[ScullyD]

Originally Posted by HudsonHornett

Totally agree with this - just a dumb review. I get that the guy wanted an M2 CSL, but BMW didn't make one of those though, so he should just review the M4 CSL as it is and not get too caught up with the naming of it. It's also odd that he praised the GT4 RS so highly as a road car - anyone that I know who has had one for an extended period of time doesn't like the GT4 RS on the road, it's too noisy and I'm guessing very firm. Awesome track car though and I'm sure I'd love one!

The thing is, the M2 CS was an M2 CSL in the same way the E46 CSL was. Both cars had back seats and as much weight as possible was removed from the cars to make them still usable road cars. A tad more lightweighting could have been done (carbon interior door panels, carbon bootlid, maybe some carbon front fenders) which may have removed another 40 lbs max. I truly believe they did the best they could with the car. Top Gear magazine was super hard on this car as being "not far enough" and "pointless".

The e46 CSL will always be most special because it was faster than Porsche and Ferrari around the ring at the time. The GT3 was only manual and the SMG-2 was faster than other single clutch equivalents. At the time it was totally panned (I think it was 8th in eCotY). I assume people hype it now with the assumption everyone is swapping to a manual in it, and then it becomes an engine note car (ie people buy it just to rev it to redline, rinse repeat).

The M4 CSL now is definitely BMWs best effort to produce a car that was usable on road and track. Reviewers didn't like the M4 GTS when it came out and buyers didn't buy it because of the rear wing, cage, water injection, manually adjustable suspension and carbon front splitter. Eventually it was given its due after a bit of time passed. The M4 CSL was bmw trying to respond to customer demand for a track focused car that also worked on the street. To me it seems like they nailed the brief but I need to drive it.

[HudsonHornett]

Originally Posted by ScullyD

The thing is, the M2 CS was an M2 CSL in the same way the E46 CSL was. Both cars had back seats and as much weight as possible was removed from the cars to make them still usable road cars. A tad more lightweighting could have been done (carbon interior door panels, carbon bootlid, maybe some carbon front fenders) which may have removed another 40 lbs max. I truly believe they did the best they could with the car. Top Gear magazine was super hard on this car as being "not far enough" and "pointless".

The e46 CSL will always be most special because it was faster than Porsche and Ferrari around the ring at the time. The GT3 was only manual and the SMG-2 was faster than other single clutch equivalents. At the time it was totally panned (I think it was 8th in eCotY). I assume people hype it now with the assumption everyone is swapping to a manual in it, and then it becomes an engine note car (ie people buy it just to rev it to redline, rinse repeat).

The M4 CSL now is definitely BMWs best effort to produce a car that was usable on road and track. Reviewers didn't like the M4 GTS when it came out and buyers didn't buy it because of the rear wing, cage, water injection, manually adjustable suspension and carbon front splitter. Eventually it was given its due after a bit of time passed. The M4 CSL was bmw trying to respond to customer demand for a track focused car that also worked on the street. To me it seems like they nailed the brief but I need to drive it.

Yeah I agree - I think they've nailed the brief but until I've tried it, it's difficult to judge. Also, I only want it to have a broad range of capability, fun on track but usable everyday, if I wanted to. It's not a big deal to swap over tyres (other that the cost), so I might get some all season tyres for winter and just use the Cup 2Rs in the summer and track days obviously.

[ScullyD]

Originally Posted by HudsonHornett

Yeah I agree - I think they've nailed the brief but until I've tried it, it's difficult to judge. Also, I only want it to have a broad range of capability, fun on track but usable everyday, if I wanted to. It's not a big deal to swap over tyres (other that the cost), so I might get some all season tyres for winter and just use the Cup 2Rs in the summer and track days obviously.

While you bring that up, only BMW seems to have given this car to road testers with Cup2 Rs.

Porsche, with the GT3 and GT4 RS, did their Nurburgring laps with Cup 2Rs and then give the car to road testers with regular Cup2s or PZero Corsas (in the case of a GT3 touring).

I believe if you order a new GT3 or GT4 RS, it also comes on Cup2's (someone please confirm).

Point is, all this "tire temperature" nonsense that Top Gear bellyached about with the M4 CSL was related to Cup2 Rs and would likely impact other cars with the same tires. I assume the recent GT3 RS track test was on Cup 2Rs that were pre-warmed.

Tire rack does have BMW "Star Marked" Cup 2 Connects, Cup 2R Connects, PS4s, Super Sports, PZeros and PZero Corsas in this wheel size (Kudos to BMW for all these star marked options). A set of the wheels also seem to be fairly cheap, I think another $2800, which is another testament to BMW thinking about the customer.

Yokohama put out an Advan Neova in this tire size also recently. So there is no shortage of tire options.

[HudsonHornett]

Originally Posted by ScullyD

While you bring that up, only BMW seems to have given this car to road testers with Cup2 Rs.

Porsche, with the GT3 and GT4 RS, did their Nurburgring laps with Cup 2Rs and then give the car to road testers with regular Cup2s or PZero Corsas (in the case of a GT3 touring).

I believe if you order a new GT3 or GT4 RS, it also comes on Cup2's (someone please confirm).

Point is, all this "tire temperature" nonsense that Top Gear bellyached about with the M4 CSL was related to Cup2 Rs and would likely impact other cars with the same tires. I assume the recent GT3 RS track test was on Cup 2Rs that were pre-warmed.

Tire rack does have BMW "Star Marked" Cup 2 Connects, Cup 2R Connects, PS4s, Super Sports, PZeros and PZero Corsas in this wheel size (Kudos to BMW for all these star marked options). A set of the wheels also seem to be fairly cheap, I think another $2800, which is another testament to BMW thinking about the customer.

Yokohama put out an Advan Neova in this tire size also recently. So there is no shortage of tire options.

GT3 RS definitely was tested with pre warmed Cup 2 R tyres. I read it in one of the reviews. That's gonna be BIG money in the UK though. You can easily spec it to £230k and I reckon you can roughly double that for the overs that this car will be initially offered for.

But yeah, I agree there is enough tyre choice for the CSL, but the main thing for me is that is was developed with the Cup 2 R in mind, so it should be at its best on that tyre.

GT3 definitely comes with the Cup 2 from the factory but not sure about the GT4 RS, I think it comes with Cup 2s as well?

[Gunnerforlife]

Originally Posted by ScullyD

I think at this point, just need to drive the car past break in and see what it's about. This car was made to be both usable and trackable, and it's being dinged for really bizarre reasons (almost with a motivation to convince BMW to make a certain type of car with the M2 CS/CSL). For example, I'd love to see a comparison of the ZF in the CSL to the implementation of the ZF in Project 8, Alfa GTAm, and the M5 CS. But that would require journalists to stop acting like morons.

Barring a few weird things (like HUD, CA, wireless charging pad but no cup holders, and things like rear arm rests), I think they made the best M4 they possibly could.

But I'll be objective when I get mine and break it in, and if for some reason it's a confused car, I'll be happy to call it out here and agree with them.

Honestly I don't get it. I personally agree that all sports cars should have a DCT and I'm pretty disappointed that BMW stopped making them. However, I did not see them criticize the ZF so much in the M4C when actually the CSL ZF tuning is much more exciting, sharper and more like a DCT on upshifts than in an M4C. It's like Top Gear is trying to find any ways to hate on the CSL because it doesn't fit what they wanted.

[Gunnerforlife]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

Seems like the same guy throughout the whole review - his gripe is with its streetability and use of the CSL moniker, instead seeing it more as a GTS equivalent, hence why he liked it so much on track. He never once talked down its performance. Special edition BMWs always face criticism, much true and much not… wouldn’t get too worked up about it.

The whole thing about the car not being steerable is baffling. I just took the car out last weekend in Boston which is notorious for horrible streets. It took the edge of most bumps perfectly in sport and didn't beat me up. In fact it was more plush than my GTI. I drove it for hours in full bucket seats and once you find a back road it's a lot of fun and confidence inspiring. It's definitely not a GTS.

The only thing I agree with is that this PS4 tires is not tactile enough for a car like the CSL and they should've gone with a Cup2 as a middle of the way tire.

[Gunnerforlife]

Originally Posted by ScullyD

I think at this point, just need to drive the car past break in and see what it's about. This car was made to be both usable and trackable, and it's being dinged for really bizarre reasons (almost with a motivation to convince BMW to make a certain type of car with the M2 CS/CSL). For example, I'd love to see a comparison of the ZF in the CSL to the implementation of the ZF in Project 8, Alfa GTAm, and the M5 CS. But that would require journalists to stop acting like morons.

Barring a few weird things (like HUD, CA, wireless charging pad but no cup holders, and things like rear arm rests), I think they made the best M4 they possibly could.

But I'll be objective when I get mine and break it in, and if for some reason it's a confused car, I'll be happy to call it out here and agree with them.

Let's be honest, while most of us love the previous M2. As a platform, the F8x was challenged and struggled with rear traction. It would've struggled to be the fastest BMW on the ring. The new G8x has unbelievable rear traction for a front-engine RWD.

[HudsonHornett]

Originally Posted by Gunnerforlife

The whole thing about the car not being steerable is baffling. I just took the car out last weekend in Boston which is notorious for horrible streets. It took the edge of most bumps perfectly in sport and didn't beat me up. In fact it was more plush than my GTI. I drove it for hours in full bucket seats and once you find a back road it's a lot of fun and confidence inspiring. It's definitely not a GTS.

The only thing I agree with is that this PS4 tires is not tactile enough for a car like the CSL and they should've gone with a Cup2 as a middle of the way tire.

Your opinion and that of Higgs Bison are of way more interest to me than some guys on TG, who are only hooning around for an afternoon.

I reckon it'll be an awesome bit of kit! You only have to see the guy driving it on track and look at the emotions he's feeling whilst driving the car to see that it's clearly an awesome bit of kit but he clearly wants to give a damming indictment so that he can let BMW know that the car isn't what he personally expected.

[ScullyD]

Originally Posted by Gunnerforlife

Let's be honest, while most of us love the previous M2. As a platform, the F8x was challenged and struggled with rear traction. It would've struggled to be the fastest BMW on the ring. The new G8x has unbelievable rear traction for a front-engine RWD.

Yeah i think the M2 CS was the best version of that car (meaning over the never released CSL). There is very little it needs over what it is. BMW made the right decision with that car, shown by its ECotY win.

I think they may have made the right decision with the CSL too (ie no cage, more usability). We just need to figure out the right set of tires for it (cause its not going to be a Cup2R for more than 1 lap, and it seems like its not the PS4s either).

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by Gunnerforlife

The whole thing about the car not being steerable is baffling. I just took the car out last weekend in Boston which is notorious for horrible streets. It took the edge of most bumps perfectly in sport and didn't beat me up. In fact it was more plush than my GTI. I drove it for hours in full bucket seats and once you find a back road it's a lot of fun and confidence inspiring. It's definitely not a GTS.

The only thing I agree with is that this PS4 tires is not tactile enough for a car like the CSL and they should've gone with a Cup2 as a middle of the way tire.

Anything can be streetable, even a GTS. Modern club sport dampers can easily handle the street when adjusted correctly. I’m just pointing out that this reviewer’s opinion is not inconsistent; not agreeing or disagreeing. CSL is just going thru the same type of treatment that the GTS went thru when it was launched… case in point: Jason Cammisa’s hit piece.

G8X Cup 2s are pretty good for what they are, but I think I agree with BMW for not putting them on the car as standard. The vast majority of buyers aren’t going to use that potential and truthfully speaking the G8X PS4S is a wildly good tire for a UHP summer. Plus, Cup 2s are better measured in heat cycles than miles and after 15 or so grip falls off, and after 20 or so they’re a bit of a grease fest… and my fronts are absolutely shredded. I only have 4k miles on them and they’re toast. Also, the difference in feel isn’t night & day between the two FWIW.

[gnx]

[HudsonHornett]

Originally Posted by gnx

Wow! That is one FAST car! Very different to the other GT3 Vs CSL video too!

[PLF69]

I don't really enjoy TH reviews personally but I have to say except for finding the suspension stiff riding (wich I don't) they describe pretty much how I feel and perceive the car. It really is a fun car to drive !

https://youtu.be/AAMiSpQxGwU

[DO444]

Originally Posted by Gunnerforlife

The whole thing about the car not being steerable is baffling. I just took the car out last weekend in Boston which is notorious for horrible streets. It took the edge of most bumps perfectly in sport and didn't beat me up. In fact it was more plush than my GTI. I drove it for hours in full bucket seats and once you find a back road it's a lot of fun and confidence inspiring. It's definitely not a GTS.

The only thing I agree with is that this PS4 tires is not tactile enough for a car like the CSL and they should've gone with a Cup2 as a middle of the way tire.

Can confirm streets in Boston are utter shit.
They aren’t really streets. They are potholes with some intermittent asphalt.

There is some fun to be had though, around 1/2am south side of Boston or 93S out of the city, Rt 1 north is a joy, rt 128 also… only at night when there is no one on them. Boston has great highways for Mexico runs.

I remember doing 95mph on 95 north and a statie flew by my doing at least 110/120 without his lights on. Didn’t even bother to check me. Definitely not the norm but he scared the snot out of me… like a shark coming out of the water in the dead of night.

I proceeded to do 65mph to the border.

[gnx]

No idea who this dude is, nice video, plenty of upshifts, the ZF8 here reminds me of the Gulia QV.

[cslll]

Originally Posted by gnx

No idea who this dude is, nice video, plenty of upshifts, the ZF8 here reminds me of the Gulia QV.

I was staying at the hotel where this review started from, it's in Rancho Mirage (Palm Springs) and there were about 25 electric BMWs and a ton of BMW sales reps staying there.....guessing it was an electric training week or something. Never realized there was a CSL on the premises or I would have gone and got a preview! Mine's waiting at the port in Germany......

[PLF69]

Here is the review of the E46 CSL by Henry Catchpole

Really not the kind of review I was expecting, I honestly don't care much for the 20 year old E46 CSL and he wastes more than half of the time talking about it. I would of liked he talked more about how the car feels but I have to admit he wasn't on the right tires and neither sitting in the good seats to begin with..

https://youtu.be/0Rg4Cmh-dNE

[ScullyD]

Originally Posted by PLF69

Here is the review of the E46 CSL by Henry Catchpole

Really not the kind of review I was expecting, I honestly don't care much for the 20 year old E46 CSL and he wastes more than half of the time talking about it. I would of liked he talked more about how the car feels but I have to admit he wasn't on the right tires and neither sitting in the good seats to begin with..

https://youtu.be/0Rg4Cmh-dNE

The car will undoubtedly be at EVO CotY, most likely in warm conditions on a track (since they have to test the GT4 RS in its proper environment as well).

I'd say that will end up being the last word in how it compares to other cars instead of it's badge.

[Hit_Apex]

https://www.bmwblog.com/2022/11/09/b...onboard-video/
How did it fare? The BMW M4 CSL needed 1 minute and 29.54 seconds to complete a lap of the 2.28-mile (3.67-kilometer) track with its 13 turns. The lap time is inconclusive on its own, so we need to compare it with other performance cars driven by the same pilot. Earlier this year, Guido Naumann drove the Porsche 718 Cayman GT4 RS to a virtually identical lap time of 1:29.12, although it should be mentioned that the mid-engined machine from Zuffenhausen had Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 R tires.

[HudsonHornett]

Originally Posted by Hit_Apex

https://www.bmwblog.com/2022/11/09/b...onboard-video/
How did it fare? The BMW M4 CSL needed 1 minute and 29.54 seconds to complete a lap of the 2.28-mile (3.67-kilometer) track with its 13 turns. The lap time is inconclusive on its own, so we need to compare it with other performance cars driven by the same pilot. Earlier this year, Guido Naumann drove the Porsche 718 Cayman GT4 RS to a virtually identical lap time of 1:29.12, although it should be mentioned that the mid-engined machine from Zuffenhausen had Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 R tires.

That looked awesome! Interesting comparison with the GT4 RS, that car is about 15s faster than the CSL around the 'ring - wonder why that is?

[Gunnerforlife]

That's a nice lap. The car looked balanced and fun to drive with no hints of understeer. It's also faster than some very good cars on the list.

[HudsonHornett]

Just watched the GT4 RS official 'ring time. It's only 10s faster than the CSL, also, it has a non-standard race seat and no infotainment (and probably no aircon either). It's hard to tell if there is even a passenger seat in the car. Whereas the CSL looks like it's literally just a normal road car that's just been spanked around the 'ring. Now given the RS is already 200kg lighter than the CSL and has a full complement of aero to keep it nailed down and has only a 60bhp-ish deficit to the BMW, that makes the CSL time all the more impressive!