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      05-10-2021, 12:09 PM   #67
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Are you still using the same M1 and M2 settings as before?
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      05-10-2021, 12:46 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Der_Wolf View Post
Are you still using the same M1 and M2 settings as before?
Currently . . .

M1/2 Settings
Transmission: S3/S3
Engine: Sport/Sport Plus
Suspension: Sport/Sport Plus
Steering: Comfort/Sport
Braking: Comfort/Sport
Traction Control: MDM/MDM
Exhaust: Full/Full

. . . always subject to a tweak, here and there.

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Last edited by ///AVM; 05-10-2021 at 01:02 PM..
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      05-10-2021, 01:43 PM   #69
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[/B]

Currently . . .

M1/2 Settings
Transmission: S3/S3
Engine: Sport/Sport Plus
Suspension: Sport/Sport Plus
Steering: Comfort/Sport
Braking: Comfort/Sport
Traction Control: MDM/MDM
Exhaust: Full/Full

. . . always subject to a tweak, here and there.

///AVM
Thanks! My m1 and m2 look similar, except I have DCT on in M1 and use D3. I want to become better with S3. I always feel like I am damaging the car when I downshift even though I am probably not. I've never driven a manual before though so I don't have the knowledge you have.
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Last edited by Der_Wolf; 05-10-2021 at 01:49 PM..
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      05-10-2021, 02:00 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by ///AVM View Post
Going back to the beginning of this thread, my overall high praise for the G80 M3C was, unfortunately, overwhelmed by one major disappointment . . . soft and slow ZF8 manual mode shifts, particularly high in the rev range.

I felt and stated it would take a small miracle for me to accept and enjoy the ZF8 manual mode in its factory form, e.g., BMW update to ZF8 transmission programming. . . well, it appears a miracle has been delivered.

After driving a few miles in start-up (COMFORT) mode to let the car warm up, M1 activated with settings previously noted (including S3 transmission). As per usual, the shifts were soft, slow and disappointing.

For whatever reason, up until now, I never sought to visually confirm S3 setting in the instrument cluster, e.g., three out of three bars. Today, however, the transmission setting caught my eye and I noticed only one bar was lit. I activated M2 - also set to S3 - and, again, only one bar was lit. I went back into the M1/2 settings and confirmed S3 setting for each. Hmmmm?

I then scrolled to the bottom of the M1/2 setting and ‘Reset’ both. Commenced driving, activated M1, confirmed three out of three bars in instrument cluster and . . . BOOOOOM! The small miracle I was after occurred!! The shifts instantly became aggressive and quick throughout the rev range. Activated M2, confirmed three bars and, once again, shifts were on par with expectation.

For those wondering, all other M1/M2 functions were activated according to intended settings. I could always see the yellow icon in the instrument cluster light up with MDM activation. Center console exhaust button always lit (green). Also, the infotainment home screen always confirmed M1/2 Engine, Suspension, Steering and Brake settings.

For whatever reason, the Transmission setting is not displayed in the infotainment home screen; only as a small icon in the instrument cluster. This represents a primary reason I never noticed it was not properly activated until now. I simply never took notice of how many bars were lit in the small icon.

I have absolutely no idea how or why my original M1/2 transmission (S3) settings were not being activated up until now? Or why the M1/2 ‘took effect’ after re-setting them?? Does not seem to matter at this point.

I had a single major problem with the G80 that was robbing me of the performance experience I had grown accustomed and expected. The problem appears solved, and I am really quite ecstatic . . . as though a small miracle occurred.

///AVM
Now that you seemed to have a new opinion with the more aggressive transmission setting, would you mind expounding upon the ZF8 vs the DCT? Is it close enough to be acceptable? What's the delay like on redline shifts in S3 mode? Thank you.
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      05-10-2021, 05:43 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Der_Wolf View Post
Thanks! My m1 and m2 look similar, except I have DCT on in M1 and use D3. I want to become better with S3. I always feel like I am damaging the car when I downshift even though I am probably not. I've never driven a manual before though so I don't have the knowledge you have.
Wolf

Not sure what you are referencing in terms of 'DCT on' with M1? Perhaps you were trying to share that you have traction control fully engaged and erroneously typed 'DCT?'

I have spent much of my driving life with MT, so controlling shift points are a high priority for me when it comes to performance cars. Also important is the actual act of shifting and 'feeling' shifts, which is why I always use the shifter; never the paddles. Do not miss the clutch.

So, yes, my specific interest in PDK/DCT and now ZF8 stems from a MT history. I completely understand your comfort level, or lack thereof, with a constantly 'wrung out' engine.

However, I can assure you these engines were built for just that and, with time, your discomfort with the 'whine' will dissipate and morph into the sound of a beautiful symphony . . . not to mention the benefits of living in the heart of the torque/power band when it comes to performance/throttle responsiveness.

Do not be afraid to live above 4K RPM, and driving the RPMs up on downshifting. Aside from the wonderful 'whine' of the engine, this will give your brakes some extra life . . . and if taking my word for all of this is not enough, it is not possible to 'money shift' with the DCT/PDK/ZF8. There are safeguards in place.

Remember, there is no rule you ever have to use 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th gears . . . unless out on the highways, I certainly find very little need for them.

A lot of this pertains to my driving style and interests, and may not ever pertain to you to the extent it does me. That is cool. Whatever brings YOU driving enjoyment is all that counts . . . just be reassured that these cars are built to be pushed hard.

Best

///AVM
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      05-10-2021, 06:17 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///AVM View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Der_Wolf View Post
Thanks! My m1 and m2 look similar, except I have DCT on in M1 and use D3. I want to become better with S3. I always feel like I am damaging the car when I downshift even though I am probably not. I've never driven a manual before though so I don't have the knowledge you have.
Wolf

Not sure what you are referencing in terms of 'DCT on' with M1? Perhaps you were trying to share that you have traction control fully engaged and erroneously typed 'DCT?'

I have spent much of my driving life with MT, so controlling shift points are a high priority for me when it comes to performance cars. Also important is the actual act of shifting and 'feeling' shifts, which is why I always use the shifter; never the paddles. Do not miss the clutch.

So, yes, my specific interest in PDK/DCT and now ZF8 stems from a MT history. I completely understand your comfort level, or lack thereof, with a constantly 'wrung out' engine.

However, I can assure you these engines were built for just that and, with time, your discomfort with the 'whine' will dissipate and morph into the sound of a beautiful symphony . . . not to mention the benefits of living in the heart of the torque/power band when it comes to performance/throttle responsiveness.

Do not be afraid to live above 4K RPM, and driving the RPMs up on downshifting. Aside from the wonderful 'whine' of the engine, this will give your brakes some extra life . . . and if taking my word for all of this is not enough, it is not possible to 'money shift' with the DCT/PDK/ZF8. There are safeguards in place.

Remember, there is no rule you ever have to use 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th gears . . . unless out on the highways, I certainly find very little need for them.

A lot of this pertains to my driving style and interests, and may not ever pertain to you to the extent it does me. That is cool. Whatever brings YOU driving enjoyment is all that counts . . . just be reassured that these cars are built to be pushed hard.

Best

///AVM
Thanks a lot for your write up! I appreciate your time and you have inspired me to not be so afraid of it.

You are right, I meant to write DSC instead of DCT*.
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      05-10-2021, 06:40 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave12285 View Post
Now that you seemed to have a new opinion with the more aggressive transmission setting, would you mind expounding upon the ZF8 vs the DCT? Is it close enough to be acceptable? What's the delay like on redline shifts in S3 mode? Thank you.
Dave

In brief, yes, I find the ZF8 S3 setting to be very acceptable and enjoyable. To expound . . .

As with the M2C itself - and using the words of others in this thread - DCT seems a little more 'raw' than ZF8 in manual mode shifts. For some, the refinement of the ZF8 shifts might actually come as a welcome change?

What is important to ME is:

(1) SPEED of the shifts. Any difference in speed between DCT and ZF8 in S3 is not within the threshold of my perception at this point.

(2) FEELING the shifts be laid down, which is why I always use the shifter and never the paddles. Do DCT shifts 'feel' better to me than ZF8 shifts? Honestly, maybe a little more 'torquey' and, thus, better . . . but I feel it is a matter of cutting hairs when it comes to significance.

The fact that the ZF8 comes equipped with a torque converter might have one anticipate that 'laying down torque' is compromised compared to DCT. Not only do I 'feel' the shifts in a fashion comparable to DCT, I find very little difficulty 'chirping' the tires going from 2nd to 3rd gears in MDM mode . . . indicating substantial torque finds its way to the rear axel.

As with shifts in general, the shifts at/near redline are vastly improved in S3 compared to S1 - as one would expect. . . small miracles

Finally, the one thing I previously mentioned and has not changed is I wish there was one less gear with the ZF8, as the lower gears are just a bit too short for my liking. That said, I will adjust and learn to accept over time. . . for reference, I am not part of the 'group think' crowd who feel lower gearing is too long in the Porsche MT offerings.

Hope that helps

///AVM
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      05-10-2021, 10:23 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///AVM View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dave12285 View Post
Now that you seemed to have a new opinion with the more aggressive transmission setting, would you mind expounding upon the ZF8 vs the DCT? Is it close enough to be acceptable? What's the delay like on redline shifts in S3 mode? Thank you.
Dave

In brief, yes, I find the ZF8 S3 setting to be very acceptable and enjoyable. To expound . . .

As with the M2C itself - and using the words of others in this thread - DCT seems a little more 'raw' than ZF8 in manual mode shifts. For some, the refinement of the ZF8 shifts might actually come as a welcome change?

What is important to ME is:

(1) SPEED of the shifts. Any difference in speed between DCT and ZF8 in S3 is not within the threshold of my perception at this point.

(2) FEELING the shifts be laid down, which is why I always use the shifter and never the paddles. Do DCT shifts 'feel' better to me than ZF8 shifts? Honestly, maybe a little more 'torquey' and, thus, better . . . but I feel it is a matter of cutting hairs when it comes to significance.

The fact that the ZF8 comes equipped with a torque converter might have one anticipate that 'laying down torque' is compromised compared to DCT. Not only do I 'feel' the shifts in a fashion comparable to DCT, I find very little difficulty 'chirping' the tires going from 2nd to 3rd gears in MDM mode . . . indicating substantial torque finds its way to the rear axel.

As with shifts in general, the shifts at/near redline are vastly improved in S3 compared to S1 - as one would expect. . . small miracles

Finally, the one thing I previously mentioned and has not changed is I wish there was one less gear with the ZF8, as the lower gears are just a bit too short for my liking. That said, I will adjust and learn to accept over time. . . for reference, I am not part of the 'group think' crowd who feel lower gearing is too long in the Porsche MT offerings.

Hope that helps

///AVM
Been reading this thread intently. I think you have the most honest and detailed review of this new platform so far and I'm pretty sure our driving styles and the things we care about the "experience" are very similar.

So I find it very interesting to hear you've changed your perception on the ZF8 now that you've modified your settings.

I too came from an M2 with a DCT and the first thing that I noticed was how "boring" the shifts were in the G80 with the zf8 during my 2 hour test drive. I missed the tire chirping / head snapping violence of the DCT. You're saying in S3 you are close to replicating this now that you've become used to it?

That's very encouraging as I figured this would just be something I'd have to live with (but also appreciating the comfort mode so I don't send my wife and newborn bouncing off the seats). If you're able to recreate that aggressive feeling even somewhat I think I'm going to be very happy once mine arrives.
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      05-11-2021, 01:34 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///AVM View Post
Dave

In brief, yes, I find the ZF8 S3 setting to be very acceptable and enjoyable. To expound . . .

As with the M2C itself - and using the words of others in this thread - DCT seems a little more 'raw' than ZF8 in manual mode shifts. For some, the refinement of the ZF8 shifts might actually come as a welcome change?

What is important to ME is:

(1) SPEED of the shifts. Any difference in speed between DCT and ZF8 in S3 is not within the threshold of my perception at this point.

(2) FEELING the shifts be laid down, which is why I always use the shifter and never the paddles. Do DCT shifts 'feel' better to me than ZF8 shifts? Honestly, maybe a little more 'torquey' and, thus, better . . . but I feel it is a matter of cutting hairs when it comes to significance.

The fact that the ZF8 comes equipped with a torque converter might have one anticipate that 'laying down torque' is compromised compared to DCT. Not only do I 'feel' the shifts in a fashion comparable to DCT, I find very little difficulty 'chirping' the tires going from 2nd to 3rd gears in MDM mode . . . indicating substantial torque finds its way to the rear axel.

As with shifts in general, the shifts at/near redline are vastly improved in S3 compared to S1 - as one would expect. . . small miracles

Finally, the one thing I previously mentioned and has not changed is I wish there was one less gear with the ZF8, as the lower gears are just a bit too short for my liking. That said, I will adjust and learn to accept over time. . . for reference, I am not part of the 'group think' crowd who feel lower gearing is too long in the Porsche MT offerings.

Hope that helps

///AVM
Excellent! I greatly appreciate the time and energy you've dedicated to this thread. Certainly quite helpful in my decision making, as we drive seemingly similarly, both with style and settings. I feel a sense of relief as I really wanted the competition model and was ok accepting the ZF8 if it was a decent replacement of the DCT but not if it was even close to resembling a traditional torque converter automatic found in most cars, in feel, not construction. Anyway, thanks again!
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      05-11-2021, 06:16 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by jonahk View Post
Been reading this thread intently. I think you have the most honest and detailed review of this new platform so far and I'm pretty sure our driving styles and the things we care about the "experience" are very similar.

So I find it very interesting to hear you've changed your perception on the ZF8 now that you've modified your settings.

I too came from an M2 with a DCT and the first thing that I noticed was how "boring" the shifts were in the G80 with the zf8 during my 2 hour test drive. I missed the tire chirping / head snapping violence of the DCT. You're saying in S3 you are close to replicating this now that you've become used to it?

That's very encouraging as I figured this would just be something I'd have to live with (but also appreciating the comfort mode so I don't send my wife and newborn bouncing off the seats). If you're able to recreate that aggressive feeling even somewhat I think I'm going to be very happy once mine arrives.
Jonah

Thank you for your kind words and other comments

I want to be clear incase not the case in prior post about the 'small miracle' . . . I did not simply 'change' the settings. Rather, the S3 setting in M1 and M2 was not activating over the first 600 miles, or so, of driving. This was remedied by 'resetting' M1 and M2.

In short, yes, I find ZF8 manual mode with S3 setting both capable and enjoyable. Overall, I am finding ZF8 couples nicely with the S58 and G80 chassis.

Of course, you will have to explore it yourself over time once your G80 arrives. You will form your own opinion that may, or may not be consistent with that of mine.

///AVM
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      05-11-2021, 08:07 AM   #77
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When I first read your initial post I thought either you were crazy or something was amiss with your transmission experience. I'm so glad you figured out the issue because this ZF8 and S58 are an excellent match and in S3 the shifts are incredibly quick!

Yesterday I spent some highway time playing in the 5-7k RPM range and feeling the power curve and shift characteristics for 3rd and 4th gear. This is in my X3MC but it is becoming more clear these powertrains behave the same. The engine power up to 7k is really astounding and shifts are crisp at the top although if you are rapidly approaching redline, you do have to shift just slightly before redline to not hit fuel cutoff. If accelerating to redline more slowly you feel the power all the way to the top and it sounds very very good.

It's good to hear from another commuter that really drives the wheels off their M car. I enjoy mine every day and use all the special M that it has to offer.
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      05-11-2021, 08:37 AM   #78
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Quote:
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When I first read your initial post I thought either you were crazy or something was amiss with your transmission experience. I'm so glad you figured out the issue because this ZF8 and S58 are an excellent match and in S3 the shifts are incredibly quick!

Yesterday I spent some highway time playing in the 5-7k RPM range and feeling the power curve and shift characteristics for 3rd and 4th gear. This is in my X3MC but it is becoming more clear these powertrains behave the same. The engine power up to 7k is really astounding and shifts are crisp at the top although if you are rapidly approaching redline, you do have to shift just slightly before redline to not hit fuel cutoff. If accelerating to redline more slowly you feel the power all the way to the top and it sounds very very good.

It's good to hear from another commuter that really drives the wheels off their M car. I enjoy mine every day and use all the special M that it has to offer.
Thank you T

Yes, I think my inadvertent ZF8 experience proved one thing for sure . . . there is a big difference between S1 and S3 When I discovered the computer 'glitch' it completely transformed my G80 driving experience.

Although slow throughout the rev-band, S1 is almost non-functional with aggressive shifting near redline . . . as per my attempt to describe in earlier posts, almost like bouncing off the rev-limiter with every shift, which might very well be the functional case? Anyway, problem solved and all is good in my world.

Indeed, these machines were meant to be driven hard and so much fun when they are driven as such.

As a side note, my local dealership got an X3M Comp in Donnignton Grey Metallic that stayed on the lot for all of about 2h. I just so happened to be getting my spacers placed when it rolled out of the detailing bay. My goodness, that Donnington Grey is an absolutely beautiful color. I recently owned a couple Macan Turbos and they were amazing feats of engineering. I know it would throw the entire G80/82 sub-forum into a frenzy if stated the Turbo performed similarly to my G80 M3C . . . so I will just keep that to myself Nonetheless, I have no doubt your X3M Comp is also quite a machine.

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      05-12-2021, 02:04 PM   #79
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Weather finally broke the 60-degree barrier today, here in northern Midwest, which has been a rare occasion since taking ownership of the G80. If the temps are above 45-degrees - which has been occurring pretty regularly by midday - I go out and treat the rubber to some road.

Been pushing the machine as hard as the roadways safely allow and - as typically seems to be the case - it has really come into its own by the time you bust that 1,000-mile marker. . . 1,200 miles service tomorrow.

The temperature reference above was interlude to an aspect of machine operation that is really important when it comes to performance. As ambient and roadside temperatures increase, so does a vehicles performance.

Much more than the tire rubber heating up and getting a bit ‘tacky’ with the pavement. The entire machine livens up a few notches. 60-degrees better than 45, and 80-degrees better than 60.

So, tomorrow, the G80 will get some fresh fluids and the temps supposed to bump up in the 70’s . . . I anticipate some serious driving enjoyment will occur as the weekend approaches.

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      05-12-2021, 05:38 PM   #80
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I thought you moved to Florida. When did you go back?
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      05-12-2021, 06:05 PM   #81
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I thought you moved to Florida. When did you go back?
Mr. M

I move around a lot . . . but keep permanent residence in Northern Midwest.

Got back north right around time I got G80.

Would like to make the south a permanent gig, and believe I will be heading back down soon.

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      05-13-2021, 09:25 PM   #82
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1,200 mile service; bullet summary of evolving impressions

Quote:
Originally Posted by ///AVM View Post
Bullet point summary after ~600 miles:

- S58 delivers power. Moves M3C chassis quick and fast.
- S58 sounds fantastic wrung-out, as well as in terms of exhaust note.
- ZF8 has too many gears and shifts are extremely disappointing.
- M3C chassis is wonderful but cannot hide its weight with aggressive turning.
Bullet point summary after 1,200 mile service (fluid swap):

- S58 delivers power. Moves M3C chassis quick and fast.
- S58 sounds fantastic wrung-out, as well as in terms of exhaust note.
- ZF8 has one too many gears but manual shifts are impressive in S3.
- M3C chassis is wonderful; handling improves significantly as suspension and steering come into their own.
- G80 M3C is surpassing high expectations I had going into purchase.

Some new cars come with features that catch you off-guard in terms of how much you enjoy one or two features. With the G80, the S58 is a highlight but I cannot say I was surprised by BMW engineering. The CF bucket seats are amazing but, again, my expectations were high going into purchase.

What has completely caught me off-guard is the HUD. In SPORT M-Mode the tachometer is RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOUR FACE; you never have to try and monitor the gauge cluster tach out of the corner of your eye.

The REALLY cool thing is that when you approach 4-5K RPM another, even larger (e.g., magnified) tach line appears above the running tach line. The magnified line lights up and progresses from yellow to red as you rev it out.

Nothing new, perhaps, to those coming from the F80/82?? New to me and I absolutely love it!!!!

///AVM

Last edited by ///AVM; 05-30-2021 at 07:55 AM..
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      05-13-2021, 09:56 PM   #83
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For those of you owning an M2C or driven one exhaustively, how does the new M3C compare in terms of the enjoyment factor and steering? (Ignore the extra power of the M3C)
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      05-14-2021, 08:07 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by buckybadger View Post
For those of you owning an M2C or driven one exhaustively, how does the new M3C compare in terms of the enjoyment factor and steering? (Ignore the extra power of the M3C)
Bucky

I think if one wants to make proper comparison, BOTH require extensive driving . . . does 1,200 miles, or so, with G80 qualify as extensive? Not sure, but that is where I currently sit.

This one driver's impression is . . . I enjoy driving the M3C as much as I did the M2C. Both offer visceral experiences that I find very satisfying when it comes to daily spirited driving.

I said at the outset of this thread, I moved from the M2C into the M3C because I wanted to experience the BMW ///M icon . . . do I think the M3C is a 'better' overall driving experience?

Yes! . . . but I am just one spirited driver out on the roadways..

///AVM
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      05-14-2021, 01:04 PM   #85
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For those of you owning an M2C or driven one exhaustively, how does the new M3C compare in terms of the enjoyment factor and steering? (Ignore the extra power of the M3C)
Bucky

I think if one wants to make proper comparison, BOTH require extensive driving . . . does 1,200 miles, or so, with G80 qualify as extensive? Not sure, but that is where I currently sit.

This one driver's impression is . . . I enjoy driving the M3C as much as I did the M2C. Both offer visceral experiences that I find very satisfying when it comes to daily spirited driving.

I said at the outset of this thread, I moved from the M2C into the M3C because I wanted to experience the BMW ///M icon . . . do I think the M3C is a 'better' overall driving experience?

Yes! . . . but I am just one spirited driver out on the roadways..

///AVM
Cool, is M3C more fun?
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      05-14-2021, 02:25 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by ///AVM View Post
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Originally Posted by buckybadger View Post
For those of you owning an M2C or driven one exhaustively, how does the new M3C compare in terms of the enjoyment factor and steering? (Ignore the extra power of the M3C)
Bucky

I think if one wants to make proper comparison, BOTH require extensive driving . . . does 1,200 miles, or so, with G80 qualify as extensive? Not sure, but that is where I currently sit.

This one driver's impression is . . . I enjoy driving the M3C as much as I did the M2C. Both offer visceral experiences that I find very satisfying when it comes to daily spirited driving.

I said at the outset of this thread, I moved from the M2C into the M3C because I wanted to experience the BMW ///M icon . . . do I think the M3C is a 'better' overall driving experience?

Yes! . . . but I am just one spirited driver out on the roadways..

///AVM
Cool, is M3C more fun?
Not sure?

I look for an excuse to drive the M3C, and lot of time don't have one. Just want to get in it and drive. . . same was true of the M2C.

///AVM
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      05-14-2021, 02:33 PM   #87
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This is one of my favourite threads, thanks ///AVM. I can’t wait to see the same depth of analysis of the xDrive G80, whether or not I get one.
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      05-14-2021, 02:34 PM   #88
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The fact that the ZF8 comes equipped with a torque converter might have one anticipate that 'laying down torque' is compromised compared to DCT. Not only do I 'feel' the shifts in a fashion comparable to DCT, I find very little difficulty 'chirping' the tires going from 2nd to 3rd gears in MDM mode . . . indicating substantial torque finds its way to the rear axel.
For the benefit of this thread, the torque converter has no impact on the shifts themselves as it is locked up pretty soon after take off under load - this is one reason why ZF8 shifts are as responsive as they are given it's a traditional planetary automatic. The shifts themselves are handled by the planetary clutch packs, which ultimately can't be engaged as hard as the DCT clutches, hence why power is backed off momentarily and the shift isn't slammed under load. ZF8 shifts will never be as snappy or direct as DCT shifts, but that is due to design - doesn't mean the shifts aren't fast or have decent feel as we are talking about fine margins here. In fact, the torque converter actually provides a fairly significant advantage over the DCT in that from a launch you can brake boost it and lay down more torque at take off.

If you ask me, ZF8 having DCT level speed and having the shift feel that it does while still being designed as a traditional automatic is a pretty good deal!
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