View Poll Results: DCT or traditional AT? | |||
I prefer a DCT. | 235 | 60.57% | |
I prefer a traditional AT. | 32 | 8.25% | |
Either is fine with me. | 53 | 13.66% | |
I don't care. No manual, no purchase. | 68 | 17.53% | |
Voters: 388. You may not vote on this poll |
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05-29-2020, 11:31 AM | #309 | |
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Just one problem how do you shrink $1m budget to $100k . I’m with you all the way but it’s a challenge for sure. The NSX gives a glimmer of hope that something can be done on a shoe string but it seems M is eyeing a 4 banger hybrid for the M3. |
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05-29-2020, 11:35 AM | #310 | ||||
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I don't know how you decide which car to buy, but I can tell you how I and the majority of other people buy their cars: They have a budget, and they have a few (or many) weighted characteristics in mind, that the car should fullfil. Let's look at an imaginary sample list of those:
Now let's do the same thing for the G80 M3/M4 how you wanted it to be:
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As a disclaimer: I don't want to argue pro or contra DCT/Converter. I just want to explain why BMW did this, why it is the correct decision (from BMWs POV) and why you are probably not the target group anymore. I'm not in the market for the G80 or any other sports car (will order the G30 LCI 545e once it's available) and I couldn't care less if they put a DCT, converter, electric, manual or whatever into the G80. To sum it up: BMW wants to make $$$, BMW realised if they put a converter into the G80 they will make more $$$. So they put a converter into the G80 and are happy about their $$$. No, BMW doesn't give a *** about your (individual) opinion. Don't get me wrong, they do care about their customers (that's why they put a converter in), but it seems like you are not the target group and hence not a customer. So they don't care about your opinion. Last edited by Flamingi; 05-29-2020 at 12:18 PM.. |
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05-29-2020, 11:59 AM | #311 | |
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Same sales figure can be achieved with 80K M4s, 3750 units sold. From 2014-2017, M3/M4s sold around 100,000 units=$8B. which is approx $2B sales per year. I am unsure how much money BMW spends on R&D but if Porsche can do it with less budget, BMW ifinitely not trying hard enough.
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05-29-2020, 12:03 PM | #312 | |
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05-29-2020, 12:27 PM | #313 |
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It is oxymoron in the sense that you want to be part of experience (BMW M) when you don't really appreciate or care for motorsport spirit. In this case it is not a very logical purchase i.e. buying the wrong car and 550i or B5 would have comparable power and luxurious ride.
There are other inconsistencies in your assumptions but the biggest fault in your stats is X3M. If you are talking about most sold units in one year perhaps it is, but they have only been out for a year and M3/4 currently have record topping 100K plus units sold over production cycle. And no, X3 M40i is not an M car so it shouldn't count towards M fleet sales figure. Those buyers are very different from real M demographics.
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05-29-2020, 12:43 PM | #314 | ||
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But we are getting offtopic, so BTT: Most people either don't care if its a DCT or converter (probably the majority) or actually prefer a converter (less than those who are indifferent about it, but still more than the group that prefers the DCT), so BMW did the correct thing and put a converter in the car. Again: Remember this forum has a skewed view. Last edited by Flamingi; 05-29-2020 at 01:10 PM.. |
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05-29-2020, 01:42 PM | #315 | |
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The M340i was the right car for these people to buy. It's pretty much exactly as fast as the M3, and perhaps even faster for the 'stoplight racing' benchmark that 90% of people use. Their badge envy (and BMW marketing) made them buy the wrong car. This is why we end up with 'special editions' like GTS having truly impractical features like water-cooling and a roll-cage, and being stupidly overpriced. Instead of those variants being aimed at a production run of 250, perhaps these models could aim at a production run of 10,000 and have the "impractical" features that "enthusiast" M owners actually want - e.g. I'd rather pay $5K extra for a transmission that is actually enjoyable for track driving than for a pointless CF bonnet. This is what the CS (or even Comp) version should be IMHO. A car that an enthusiast would want to buy that spends the extra cost on track-centric features. But then I suppose the M340i folks would just buy the CS model and complain. Last edited by pbar; 05-29-2020 at 02:03 PM.. |
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05-29-2020, 02:02 PM | #316 | ||
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Of course it's sad for enthusiast, but that's the minority, so they don't have the same impact in development. I would also love to see CS or GTS versions without limited production for lower prices... But in the end, it's still the same thing I said like 3 times already, they did buy the right car: Quote:
Edit: That was for the old supra. So probably not super easy to do that... Last edited by Flamingi; 05-29-2020 at 02:15 PM.. |
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05-29-2020, 02:20 PM | #317 | |||
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With the G80, it will be the right car for BMW's profit, and the right car for their use case. But the wrong car for any driving enthusiast, and eventually that reputation will render the M "brand" worthless. Quote:
The question is... should I spend 20K making a G82 into the car I want (with all the maintenance/warrant hassle that implies), or should I buy an AMG E53 with a DCT and improve the handling? |
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05-29-2020, 02:34 PM | #318 | |||
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Last edited by Flamingi; 05-29-2020 at 02:42 PM.. |
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05-29-2020, 02:59 PM | #319 | ||
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Now I'm out of backup options again. (C63S was actually nice to drive, but just a bit too bloated) |
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05-29-2020, 03:06 PM | #320 | |
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06-04-2020, 02:11 PM | #322 |
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In a recent video, it sounds like mule MC1-1436 has dual clutch. You can hear it shifts much faster than mule MD1-1746 on both up and downshifts. (And RWD!)
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06-04-2020, 02:40 PM | #323 |
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Do we know which automatic/DCT the car will have? I was under the impression it would have the ZF8 like the M5.
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06-04-2020, 09:28 PM | #324 |
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Hopefully DCT is installed on pure RWD versions. AWD will have ZF8.
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06-04-2020, 09:36 PM | #325 | |
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It seems much more likely that they've tuned the hell out of the ZF8 downshift so it sounds fast... but that won't necessarily make it a driver's car if the shifts lag from paddle input, or if the ratios are too closely spaced to use in manual. I don't see how we can infer any of that from a ring video? I don't want to be a passenger in my own M-car! |
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06-04-2020, 11:19 PM | #326 | |
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It's likely their last chance to make another great M3/4 with pure ICE, so I hope they make it count by not compromising anything.
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06-11-2020, 02:21 AM | #328 | |
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For BMW is just a cost argument, the number of M models sold is by far less than regular models and doesn't make sense for them to source and support such specialized part just for these cars that's a fraction of their fleet sold every year. I have owned both AT (ZF) in M235i and DCT M3. The ZF shifts weren't slow but they were mushy and soft for lack of a better word. Not as crisp as the M3. when driving really hard (track for e.g.) you can tell the difference in shifting lag and how fast the rev's respond. I am no pro so if I could tell the difference I'm sure a hardcore driver will too
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06-11-2020, 01:16 PM | #329 | |
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A few days ago Car and Driver tested a 992 Carrera 4 with a few options, MSRP 129k. That is overpriced. |
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06-11-2020, 01:23 PM | #330 | |
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In the end we're getting what people have been asking for. BMW used to build an M3 for ~70k with all the goodies, but now they're copying the Porsche business model that unless you have money for a GT3 you are a peasant. In this new peasant mentality, BMW M does things like: -gives F8X 1.3g oil threshold vs 1.4g on E9X. Gives GTS 1.4g -removes CF driveshaft from F8X, only gives CS/GTS versions the CF goodies -breaks what the E9X fixed in terms of fuel starvation. Now the F8X fuel starves like there is no tomorrow. GTS is supposed to have a fix and I bet with the G8X generation this will extend to the DCT. If you are a peasant you will wind up with a auto which will be a liability at the track. If you are not a peasant you will be able to access a DCT. |
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