recent owners review video where he was complaining about tremendous lag down low...but it seemed odd as he was flogging the car down low but in too high of a gear, didn't even try downshifting.
Oh man, I hope this thing isn't like the X3M I test drove a few years back at one of those M Drive days. That thing had some terrible turbo lag
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      12-31-2021, 11:33 AM   #59
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Oh man, I hope this thing isn't like the X3M I test drove a few years back at one of those M Drive days. That thing had some terrible turbo lag
I can't speak to the auto-equipped cars, but it sounds like you and I had a similar reaction to the X3M at M Drive Days. I haven't had a single day with my 6MT where the low end felt like that X3M did. A lot of folk are happy with their X3M's so I often wonder if driving a newer one would be different (it was a brand new model when I drove it).
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      12-31-2021, 11:43 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bri1042 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kief View Post
Oh man, I hope this thing isn't like the X3M I test drove a few years back at one of those M Drive days. That thing had some terrible turbo lag
I can't speak to the auto-equipped cars, but it sounds like you and I had a similar reaction to the X3M at M Drive Days. I haven't had a single day with my 6MT where the low end felt like that X3M did. A lot of folk are happy with their X3M's so I often wonder if driving a newer one would be different (it was a brand new model when I drove it).
Yeah, perhaps those test drive X3Ms had some preproduction issues or everyone just drove the crap out of them. I certainly left the test drive disappointed and not yearning for one
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      12-31-2021, 12:32 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricSMG View Post
Been thinking about this too. The G80 is tuned to be more NA ish with less torque swell down low.

That said, the S55 in ZCP spec wasn’t a low end monster - it didn’t spool till 3k (below that it’s basically an NA motor…. weak) but boy did it come on strong, and, pull hard to 7k….. so it had a very usable 4K window.

It should be noted that prior to my F80 experience I was always an NA snob….and now I’ve seen the turbo light. Curious IF the G80 manual “feels” turbo-y still or just a super fast NA motor.
I made a post about this a while back but hopefully it’s helpful in your comparison between the two motors:

https://g80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...63&postcount=4

Both awesome engines, both succeeding on each of their designs.

The key is gearing, of which the ZF keeps you in the power band more readily but at the expense of quite short gears. I personally think M-DCT would be absolutely perfect for S58 due to its gearing, as it was initially developed and implemented in the F10 M5
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      12-31-2021, 01:55 PM   #62
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I had 2 F8x's (2018 6MT non comp M3 & a 2020 M4 competition coupe) and now have a G82 Comp Xdrv coupe.

G82 is night & day better. The driving dynamics are simply not comparable. Car has much more power, is substantially more refined, handles better, interior quality is better and has a much bigger presence on the road. It is just about better in every way.

With that said, the F8x will always have a special place in my heart. I truly enjoyed having them, and loved the rawness of them. I miss the power dome and the aggressive side mirrors. I also think the HK sound system in the F8x was better for some reason. Also I didn't really pay attention to it at the time but compared to the G82, the F8x was very good on fuel. Although I would happily give up MPG for faster 0-60 times any day of the week so I'm not complaining.
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      12-31-2021, 04:43 PM   #63
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I had 2 F8x's (2018 6MT non comp M3 & a 2020 M4 competition coupe) and now have a G82 Comp Xdrv coupe.

G82 is night & day better. The driving dynamics are simply not comparable. Car has much more power, is substantially more refined, handles better, interior quality is better and has a much bigger presence on the road. It is just about better in every way.

With that said, the F8x will always have a special place in my heart. I truly enjoyed having them, and loved the rawness of them. I miss the power dome and the aggressive side mirrors. I also think the HK sound system in the F8x was better for some reason. Also I didn't really pay attention to it at the time but compared to the G82, the F8x was very good on fuel. Although I would happily give up MPG for faster 0-60 times any day of the week so I'm not complaining.
I agree.

Similar to you I had a 2016 M4 6MT non-competition and 2018 M3 DCT competition. I enjoyed both of these but find my current M4C better, much as you describe.

My only criticism of the M4C is its relatively restrained exhaust. Each of my F8x's had a BMW M Performance exhaust which sounded great. I will soon add a Remus axle back exhaust to remedy this.
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      01-01-2022, 12:00 PM   #64
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In a perfect world, I WOULD be buying a used 2021 M4 Competition but prices are insane on them, currently, going for more than new, and well beyond my financial means. My max expenditure would be $78-79k. 2021 M4 Competitions are running $93- over $100k!

I realize the previous series M4's are much less expensive, but I've driven a couple and don't want to deal with the rear end instability, outdated interior etc. as has been pointed out. You have also convinced me that the new G series car also completely outclasses it. I just cannot afford one at the current, nassively inflated prices.

I've recently read a number of articles that spoke about how the 2018 M3 CS is one of the best M cars ever, clearly superior to the F80 M4 cars, and a future classic. I would greatly appreciate any experience and/or thoughts you might have had with one of those, as I could afford it.
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      01-01-2022, 09:56 PM   #65
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I'll echo what a lot of others have said, which is that the G82 is a massive upgrade across every part of the driving experience. Two of the biggest gripes with my F82 was that the interior felt dated and less sophisticated, and the backend just never felt adequate enough to handle even my non-competition M4.

Now with AWD, my G82 is a rocket. The car feels a ton more planted with daily driving, and when I want to lay down power it just claws the road and pulls the earth closer to me with each millimeter of the accelerator.

The interior feels so much more like a luxury car that happens to have supercar performance as well as amazing technology designed to keep me alive. The all-digital instrument cluster is something I railed against 10 years ago, but once I saw it in other BMW models I couldn't look at my F82's analog cluster the same way.

Daily driving has actually earned a nod of approval from my wife, who constantly felt the F82 was too "jerky" with street driving, and that's even though I always drove in "comfort" mode with her. Strangely, even though I spec'd the carbon buckets seats, which I thought would provide even less comfort, she feels the car is actually smoother and more comfortable to be in. Part of me wonders whether that may be due to the CCB's I spec'd. Engineering Explained did a great video explaining the virtues of CCB's, and the many points he covers make me wonder whether all those merits help to make this new car feel more comfortable despite the leaner/firmer seats.
Whatever is making this more comfortable for my wife leaves me very pleased, because the carbon bucket seats are practically my favorite thing about the car and I was genuinely worried it would be a bad decision on the comfort side.

Exterior looks: it's obviously night and day. To me, this damn thing looks so much more aggressive. I loved it the moment it debuted. I was/is one of those who felt like the new grills were immensely good at increasing the aggressiveness and looks of the car. My F82 changed from looking "cool" to feeling like an older car that was sedated. And like many others here and in Instagram, I have heard precisely zero unfavorable comments on the looks from when I'm out and about. It turns so many heads from so many walks of life, and I can't count how many times I'm in a parking lot and someone wants to chat about the car.

Sound system: there are many on this forum who don't like the new system, but to me it is a big step up above the F82's "upgraded" sound system (that was an option on my F82 and I had it, whereas now they just give you the Harmon Kardon system by default). I swear, right after delivery when I tuned my equalizer and other sound settings, I re-listened to old songs because the new system allowed me to hear/feel things that weren't present before, even with our multi-speaker Sonos system at home.

Transmission: I lamented the choice to ditch DCT but in practice I don't miss it. This new ZF transmission is fast and smooth and doesn't leave me pining for DCT anymore. Maybe I was doing it wrong with my F82, but with the new ZF I find that it kicks down to the right gear so much better than the DCT. Gear selection is simply fast and accurate for what gear I need based on my sudden accelerator position, and this is coming from not using the most aggressive selection (I always use the 2nd level for the transmission).

Sound: say what you will about the exhaust and the piped-in sound into the cabin, but the driving experience is just massively fun with this new G82 in Sport Plus. Piping in sound through the speakers isn't new to the G8x platform, as I enjoyed the F82's sound in/out, but it's something that allows me to drive with immersive sound on acceleration and yet I'm not drawing the ire of all the cops within earshot. The actual sound from the tailpipe is an improvement as well. My usual driving buddy who owns a Nizmo Z says the F82 sounded like a fart can, whereas he puts this new platform on par with exotic cars. He's a sample size of one, but I'll take it.

Power delivery: yes, the F82 achieving max torque at 1850 rpms was fantastic. But with the G82, once you're passed 3K rpms, the rocket characteristics takeover. And with shorter gears (and eight of them to boot), once you're passed 3K in first gear, each subsequent shift leaves you in the right rpm range to continue the thrill of acceleration. The delivery itself feels closer to an NA car and yet still retains the turbo feel I've grown to love. I grew up with NA cars and thought they were the best. But putting your foot down and feeling a relatively constant level of acceleration through the rpm range always lacked something that I couldn't quite place. With twin turbos, as the rpms rise and the sound theater sings louder and louder, you get that boost feeling where each 1K gain in rpm just shoves you back further in your seat. 5K rpms is great, and then 6K is just louder and faster still. What's different between the F82 and G82 is the shorter gears, and that engineering decision imparts a more racy feel where changing gears at higher rpms doesn't drop the sound level as far as the F82 did. You still feel like you're in an aggressive rpm range that teases you to keep hammering the throttle. The F82 just didn't do it as well as this one.

I really loved my F82 but this new one is an extraordinary machine and an upgrade across every single part of the car. To each their own for sure, but I am one happy camper.
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      01-01-2022, 11:38 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by m_travers View Post
I'll echo what a lot of others have said, which is that the G82 is a massive upgrade across every part of the driving experience. Two of the biggest gripes with my F82 was that the interior felt dated and less sophisticated, and the backend just never felt adequate enough to handle even my non-competition M4.

Now with AWD, my G82 is a rocket. The car feels a ton more planted with daily driving, and when I want to lay down power it just claws the road and pulls the earth closer to me with each millimeter of the accelerator.

The interior feels so much more like a luxury car that happens to have supercar performance as well as amazing technology designed to keep me alive. The all-digital instrument cluster is something I railed against 10 years ago, but once I saw it in other BMW models I couldn't look at my F82's analog cluster the same way.

Daily driving has actually earned a nod of approval from my wife, who constantly felt the F82 was too "jerky" with street driving, and that's even though I always drove in "comfort" mode with her. Strangely, even though I spec'd the carbon buckets seats, which I thought would provide even less comfort, she feels the car is actually smoother and more comfortable to be in. Part of me wonders whether that may be due to the CCB's I spec'd. Engineering Explained did a great video explaining the virtues of CCB's, and the many points he covers make me wonder whether all those merits help to make this new car feel more comfortable despite the leaner/firmer seats.
Whatever is making this more comfortable for my wife leaves me very pleased, because the carbon bucket seats are practically my favorite thing about the car and I was genuinely worried it would be a bad decision on the comfort side.

Exterior looks: it's obviously night and day. To me, this damn thing looks so much more aggressive. I loved it the moment it debuted. I was/is one of those who felt like the new grills were immensely good at increasing the aggressiveness and looks of the car. My F82 changed from looking "cool" to feeling like an older car that was sedated. And like many others here and in Instagram, I have heard precisely zero unfavorable comments on the looks from when I'm out and about. It turns so many heads from so many walks of life, and I can't count how many times I'm in a parking lot and someone wants to chat about the car.

Sound system: there are many on this forum who don't like the new system, but to me it is a big step up above the F82's "upgraded" sound system (that was an option on my F82 and I had it, whereas now they just give you the Harmon Kardon system by default). I swear, right after delivery when I tuned my equalizer and other sound settings, I re-listened to old songs because the new system allowed me to hear/feel things that weren't present before, even with our multi-speaker Sonos system at home.

Transmission: I lamented the choice to ditch DCT but in practice I don't miss it. This new ZF transmission is fast and smooth and doesn't leave me pining for DCT anymore. Maybe I was doing it wrong with my F82, but with the new ZF I find that it kicks down to the right gear so much better than the DCT. Gear selection is simply fast and accurate for what gear I need based on my sudden accelerator position, and this is coming from not using the most aggressive selection (I always use the 2nd level for the transmission).

Sound: say what you will about the exhaust and the piped-in sound into the cabin, but the driving experience is just massively fun with this new G82 in Sport Plus. Piping in sound through the speakers isn't new to the G8x platform, as I enjoyed the F82's sound in/out, but it's something that allows me to drive with immersive sound on acceleration and yet I'm not drawing the ire of all the cops within earshot. The actual sound from the tailpipe is an improvement as well. My usual driving buddy who owns a Nizmo Z says the F82 sounded like a fart can, whereas he puts this new platform on par with exotic cars. He's a sample size of one, but I'll take it.

Power delivery: yes, the F82 achieving max torque at 1850 rpms was fantastic. But with the G82, once you're passed 3K rpms, the rocket characteristics takeover. And with shorter gears (and eight of them to boot), once you're passed 3K in first gear, each subsequent shift leaves you in the right rpm range to continue the thrill of acceleration. The delivery itself feels closer to an NA car and yet still retains the turbo feel I've grown to love. I grew up with NA cars and thought they were the best. But putting your foot down and feeling a relatively constant level of acceleration through the rpm range always lacked something that I couldn't quite place. With twin turbos, as the rpms rise and the sound theater sings louder and louder, you get that boost feeling where each 1K gain in rpm just shoves you back further in your seat. 5K rpms is great, and then 6K is just louder and faster still. What's different between the F82 and G82 is the shorter gears, and that engineering decision imparts a more racy feel where changing gears at higher rpms doesn't drop the sound level as far as the F82 did. You still feel like you're in an aggressive rpm range that teases you to keep hammering the throttle. The F82 just didn't do it as well as this one.

I really loved my F82 but this new one is an extraordinary machine and an upgrade across every single part of the car. To each their own for sure, but I am one happy camper.
I greatly appreciate the perspective. You, and others have me absolutely convinced how much better and how remarkable the G82 is. And, in a normal world, a one year old car would be available at the price I can afford. However, thanks to COVID and related workplace shutdowns, and staff shortages, , chip shortages and a perfect storm of issues, they are selling at, or more than new, placing them $15-20k, or more above my limits.

That was why I threw out the possibility of a 2018 M3 CS and wondered what people thought.
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