[///AVM]

THREAD OVERVIEW

05-01-2021 Page 1 Post #1
Initial Impressions after ~600 miles . . . focus on S58/ZF8 and chassis handling

05-05-2021 Page 3 Post #54
Small miracle delivered. . . ZF8 manual mode 'glitch' remedied

05-10-2021 Page 3 Post #61
~1,000 miles and handling starting to come into its own

05-13-2021 Page 4 Post #82
1,200 mile service; bullet summary of evolving impressions

05-18-2021 Page 5 Post #98
HUD/Sport M Mode/Tachometer/Manual Shift Points

05-22-2021 Page 6 Post #120
MTC Impressions (Comparison to MDM)

05-26-2021 Page 6 Post # 132; 05-29-2021 Page 7 Post #142
HUD and Polarized Sunglasses

05-29-2021 Page 7 Post #147
Carbon Fiber Bucket Seats [CFBS]

05-31-2021 Page 8 Post #160
Full and Constant Exhaust Valve Opening

06-05-2021 Page 8 Post #175
G80 M3C Design Architecture

06-07-2021 Page 9 Post #182
Impression of Non-spirited' Driving

06-27-2021 Page 10 Post #202
Bedding-in Brake Pads/Rotors

07-04-2021 Page 10 Post #216
Confinement, Not Refinement

09-05-2021 Page 12 Post #243
ZF8 Automatic Mode

09-05-2021 Page 12 Post #244
ASD and Performance

09-05-2021 Page 12 Post #246
Revisiting MTC

*****

Wanted to provide one G80 M3C owner’s perspective after about 600 miles of seat time. Considered an initial impression, as I find it takes several weeks/months to properly understand and ‘mesh’ with a car. Nuances - both good and bad - can propagate and dissipate over time.

Spirited daily driver in a suburban setting. Do not frequent the track. Over past couple years I have moved from Porsche lineup - most recently 718 CGTS - into BMW lineup with the M2C. Great cars that provide a ‘visceral’ driving experience.

Going to focus on performance and acoustics of the S58/ZF8, again, from the perspective of a spirited daily driver. To be frank, not a fan of the G80/82 aesthetic design or road presence due to overall size. Purchase of M3C was based upon my favorable M2C ownership experience and wanting experience the performance of the latest iteration of an ///M icon.

Disclosure: MT fanboy turned PDK/DCT manual mode advocate. Always use the shifter; never the paddles. I need to ‘feel’ the shifts and, frankly, enjoy engaging the shifter while driving. Never want to give up the ability to control shift points. Love the ability to power shift. Do not miss the clutch.

///AVM

[///AVM]

Nearly all modern sport/sporty cars get you from 0-60 quickly . . . I think we all enjoy the ‘pull’ and the S58 provides plenty. However, where does the majority of enjoyment come from after the initial 3-4 seconds off the line or out of a snug turn? When most of your daily driving is trying to stay out of jail where local speed limits are 45-55 mph???

PERSONALLY, a large portion of my enjoyment comes with living at the top of the rev band. Aside from throttle response – access to the power band - I simply enjoy the sound of a wrung-out engine; very engaging and pleasing to the acoustic senses. In a post below, I will touch on chassis/handling (e.g., through turns) which is also a performance marker and source of enjoyment. In short, the S58 sounds fantastic and quite engaging when wrung-out.

On the downside . . . ZF8 is so silky smooth you do not ‘feel’ the shifts (torque) through the shifter in the manner experienced with PDK/DCT. Simply feels SOFT and SLOW.

Perhaps the single most troubling aspect of the ZF8 in manual mode is that, as you approach red line (above ~5500 RPM), the shifts become LONG and EXTREMELY FRUSTRATING. Shifts take on a ‘rebound’ that is characteristic of bouncing off the rev limiter - which I have done more than once or twice with PDK/DCT. One might suggest this is the very nature of a torque converter, however, peak torque occurs well before red line, so I have yet to make sense of this disappointing phenomenon?

As with everything I present, I am more than open to other owners sharing their experiences and feedback. Much of the ownership experience is subjective. On this topic of disappointing ZF8 shifts high in the rev band, I am wondering if I am functionally bouncing off red line? Despite my initiating the shifts clear of the rev limiter, the ZF8 shift delay might be culminating in my getting functionally pushed off the rev limiter???

Discloser II: With about 600 miles of seat time and described usage . . . yes, I am in the camp of a car needing to be ‘driven in,’ not ‘broken in.’ So, there has been no self-imposed rev-limiting.

///AVM

[///AVM]

S58 is more linear than the S55 – some describe it as more naturally aspirated-like. Further, the S58 pulls all the way to red line, unlike the M2C where things flattened out pretty noticeably after 5000-5500 RPMs. My understanding is that this is not the case with the F80/82, e.g., BMW engineers neutered the top of the S55 rev band in the M2C.

I seem to be in the midst of a compromise I had to similarly make with the M2C. To avoid the ‘flattening out’ of power, I learned to shift at a point well short of red line. Nonetheless, the DCT shifts were brisk and ‘torquey.’ In the M3C, pull is all the way to red line, but the shifts are VERY DISAPPOINTING up top, if not frankly dysfunctional. So, once again, I see myself heading down the path of having to shift near 5500 RPM.

Even though the S58 delivers power in a relatively linear fashion, there is PLENTY of low-end torque to differentiate it from most naturally aspirated engines . . . turbo lag is negligible. In this regard, very reminiscent of the GTS. Unfortunately, the ZF8 gearing is too short for my liking and you get to the top of the rev band way to quickly in lower gears.

The M2C S55 unleashes its torque out of the gate and, as per previous, the powerband flattens out well before red line. I enjoyed the M2C S55 power delivery immensely, save for the flattening out part, and seven gears appear far superior to eight gears at this point.

The S58 itself seems like a marvelous engine, however, I am not currently impressed with the ZF8, and am particularly frustrated over ZF8 shifts high in the rev band and fact that is has one too many gears.

Disclosure III: During initial driving – while engine is warming up – I drive using start-up (Comfort) settings in ZF8 automatic mode, as I have done with all recent cars having performance setting options.

///AVM

[///AVM]

In terms of S58 acoustics . . . what I have learned about turbo engines is to fully appreciate their acoustics, you have to learn to enjoy more what is coming from under the hood than out the tailpipes. No turbo is going to produce an exhaust note that rivals the GT350 or other notable naturally aspirated engines.

The S55 has a lot of ‘whine’ to it, which I really enjoy; almost like a finely tuned sewing machine. However, not particularly impressed with the S55 exhaust note compared to what the S58 produces. With MPE, what comes out of the M2C tailpipe is an amplified ‘crackly’ sound, but a majority of the ‘noise’ comes in the form of enhanced burbles on downshifts.

The wrung-out S58 produces a much deeper sound from under the hood, and more of a naturally aspirated-like ‘rumble’ out the tailpipes. Very subtle burbles in Sport Plus on downshifts, which I find just about right for my taste. Through experience, this will only improve, as exhaust notes tend to get a little deeper and decibels go up a notch after a few thousand miles.

Overall, the acoustic character of the S58 is more appealing to my senses than what the S55 has to offer.

///AVM

[///AVM]

Short post on the M3C chassis, suspension and handling, and how these things come together with the S58/ZF8 in overall performance.

M3C steering perfectly fine and adequate, as I feel is similarly true about the M2C.

The M2C suspension is fixed and firm, neither of which bother me in the least. The M3C suspension is superior, as comfort mode is the right amount of firm and comfort, while Sport and Sport Plus are firm and firmer, reminiscent of the M2C.

The S58 delivers immense power and the M3C is both quick and fast. In other words, the S58 really moves the chassis, despite its overall size/weight.

Above stated, moving weight does not hide the weight when it comes to handling. To be clear, the M3C is superb at driving in straight lines quick, fast and in relative comfort . . . but, coming from the M2C, the M3C’s weight becomes quickly apparent through the turns. The M3C is NOT loose in terms of the steering and suspension coming together, but the weight associated ‘roll’ is clear at this point.

On the scale of measures distinguishing a sport car and sporty sedan, the M3C clearly identifies itself as the latter when it comes to pushing the chassis through spirited turning. It just feels BIG. . . but I will give the chassis the deserved time to come together with steering and suspension before drawing undo conclusion.

///AVM

[///AVM]

In fairness, I need more seat time before drawing any firm conclusions on not only the S58/ZF8, but the entire driving/performance experience offered by the G80 M3C.

I must say, BMW engineers know how to engineer cars, and the M3C is engineered wonderfully. However, I am not sure the M3C will live up to my performance expectations of an ///M icon?

I am sitting on top of the fence currently and do not know which direction more seat time will take me? If pressured to draw conclusion at this very moment, I would lean toward stating the M3C has deviated too far from being a driver's car for my liking, and more into the cruiser realm. . . and it will take a small miracle for me to embrace the ZF8.

To try and summarize things down to a few bullet points:

- S58 delivers power. Moves M3C chassis quick and fast.
- S58 sounds fantastic wrung-out, as well as in terms of exhaust note.
- ZF8 has too many gears and shifts are extremely disappointing..
- M3C chassis is wonderful but cannot hide its weight with aggressive turning.

///AVM

P.S. A couple of my favorite pics

[wj100]

Thanks for writing such a thoughtful unbiased review.

It's very timely as I just finally got some seat time in a G82 today for a test drive and, in my short time behind the wheel, I can tell you I agree with your ZF8 concerns.

As a disclaimer, I've had DCTs in both an E90 and an F82 and the transmission was hands down one of the best parts of the overall experience to me (I'm a manual shifter 90% of the time).

I knew the ZF8 in the G8x wouldn't feel like the DCT, but it was more of a letdown than I expected. As a comparison, my current daily driver is an Alfa Giulia QV which also has a ZF8. So, I expected the feel to be similar in the G82. However, unfortunately that's not what I experienced. In the Alfa you still get quick shifts that are accompanied by a kick in the pants upon up shift. In my limited experience in the G82, even on the most aggressive setting, the transmission didn't provide that same visceral feel.

All that said, it's more likely than not that I will buy a G80 before my Alfa warranty is up next year. However, it's not a sure fire slam dunk like I hoped it would be.

[filostrato]

Thank you for the initial impressions and taking time to post the review

I've been trying to abide by the break in "rules" and it's interesting to hear that there is no electronic limiter at 5.5K RPM as some have stated. Another story I've heard that sounds dubious is that there is an extra 20% of top end power that is unlocked through the ECU after your break in service. As someone who regularly uses that part of the power band I'd love to hear if you notice any difference!

It's unfortunate to hear that the ZF is shifting that way under heavy load. I know many owners feel it's an acceptable compromise against the added low speed comfort, but in an M car it seems like a questionable decision...

Looking forward to hearing your further experiences and whether you end up feeling the G80 is the right car for your driving needs

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by weinerj100

Thanks for writing such a thoughtful unbiased review. . .

I knew the ZF8 in the G8x wouldn't feel like the DCT, but it was more of a letdown than I expected. . .

In my limited experience in the G82, even on the most aggressive setting, the transmission didn't provide that same visceral feel.

J

You are welcome!

ZF8 feels nothing like DCT . . . indeed

No visceral feeling is a very good descriptor . . . among other notable shortcomings

///AVM

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by filostrato

Thank you for the initial impressions and taking time to post the review.

I've been trying to abide by the break in "rules" and it's interesting to hear that there is no electronic limiter at 5.5K RPM as some have stated. Another story I've heard that sounds dubious is that there is an extra 20% of top end power that is unlocked through the ECU after your break in service. As someone who regularly uses that part of the power band I'd love to hear if you notice any difference!

It's unfortunate to hear that the ZF is shifting that way under heavy load. I know many owners feel it's an acceptable compromise against the added low speed comfort, but in an M car it seems like a questionable decision...

Looking forward to hearing your further experiences and whether you end up feeling the G80 is the right car for your driving needs

Thank you Filo

ZF8 miracle I referenced would include break-in service 'tune' that solved the issues . . . not forthcoming

As you suggest, performance compromise is not forward momentum for an ///M car icon

I will TRY and refrain from harsh conclusion until due seat time is acquired, and update as indicated . . . I fear the ZF8 sits on a fixed suspension, so to speak

Best

///AVM

[chicagofan00]

Great write up, thanks for sharing.

[barryc365]

Great review.

My last car was a M3 CSL which had violent gear shifts through the DTC which were absolutely exhilarating.

You have me worried that the ZF is not going to be enough of an 'occasion'.

I have heard the Guila QV has the same gear box with different software and it's more 'punchy' so I wonder will we be able to get the gear box remapped to be quicker and sharper?!

[JCZ5]

This is great and all, but let's get you back into a 911 for the next go around, K? 😉

I heard a GT3 touring will be right up your alley

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by barryc365

Great review.

. . . You have me worried that the ZF is not going to be enough of an 'occasion'.

I have heard the Guila QV has the same gear box with different software and it's more 'punchy' so I wonder will we be able to get the gear box remapped to be quicker and sharper?!

Thank you Barry!

Not my intent to worry you, but . . . to this point in MY experience, the ZF8 - and M3C in general - does not live up to expectations of an ///M car.

I HAD extremely high expectations for the G87, but the ZF8 alone will be a hard stop when it comes to my ongoing interest. . . for ME, even the F87 chassis is too big to consider a MT, and I am certain the G87 will not be 'condensed.'

I have never driven a Gulia QV, but most accounts suggest it is real performer . . . curious to see what the next iteration has to offer, as I believe the current iteration is on it last legs of the chassis lifecycle?

Best

///AVM

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by JCZ5

This is great and all, but let's get you back into a 911 for the next go around, K? ��

I heard a GT3 touring will be right up your alley

Brother JZ

As you know, I love me a Porsche sport car . . . but the F87 M2C drew me into the BMW lineup and is a fantastic driving machine.

I want to emphasize my posts were an initial impression of the G80 M3C, as to not be flippant in writing it off too quickly.

That said, I cannot see the ZF8 being construed as anything short of a step backwards in ///M car performance. . . the size/weight and associated handling also seem to have crossed a performance threshold for me.

Not sure I am ready to go back to Porsche just yet . . . time will tell.

///AVM

[TrentMeister]

Damn man, you've kind of burst my bubble a bit with talk of how bad the shifts are over 5.5k

I guess for me it remains to be seen for me.

[JohnBucurE92]

I wonder how much suspension technology can improve over time or if we are at the peak of it's innovation. It is said you can't hide weight, but after driving both an RS5 and an M3 (f80) it was apparent the BMW does a better job of controlling it. I know what you mean when you say it still feels like it's there -compared to the M2C. Just makes me wonder if there will ever be a workaround for the physics.

[wj100]

Originally Posted by barryc365

You have me worried that the ZF is not going to be enough of an 'occasion'.

I have heard the Guila QV has the same gear box with different software and it's more 'punchy' so I wonder will we be able to get the gear box remapped to be quicker and sharper?!

You hit the nail on the head... The DCT was an "occasion" every single day and was a big part of the E9x/F8x's personality and more importantly soul.

And, as the current Giulia QV driver in this thread, "punchy" is a great way to describe Alfa's tuning of the ZF8. It surprises me that the M division went so soft with their iteration of it... Also surprised more reviewers and consumers that have come from the DTC world aren't as concerned about this as the OP (and myself I suppose).

I know they site refinement and the lack of low speed lurching as the benefit of the ZF box, but at what cost? Seems like they've zapped the fun quotient quite significantly... And isn't that what driving an M is all about?

[PLF69]

I will be honest, I am not surprised at all by your review.

I have been following most of your threads/post from the time you were still driving your 718 GTS, I was surprised you got a M3C, I figure you ordered one without test driving one. Wich is totally normal.

I almost did the same but reasoned myself to test drive before, maybe because I had past experience with the ZF8 in a M235i, I knew a bit more what to expect and I confirmed my thaughts while test driving a M4C. I ordered a 6mt.

Anyways, I think you may need to change a bit your expectations, it's a bigger car equipped with a much more civilized transmission, anyone can use it easily, DCT not so much.. As much as many deplore BMW letting the DCT go, we need to live with it now and it's back to 6mt or slushbox. I also hated the 8zf on track because too many gears.

I hope your journey with M3C turns out to be satisfying as time goes on.

Happy Driving

[Multimodal]

///AVM, have you tested a M3 with the 6MT? I wonder if you expressed your displeasure with the ZF8 whether your dealer would let you take a 6MT for a proper hour-long test drive and get a sense for how it compares.

I have recently test driven a number of the vehicles in comparison here - a M2C DCT, M2C 6MT, F80 M3C 6MT, F82 M4 CS DCT, G80 M3 6MT and G82 M4C 8AT. (I also daily a G05 X5 50i with the ZF8 so I know it well.) The DCT was an occasion. The ZF8 is an incredible automatic but it isn't a DCT. It is more refined, which has pro and con. If "raw" equals "soul" then you will find the ZF8 has lost some soul, even if it has not actually lost any measurable performance. Regardless, because I have a ZF8 in my SUV, I will be buying a 6MT in my sporty car on principle.

[dave12285]

I'm very thankful for this review coming from someone using the ZF8 in manual mode. Not super interested about silky smooth shifts around town at low speeds but very interested in how the transmission performs when driving quickly. Sounds like a manual is the way to go for me too. I'm surprised there aren't more complaints about high rpm shifts but I also suppose there are a lot of folks still breaking in their cars. Either way, thanks again.

[Jacky Treehorn]

Before I bought my 2021 Quadrifoglio, I did back to back testing of both these cars. I found the G80 to be the "smoother" shifting of the two. Gotta be software. My 2021 Quadrifoglio transmission is sharper.

My old 991.1 C2S PDK was even more "direct", but the car was not nearly as thrilling as either of these. Also, my PDK broke down on me a couple times. I'm confident the ZF8 will be better in the long run as far as reliability because I ended up in the shop for weeks with that PDK.