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      10-16-2021, 03:27 PM   #23
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The used car market is insane right now, and it’ll most likely continue for another 18+ months. I wouldn’t expect prices to be that low in that time, it may be more like $85k+
You could be right, would be unfortunate, as even $80k would absolutely max me out. The industry experts have been saying 12-18 months before things return to normal. That's what I've been going buy. They are basing that on when full production of new sports and performance cars is expected to return, etc. etc.

It's hard to imagine anyone spending 85, or even $80k, for a 2021 M4 that stickered for $92k,two years earlier. But again, who know. For my sake, I hope you're wrong. Otherwise, I'll need to accept a much less desirable solution for buying a car in 16-18 months. And, for what will almost certainly be my last car purchase, that would be very disheartening.
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      10-17-2021, 12:50 AM   #24
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The F8x is a great car, but the G8x represents the incorporation of too many learnings and fixes and improvements by BMW M to consider going back.

-Handling is much improved. The front end grip combined with the rear end stability yields a far more confidence-inspiring drive than the old car. And there’s materially more performance. The car outperforms the size and weight specs. This is as close to a current-gen 911 S as an M3 has ever gotten.

-Steering is sharper, with practically no dead zone.

-Power delivery is improved. It’s managed noticeably better at the wheels, with wheelspin happening less of the time when unintended, and more controllable when intended. The powerband is a return to old-school M, low-end softness paired with an exciting high-revving payoff. S58 is reliable with no known common issues.

-Interior quality is improved. It’s got better use of leather, carbon fiber, aluminum, and high-quality plastics splashed on a more modern design. The leather doesn’t wear as fast as the leather in F82 (standard seats; not sure about CF buckets). M1/M2 button placement is much better and encourages liberal use (I sometimes switch modes for individual corners).

-Updated tech. Full-screen CarPlay, full 360 surround view, ventilated/cooled seat option, improved HUD graphics, power trunk, proximity Comfort Access, remote start (Comp-only, though a few 6MT folks got it enabled), laser high beams, independent exhaust valve control, independent rev-matching toggle (6MT), new iDrive, (somewhat) useful voice assistant, digital cluster with lots of display options.

-Updated looks. As beautiful as the F8x is, it can’t be ignored that we’ve been staring at it since its debut as a 99% complete concept at Pebble Beach in August 2013. The G8x is by default the newer and fresher design. I think it looks more special than an F82 stock vs. stock; things like the larger exhaust pipes and aggressive diffuser trim, air curtains through the front bumper that are visible through the wheel well from behind, the overall size and width, and the grilles make it clear where the car sits on the overall totem pole. It’s arguably the most aggressive stock M3/M4 design yet. I’ve received lots of compliments from several folks covering a wide demographic. I’m fortunate to be one of those who ended up loving the design when I finally saw it in person.

It took me until the first time I took the car around a corner at speed to really warm up to it, as the comfort and refinement at lower speeds are initially deceiving. The handling is a revelation coming out of an F8x. Then I came out of break-in, took it to redline, and that sealed the deal. It manages to excel at both daily driving and actual track work. No M3 has ever struck this balance this well right out of the box.

I think this is the M3 that BMW M has always tried to build.
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      10-17-2021, 02:32 AM   #25
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The question at the moment, is, at current used prices, is the G82 worth $20-25k more than a pristine, low mileage certified F82?
I don't think so. The f80 is smaller, more nimble, lighter, and can be had with a DCT a faster and more interesting transmission. Normally you pay extra for those things, you certainly will on the CS.
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      10-17-2021, 04:10 AM   #26
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The question at the moment, is, at current used prices, is the G82 worth $20-25k more than a pristine, low mileage certified F82?
I don't think so. The f80 is smaller, more nimble, lighter, and can be had with a DCT a faster and more interesting transmission. Normally you pay extra for those things, you certainly will on the CS.
But it's more luxurious, has a higher tuning threshold, dramatically outperforms the f8x on track, and has no known Achilles heel(crankhub)…

Not to mention real world figures have the g8x within 100lb of the f8x.

It also sounds a lot better
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      10-17-2021, 04:24 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by 'Cane View Post
The used car market is insane right now, and it’ll most likely continue for another 18+ months. I wouldn’t expect prices to be that low in that time, it may be more like $85k+
You could be right, would be unfortunate, as even $80k would absolutely max me out. The industry experts have been saying 12-18 months before things return to normal. That's what I've been going buy. They are basing that on when full production of new sports and performance cars is expected to return, etc. etc.

It's hard to imagine anyone spending 85, or even $80k, for a 2021 M4 that stickered for $92k,two years earlier. But again, who know. For my sake, I hope you're wrong. Otherwise, I'll need to accept a much less desirable solution for buying a car in 16-18 months. And, for what will almost certainly be my last car purchase, that would be very disheartening.
You have to factor in the possibility of massive inflation in a year or two as well.
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      10-17-2021, 04:30 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by akkando View Post
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Originally Posted by TWO-BMW View Post
The question at the moment, is, at current used prices, is the G82 worth $20-25k more than a pristine, low mileage certified F82?
I don't think so. The f80 is smaller, more nimble, lighter, and can be had with a DCT a faster and more interesting transmission. Normally you pay extra for those things, you certainly will on the CS.
But it's more luxurious, has a higher tuning threshold, dramatically outperforms the f8x on track, and has no known Achilles heel(crankhub)…

Not to mention real world figures have the g8x within 100lb of the f8x.

It also sounds a lot better
Better sound would be nice but I think if you're looking at M cars luxury and tech are not your highest priorities. If they are what you want there are other brands that do it better. Sure it's faster but a Tesla plad is even faster. In this generation it seems like speed isn't very interesting, I'd rather have something fun where I actually feel something. I'm sure the new c63 is going to be very fast, with a 4 cylinder and electric motor but that doesn't interest me.
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      10-17-2021, 10:16 AM   #29
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TrentMeister View Post
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Originally Posted by akkando View Post
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Originally Posted by TWO-BMW View Post
The question at the moment, is, at current used prices, is the G82 worth $20-25k more than a pristine, low mileage certified F82?
I don't think so. The f80 is smaller, more nimble, lighter, and can be had with a DCT a faster and more interesting transmission. Normally you pay extra for those things, you certainly will on the CS.
But it's more luxurious, has a higher tuning threshold, dramatically outperforms the f8x on track, and has no known Achilles heel(crankhub)…

Not to mention real world figures have the g8x within 100lb of the f8x.

It also sounds a lot better
Better sound would be nice but I think if you're looking at M cars luxury and tech are not your highest priorities. If they are what you want there are other brands that do it better. Sure it's faster but a Tesla plad is even faster. In this generation it seems like speed isn't very interesting, I'd rather have something fun where I actually feel something. I'm sure the new c63 is going to be very fast, with a 4 cylinder and electric motor but that doesn't interest me.
I've driven my share of f82 and I wouldn't say they're more "fun". *aside from dct*

Especially the garbage eps those cars came with and unpredictable rear end.

It definitely doesn't look more fun getting gap'd by a car with just a Racechip from any speed when you're fbo with e85.

And in what world are m cars not a balance of luxury and performance?

I'll certainly admit the f87 is definitely more fun.
F82 is just worse.
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      10-17-2021, 10:36 AM   #30
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After owning two F82 and then the G82, I wound up with an F80 after about two months of ownership and I haven't missed the G82 a single day.

The only thing I liked about the G82 were the carbon seats. Yes it was faster, but it was nowhere near as fun to drive as the F82 to me. I couldn't get past the looks, and absolutely nobody cared about the car. I was a rockstar in my modded YMB F82 Comp, constant waves, honks, pointing, people asking me about the car, etc. Only younger people even gave the G82 a second look, I was completely invisible in the G82 which I didn't like as I enjoy using cars as a conversation piece with random people. The car had ZERO road presence, it looks nothing like a hunkered down F8x bulldog.

Not saying it wasn't a good car, it was, but the F8x to me personally is the far more fun and better looking vehicle. Back in an F80 now, and once again feedback from people is incredible. I get more "nice car" and assorted compliments on the F80 in one day than two entire months with the G82. With KW V3s installed as well, it's just a little go kart and I love it. I also don't get all the comments about the G82 having a far superior interior. Outside the carbon seats, I prefer the interior of the F8x. I hate digital gauges too, give me the F8x dials all day long. I also really hated looking at the mirrors while driving the G82. Coming from the F8x with their gorgeous side mirrors which are just perfection, the mirrors on the G82 reminded me of something from a big diesel truck. They're just terrible, and it would be nice if a company like Vorsteiner or the like made replacements which more resemble those from the F8x and not some blocky things that look like a tacked on afterthought.

The one big plus for the G82 outside the extra power is the grip. The car grips like a monster, coming from the F8x cars that's the very first thing you'll notice while driving in anger. But again, personally I didn't like that. I like a car that is rough in comparison, and again to me the F8x is just more fun. The G82 is a computer, a faster, better, more capable driving car. To me however the fun is lost, and the looks......well never mind hah.
I was driving on 95 a couple months ago and drove by a tanzanite G80. It stuck out like a sore thumb. Tons of presence and made all the cars around it look so boring and narrow. This wasn't my first time seeing a G80 too. I test drove one for four hours a couple months prior. I will admit the F80 has a ton of road presence too, but G80, IMO, has more. The G82 is a different story though. I think it looks meh and not aggressive enough.
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      10-17-2021, 01:03 PM   #31
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You have to factor in the possibility of massive inflation in a year or two as well.
Wow, I've heard a lot of potential negatives for the future, but not any serious inflation. Of course, who really knows? However, per the recent predictions by national financial experts, and my financial team, we are likely heading for a serious economic drop in the US somewhere between this coming spring and early summer. But that causes the opposite effect. Houses and used car and other significant things drop in price, and value.
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      10-17-2021, 01:06 PM   #32
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I've driven my share of f82 and I wouldn't say they're more "fun". *aside from dct*

Especially the garbage eps those cars came with and unpredictable rear end.

It definitely doesn't look more fun getting gap'd by a car with just a Racechip from any speed when you're fbo with e85.

And in what world are m cars not a balance of luxury and performance?

I'll certainly admit the f87 is definitely more fun.
F82 is just worse.
Your comment brings up an important question. I'm aware of the "unpredictable rear end" situation that afflicts the F82's, having driven a non Competition package car twice. When I brought that up in an F80 forum, I received numerous responses that as long as you got a car with the Competition package, it was a no issue, as the upgraded rear end included in that package solved the problem.

Has anyone experienced that, just for reference?
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      10-17-2021, 01:13 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by TrentMeister View Post
I've driven my share of f82 and I wouldn't say they're more "fun". *aside from dct*

Especially the garbage eps those cars came with and unpredictable rear end.

It definitely doesn't look more fun getting gap'd by a car with just a Racechip from any speed when you're fbo with e85.

And in what world are m cars not a balance of luxury and performance?

I'll certainly admit the f87 is definitely more fun.
F82 is just worse.
Your comment brings up an important question. I'm aware of the "unpredictable rear end" situation that afflicts the F82's, having driven a non Competition package car twice. When I brought that up in an F80 forum, I received numerous responses that as long as you got a car with the Competition package, it was a no issue, as the upgraded rear end included in that package solved the problem.

Has anyone experienced that, just for reference?
It still had zero ability to put power down from a dig and a mid corner shift would send the ass end into the other lane.

Some might think it's fun and to a certain degree I do too, but having driven my g82 with bald tires now I don't miss the rear end being less than confidence inspiring.

F82 is still a great car worth every penny!

The g82 is just lots easier to balance through a corner without battling the oversteer threshold.
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      10-17-2021, 01:24 PM   #34
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When I’m on a drive with friends, a chassis that likes to pogo and a rear end that steps out all the time aren’t fun. That stuff gets in the way. Much better to be in the car that handles the Gs like a champ and closes gaps with relative ease.
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      10-17-2021, 01:37 PM   #35
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I was driving on 95 a couple months ago and drove by a tanzanite G80. It stuck out like a sore thumb. Tons of presence and made all the cars around it look so boring and narrow. This wasn't my first time seeing a G80 too. I test drove one for four hours a couple months prior. I will admit the F80 has a ton of road presence too, but G80, IMO, has more. The G82 is a different story though. I think it looks meh and not aggressive enough.
Yeah, I agree. The biggest mistake I made in all of this was I passed on a black G80 Comp with carbon buckets and black/orange interior. The car was about 500 miles away, and I didn't have the time to go get it (I needed to sit in it first to make sure the buckets would work). Ten days passed until I had enough free time and damn if it didn't sell the day before I was going to have them hold it for me. I think if I had bought that car I'd have stuck with it. The G82 is just meh like you said.

I still think the F8x is by far the better looking car, but that's subjective of course.
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      10-18-2021, 07:55 PM   #36
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I went from an F87 to the G80. I miss the drama of the DCT the most but everything else outside that and steering feel are improvements.
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      10-19-2021, 11:59 PM   #37
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I went from an F87 to the G80. I miss the drama of the DCT the most but everything else outside that and steering feel are improvements.
I simply cannot understand why BMW would downgrade any car, much less a full blown M, by dropping the DCT?
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      10-20-2021, 07:33 AM   #38
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I simply cannot understand why BMW would downgrade any car, much less a full blown M, by dropping the DCT?
Most likely the ZF offered better fuel economy numbers, and allows them to standardize on one automatic system rather than continuing to invest in DCTs. It's not a satisfying answer but likely comes down to $$$.
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      10-20-2021, 08:36 AM   #39
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Wow, I've heard a lot of potential negatives for the future, but not any serious inflation. Of course, who really knows? However, per the recent predictions by national financial experts, and my financial team, we are likely heading for a serious economic drop in the US somewhere between this coming spring and early summer. But that causes the opposite effect. Houses and used car and other significant things drop in price, and value.
I know several small business owners and they are seeing inflation in a big way. As an example one of them got notification last week that his main supplier was raising prices by 40% on December 1st.

We also have big energy cost increases coming just in time for winter as well. Hasn't hit as hard here yet compared to the EU and Asia, but watch what happens with propane costs and natgas over the next 60-90 days.

A lot of companies out there have held back pricing increases because the Fed and others said it was transitory. They took that to mean that there would be a quick increase and then we would see deflation and price normalization. What the Fed really meant was we will see a large price spike and then inflation, not prices, will normalize. Now they are worried that the higher inflation they have been trying to drive, will stay around a lot longer than they expected. That is likely to occur at the same time as the slow down in the global economy (for multiple reasons, new cold war with China, consumers are not willing to spend their Covid savings, continued consumer pessimism on new variants, etc) and we could see a nasty bout of stagflation.
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      10-20-2021, 08:43 AM   #40
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I went from an F87 to the G80. I miss the drama of the DCT the most but everything else outside that and steering feel are improvements.
I think drama is the right term on what people are missing. It is not performance or shift times, it is getting slammed in the back by the shifts.

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I simply cannot understand why BMW would downgrade any car, much less a full blown M, by dropping the DCT?
Cost savings and the fact that the increase in performance with the DCT is marginal at best added to the fact that the ZF is a better setup for driving in traffic or running around town.

Overall 0-60 and 1/4 mile times of the G8x platform smash the F8x as do track times. Could they be quicker with DCT, possible. Doubtful that anyone would really notice a few millisecond reduction in shift times during real world usage even on the track.
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      10-20-2021, 10:57 AM   #41
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I went from an F87 to the G80. I miss the drama of the DCT the most but everything else outside that and steering feel are improvements.
I simply cannot understand why BMW would downgrade any car, much less a full blown M, by dropping the DCT?
I don't either, you can notice the shift speed difference which is unfortunate. I believe the main issue was they didn't want to spend R&D money on making it work with AWD. I would have loved a DCT in this car with AWD.
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      10-20-2021, 02:19 PM   #42
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I don't either, you can notice the shift speed difference which is unfortunate. I believe the main issue was they didn't want to spend R&D money on making it work with AWD. I would have loved a DCT in this car with AWD.
I am really surprised that so many people can discern a .07 second difference in shift speed. Sure, the ZF8 is not as clunky as the DCT, but I can't notice a difference in shift speed.
I like being able to shift 2-3 midcorner and not worry about upsetting the car's balance.
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      10-20-2021, 02:50 PM   #43
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I don't either, you can notice the shift speed difference which is unfortunate. I believe the main issue was they didn't want to spend R&D money on making it work with AWD. I would have loved a DCT in this car with AWD.
I am really surprised that so many people can discern a .07 second difference in shift speed. Sure, the ZF8 is not as clunky as the DCT, but I can't notice a difference in shift speed.
I like being able to shift 2-3 midcorner and not worry about upsetting the car's balance.
I can notice without thinking about it. There's a much bigger delay when you bounce off the redline too
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      10-21-2021, 08:24 AM   #44
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I can notice without thinking about it. There's a much bigger delay when you bounce off the redline too
Sure, but how much of that is attributable to the smoothness of the transmission versus the DCT? The actual interruption of power is very short in either case, it just lacks the forcefulness of the DCT.
And I shift at 7k to avoid the rev limiter slowing the shifts down.

The DCT definitely has more of sports car feel to it, but the ZF8 is no slouch either.
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