[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by GJBFI

We are talking about the models with the same price range. Of course turboS will be faster for twice the price… My only point is the fact that Carrera won the test only because the M3 was not Xdrive model.

Yes I dont disagree with that logic, but a Carrera 4 with AWD will likely gain back the advantage. The 911s are just so much faster in corners and the fact that they are much lighter.

[GJBFI]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

Yes I dont disagree with that logic, but a Carrera 4 with AWD will likely gain back the advantage. The 911s are just so much faster in corners and the fact that they are much lighter.

Well maybe for the track lap but not for 0-60, 1/4 mile.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by GJBFI

Well maybe for the track lap but not for 0-60, 1/4 mile.

Agree there as well. The base 4 car only has 380 hp (so down on power by a lot)...and runs around 11.5 1/4 mile whereas the M3x is low 911s (what a Carrera S runs).

[Art__Vandelay]

I don't know if it's been discussed before, but Matt's car already had a pretty bad 0-60 mph measurement in another test if I remember right, it's weird. In almost all other reviews of the Gx the numbers were much better.

[PeregrineFalcon]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

Yes I dont disagree with that logic, but a Carrera 4 with AWD will likely gain back the advantage. The 911s are just so much faster in corners and the fact that they are much lighter.

That is certainly not true. An AWD S or GTS will absolutely be faster than the M3 xdrive on track or off.

I don't know about that?

In some cases it is actually the other way around (not talking about GTS):

https://fastestlaps.com/models/porsc...carrera-4s-992

https://fastestlaps.com/models/bmw-m4-competition-coupe

If we look at the Sachsenring lap time, the RWD M4 is actually faster around the track than the 992 4S, it has faster 0-200 km/h time and better rolling acceleration (100-200 km/h), and all that for the much lower price and overall better all-round package!

But we should wait for the new M4CS that is better comparison for the 992 2S/4S price wise.
This is the first time in history that the M3/4 is so close to the top of the range Carrera, and even better in some cases, and I have little doubt that the CS will dominate the Porsche most of the time, especialy in XDrive version.

[Puuhapete]

Originally Posted by supershaft

a M4 interior better than a P car? I doubt it. mine has the club leather which is better than the M3/4 leather and on par with M5 merino. perhaps I'd agree that the standard leather option in the 992 isn't as good as BMW but that's about it. The fit and finish is way better in the 992 overall

I don't know about the leather in the 992 but if its the same as in the Taycan, its way below par quality. You can't even compare it to Merino in my E92 and F80. And I paid 4000 eur extra for the Taycan full leather. I still love my Taycan but saying the leather is better than M3 is simply totally false. I had 175k km on my E92 when I sold it and the side bolsters on front seats had less wear than my Taycan after 16k km.

There are also other quality issues. Had to replace some plastic parts around the front tyres because I drove into a "pond" on the highway. Never ever has that happened in any of my BMW:s. And I have had loads of them. And another issue is all the software problems. Ok its a newish model and first fully electric P-car in modern times but still I would hope the software to work better if I pay 142k eur for the car.

The Taycan drives fantastic and for such a heavy car its incredible nimble but quality sucks in many areas.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by PeregrineFalcon

I don't know about that?

In some cases it is actually the other way around (not talking about GTS):

https://fastestlaps.com/models/porsc...carrera-4s-992

https://fastestlaps.com/models/bmw-m4-competition-coupe

If we look at the Sachsenring lap time, the RWD M4 is actually faster around the track than the 992 4S, it has faster 0-200 km/h time and better rolling acceleration (100-200 km/h), and all that for the much lower price and overall better all-round package!

But we should wait for the new M4CS that is better comparison for the 992 2S/4S price wise.
This is the first time in history that the M3/4 is so close to the top of the range Carrera, and even better in some cases, and I have little doubt that the CS will dominate the Porsche most of the time, especialy in XDrive version.

We already know the 992 GTS is a good bit faster in a straight line - just ran 10.9@128 mph which is a good bit faster than any M3/4X tested. Also in any head to head battle the 911 is likely to win despite having less hp (much less in the case of a base or S).
If your going to talk M4 CSL that competes with a GT3 and definitely will be an uphill battle which it’s never won before.
If you look at the Carrera S which in reality makes about 100 hp less and has a lesser power to weight, it beats not only the M3/4 Rwd, but also beats the Comp and Xdrive at every track they’ve have an overlapping time on. These M cars are fast but they are quite hefty and it shows. Over 5 or 10 laps the deltas would be quite large too.

https://fastestlaps.com/models/porsc...-carrera-s-992

https://fastestlaps.com/models/bmw-m...etition-xdrive

The 911 is faster on the Ring, Hockenheim, Sachsenring, Variano handling course. etc. Any track where there are comparable the S is faster.

I absolutely think my G80 M3 is incredible for the price but these cars make times based on power whereas the 911s make lap times more on handling and braking than pure power and to me the latter not only is more impressive but more sustainable lap after lap. Just look at how close the GT3 got the the AMG black series while being down on power by about 250 hp.
The M3 does provide a great all around package but the Porsches are just the better package for driving. And in the space of GT cars, not even close. That’s my take as the owner of both currently and many previously.
Porsches have always been more expensive. They sell at far lower numbers, so yea, they’re going to be expensive. IMO they’re well worth MSRP for the performance and quality that they delivery.

[adc]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

The 911 is faster on the Ring, Hockenheim, Sachsenring, Variano handling course. etc. Any track where there are comparable the S is faster.

I absolutely think my G80 M3 is incredible for the price but these cars make times based on power whereas the 911s make lap times more on handling and braking than pure power and to me the latter not only is more impressive but more sustainable lap after lap.

Porsches are maximized for performance from the factory, to a greater extent than the M3. Therefore, if you lightly mod the M3/4 for track/handling performance, they become close or equal. I know that for sure based on actual track data at the events I participate in.

The 911 from the factory has a greater grip-to-weight ratio. While the OEM contact patches are similar between the two cars, the Porsche weighs quite a bit less, and has the better ratio. Once you equalize the grip-to-weight ratio, say with a nice set of track wheels/tires, the performance gap disappears completely.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by adc

Porsches are maximized for performance from the factory, to a greater extent than the M3. Therefore, if you lightly mod the M3/4 for track/handling performance, they become close or equal. I know that for sure based on actual track data at the events I participate in.

The 911 from the factory has a greater grip-to-weight ratio. While the OEM contact patches are similar between the two cars, the Porsche weighs quite a bit less, and has the better ratio. Once you equalize the grip-to-weight ratio, say with a nice set of track wheels/tires, the performance gap disappears completely.

I don't disagree that you can close the gap with mods (that's always the case with any two cars), but of course the M3 still does it with substantial amount more power and torque. I mean, my G80 M3 RWD/Manual definitely feels like it has 100 more hp and torque than a Carrera S does. Dyno data confirms when a Carrera S makes about 400 to the wheels and an M3 makes 470.
If you compare a similar hp 911 like a GT3 (which still has no torque) or a GTS the 911 still much faster if all variables are static.
I don't know if you're talking about driving events or SCCA events but the former mean little because there are too many volatile variables (skill set, track prep, tires, how much each person is pushing) which make comparison next to impossible.
At the same time I surely feel that my M3 is absolutely tuned and feels more on the realm of maximized for performance. From a suspension standpoint, it feels like it needs less than my 718 GT4 does... I've not taken the G80 to the track yet but I feel like the GT4 needs more in terms of alignment than the GT does. I also think BMW did well in terms of tires this go around - the powerband and grip are incredible! Let's also be honest, the new 911's are no longer true sports cars. They're luxury oriented GT cars first and foremost now. Bigger, heavier, and absolutely primarily made to be daily drivers.

[PeregrineFalcon]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

We already know the 992 GTS is a good bit faster in a straight line - just ran 10.9@128 mph which is a good bit faster than any M3/4X tested. Also in any head to head battle the 911 is likely to win despite having less hp (much less in the case of a base or S).



https://fastestlaps.com/models/porsc...-carrera-s-992

https://fastestlaps.com/models/bmw-m...etition-xdrive

Like I said, I was not talking about GTS, I was talking about 4S or S model.
And in most head to head comparisons (on the same day), M4C was always faster than the base Carrera on the track (which was not the case in the past), and marginally slower than the S model, and if the XDrive is on average faster about 0,5 - 1sec. on some tracks than the RWD M4, it would be also as fast as 911 2S on some tracks which is nothing short of amazing!

If your going to talk M4 CSL that competes with a GT3 and definitely will be an uphill battle which itÂ’s never won before.

Again, I'm not so sure about that:

https://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/hpl1rdf20e2t

But I do agree that the new M4CSL will have a hard time beating GT3 on any track, but we have to wait and see?!

The 911 is faster on the Ring, Hockenheim, Sachsenring, Variano handling course. etc. Any track where there are comparable the S is faster.

My point is that the gap is marginal in most cases, just look at the Nürburgring Nordschleife lap times, the difference is less than a second, and I have little doubt that the incoming M4CS (which will be more comparable price wise) will be faster on the Ring than Carrera S, and probably on some other tracks which is mind blowing!

If you look at the Carrera S which in reality makes about 100 hp less and has a lesser power to weight, it beats not only the M3/4 Rwd, but also beats the Comp and Xdrive at every track theyÂ’ve have an overlapping time on. These M cars are fast but they are quite hefty and it shows. Over 5 or 10 laps the deltas would be quite large too

Do you have the data to support the claim that M4 is making 100 hp more (dyno test on the same day on the same dyno)?

I have found only one track where XDrive and Carrera S are over lapping, but like I said, on some tracks the difference might be nonexistent judging by the time RWD M4 set.

I absolutely think my G80 M3 is incredible for the price but these cars make times based on power whereas the 911s make lap times more on handling and braking than pure power and to me the latter not only is more impressive but more sustainable lap after lap. Just look at how close the GT3 got the the AMG black series while being down on power by about 250 hp.
The M3 does provide a great all around package but the Porsches are just the better package for driving. And in the space of GT cars, not even close. ThatÂ’s my take as the owner of both currently and many previously.
Porsches have always been more expensive. They sell at far lower numbers, so yea, theyÂ’re going to be expensive. IMO theyÂ’re well worth MSRP for the performance and quality that they delivery.

First we have to take in to account that the M3/4 are based on the regular street car (huge handicap from dynamic standpoint), and that they are considerably heavier which will most definitely negate the power gap (they have on average almost the same power to weight ratio).
So, to say that M3/4 is making its time just based on power is wrong, and the fact that the BMW is considerably faster on the track than its rivals with the same amount of power (Gulia, C63S etc.) is just showing that they have made a great handling car!
Also, the M4XDrive was faster on Monticello Motor Club North Course than the Cadillac CT5-V Blackwing that has significantly better power to weight ratio.

At the moment, in my opinion there is not better value for the money than the M4, with almost Carrera S performance level on the track, and the CS model will only elevate that even higher!

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by PeregrineFalcon

Like I said, I was not talking about GTS, I was talking about 4S or S model.
And in most head to head comparisons (on the same day), M4C was always faster than the base Carrera on the track (which was not the case in the past), and marginally slower than the S model, and if the XDrive is on average faster about 0,5 - 1sec. on some tracks than the RWD M4, it would be also as fast as 911 2S on some tracks which is nothing short of amazing!



Again, I'm not so sure about that:

https://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/hpl1rdf20e2t

But I do agree that the new M4CSL will have a hard time beating GT3 on any track, but we have to wait and see?!



My point is that the gap is marginal in most cases, just look at the Nürburgring Nordschleife lap times, the difference is less than a second, and I have little doubt that the incoming M4CS (which will be more comparable price wise) will be faster on the Ring than Carrera S, and probably on some other tracks which is mind blowing!



Do you have the data to support the claim that M4 is making 100 hp more (dyno test on the same day on the same dyno)?

I have found only one track where XDrive and Carrera S are over lapping, but like I said, on some tracks the difference might be nonexistent judging by the time RWD M4 set.




First we have to take in to account that the M3/4 are based on the regular street car (huge handicap from dynamic standpoint), and that they are considerably heavier which will most definitely negate the power gap (they have on average almost the same power to weight ratio).
So, to say that M3/4 is making its time just based on power is wrong, and the fact that the BMW is considerably faster on the track than its rivals with the same amount of power (Gulia, C63S etc.) is just showing that they have made a great handling car!
Also, the M4XDrive was faster on Monticello Motor Club North Course than the Cadillac CT5-V Blackwing that has significantly better power to weight ratio.

At the moment, in my opinion there is not better value for the money than the M4, with almost Carrera S performance level on the track, and the CS model will only elevate that even higher!

I don't disagree that the M3 or M4 are incredible value - they are. BMW IMO definitely makes the best sports sedans. Not a huge fan of the Panamera despite how capable they are and also great to drive.
As far as proof, the fact that the M3 weights 3800-3900 lbs and traps 124-125 mph is all the proof you need. The car is making 550+ hp.
You mention that the M4 is less than a second off the Carrera S, which is correct, however, you are not taking into account that the M4 was on Cup 2 tires whereas the Carrera S was on a performance summer tire. Cup tires are worth 5-7 seconds on the Ring so really it was something like 6-8 seconds slower when on equal tires, and that is a lot of time by any measure. The Carrera S was 0.6 seconds faster than the M4 xdrive on Hockenheim too. Even the last gen 991.2 Carrera S on summer tires was faster than the M4 GTS which not only more powerful, but set up for track (it's BMWs GT3 competitor afterall) and had cup tires but was still slower. Even the 991.2 GTS ran low 7:2X on Cups with only 440 hp. I prefer watching head to head but as far as what we've got the 911 still shows why it punches way above its hp rating. To add, just look at what Porsche did with the Cayenne GT...it's nearly as fast as the M4 GTS. Talk about remarkable.
These are all fantastic vehicles that offer performance differently.

[PeregrineFalcon]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

As far as proof, the fact that the M3 weights 3800-3900 lbs and traps 124-125 mph is all the proof you need. The car is making 550+ hp.

I'm sure the same thing can be said for the Carrera S engine.

You mention that the M4 is less than a second off the Carrera S, which is correct, however, you are not taking into account that the M4 was on Cup 2 tires whereas the Carrera S was on a performance summer tire. Cup tires are worth 5-7 seconds on the Ring so really it was something like 6-8 seconds slower when on equal tires, and that is a lot of time by any measure.

True for the Cup 2 tiers, but the time with the PS4S was 7:33,86 so nowhere near to 6-8 seconds difference.

The Carrera S was 0.6 seconds faster than the M4 xdrive on Hockenheim too. I prefer watching head to head but as far as what we've got the 911 still shows why it punches way above its hp rating.

True for the Hockenheim, but if we look at this head to head test on this particular track, the time difference was less than 0,5 sec. for the RWD M4, and since the XDrive is on average 0,5 - 1 sec. faster, we can assume that on this track it would probably be as fast as 911 S.

911 is most definitely punching way above its HP rating, no doubt about it, but considering all other factors so is BMW M historically.
I simply prefer everything about M4 more, especially in this generation, and the fact that it is so close to the 911 S performance wise, but I definitely respect the 911 capabilities!

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by PeregrineFalcon

I'm sure the same thing can be said for the Carrera S engine.



True for the Cup 2 tiers, but the time with the PS4S was 7:33,86 so nowhere near to 6-8 seconds difference.



True for the Hockenheim, but if we look at this head to head test on this particular track, the time difference was less than 0,5 sec. for the RWD M4, and since the XDrive is on average 0,5 - 1 sec. faster, we can assume that on this track it would probably be as fast as 911 S.

911 is most definitely punching way above its HP rating, no doubt about it, but considering all other factors so is BMW M historically.
I simply prefer everything about M4 more, especially in this generation, and the fact that it is so close to the 911 S performance wise, but I definitely respect the 911 capabilities!

Yes, that is what is great about the M3 - it's a good blend of performance while being practical. BMW pulls nearly no punches with these cars and think this gen really nailed the things that I disliked on the F8x gen.
Having owned my fair share of 911s, I don't think they're underrated at all. Porsche is no a sandbagging company when it comes to power whereas BMW are significantly underrated. I definitely like that the M3 provides 911 base or a bit more performance because it's a great car when you need to fit people. When I want to drive a pinpoint weapon and sounds and feels more 'race car', my GT4 is hard to beat.

I don't agree with you re: M4 Xdrive since there was already a test for it (below) and the 992S was .6 seconds faster as I mentioned previously.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...tail&FORM=VIRE

M4XC did 1:53.9 and doubt it will suddenly shave off more than a half a second in another test especially when conditions there were very good.

The M4 time on the PS4S was def better but the 911 time was on crap Pirelli tires so id imagine the 911 would also be faster on PS4S since those tires are so great.

End of the day, I am glad the M3 is offered because the prices of many 911s are starting to touch areas where I cant justify. 200K for a C4S or C2S with Aerokit with the ADMs is just nutty.

[adc]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

I don't disagree that you can close the gap with mods (that's always the case with any two cars), but of course the M3 still does it with substantial amount more power and torque. I mean, my G80 M3 RWD/Manual definitely feels like it has 100 more hp and torque than a Carrera S does. Dyno data confirms when a Carrera S makes about 400 to the wheels and an M3 makes 470.

You are talking about acceleration contests, and yes of course the M3 needs more power because it weighs more. Then again, you can load it up with HomeDepot goods, or trunk full of groceries, and 3 nice ladies in the back. There is a reason why it weighs more.

If you compare a similar hp 911 like a GT3 (which still has no torque) or a GTS the 911 still much faster if all variables are static.
I don't know if you're talking about driving events or SCCA events but the former mean little because there are too many volatile variables (skill set, track prep, tires, how much each person is pushing) which make comparison next to impossible.

Not really. SCCA is super divided in classes, it’s impossible to tell just by looking at the results what is happening. As in who participated, in how many races (aka points), and against whom. driver plays the most important role within a class as well.

So similarly, at HPDE you have groups, and I’m talking about the Advanced groups where all people push as much as they are comfortable with. I mean street driven cars that get there on their own power (although many Porsches are trailered just because it’s cooler). I’m telling you that an M3 with minor mods absolutely laps with all kinds of Porsches. GT3/RS may still hold an advantage but it is smaller than you think.

And at twice the price they should.

At the same time I surely feel that my M3 is absolutely tuned and feels more on the realm of maximized for performance. From a suspension standpoint, it feels like it needs less than my 718 GT4 does... I've not taken the G80 to the track yet but I feel like the GT4 needs more in terms of alignment than the GT does. I also think BMW did well in terms of tires this go around - the powerband and grip are incredible! Let's also be honest, the new 911's are no longer true sports cars. They're luxury oriented GT cars first and foremost now. Bigger, heavier, and absolutely primarily made to be daily drivers.

Well so did the M3 - it grew in size, weight, is more comfort oriented and meant to be a daily driver.

Your G will do well at the track, I had the pleasure of running with a very fast fellow in an M4C at PittRace last summer. He was very quick, very good driver, but could only have fun for 3 sessions. The brakes were toast, and the front tires got completely shredded.

So don’t kid yourself, you’ll need the usual: pads, tires and camber plates. I’m not sure if the aftermarket has caught up yet…

[Flying05]

Originally Posted by BIGW0RM

Oh geez.

I've had 4 911's including a 19 GTS and two 992 S since 2017. The 991.2 is dated. The technology is old. Yes it's a great drivers car. But it's old!

The 992 was a nice improvement but you can't see the dash gauges. The infotainment sucked. And both of my 2020 911's were buy backs. Back to back too.

So your statement about drive a Porsche to see why it costs more holds no water to me. I left the brand over lack of quality and crappy infotainment. Truth be told, both my 991.2's were flawless. Just extremely dated in interior and infotainment.

Porsche is a great drivers car. But after spending 4yrs straight in one, I feel the BMW G8x is one hell of a deal and a better car for the money hands down.

And it seems to me that the g8x platform is holding its value just fine vs Porsche.

My 911s was 162k. My m3 was 85k. Both of which are selling higher than msrp even used.

I don't know. But after 4 911's in a row. I left Porsche extremely disappointed. I absolutely love my m3 which replaced my 162k 911.

They ain't ALL that. Been there done that. Yet here I am.

Agree 100%. I had a 2015 991.1s and it did feel extremely dated (interior and tech) especially when the 992 came out. Additionally, I felt the rear of the car was getting this way as well. While I do agree that it's a better Perfomance drivers car and the steering feel is phenomenal, you just don't get much for your money and compared to the G80x, it's hard to justify the extra cost. I can say the factory Bose though kicked the ass of our stock Harmons too. Anyways, My G80 MT is my weekend car and so was my 911, but I wanted to enjoy my fun car with my family as well and that surely was not happening in the Porsche. I might go back someday, but not anytime soon.

[Dave07997S]

My issue with the base 992 is no manual.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Dave07997S

My issue with the base 992 is no manual.

That was my primary issue as well. If the base were configurable with a 7MT, I likely would've gone that route instead.

[TrentMeister]

Originally Posted by SexyRoger

Base 911 vs loaded m3 lol how about a 992 GTS vs m3 is more fair.

Test drove an m4 comp drive today Lol it is like a lower sitting version of my cayenne.

Shifts are slow in the fastest setting on par eith my cayenne , it has no mid range. But seats are nice carbon buckets and it drives very smooth in harshest setting.

I would prefer to spend the extra 60$k on a 911 GTS and keep the value vs spend less on the m3 and lose 70k the day I sign the papers.

When you compare this to my 2018 carrera GTS it is not the same league, species or anything close to in quality.

When you drive a 911 we'll you know why it cost so much.

Lmao @ s58 has no midrange

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

That was my primary issue as well. If the base were configurable with a 7MT, I likely would've gone that route instead.

What Porsche is going to do, I'd imagine, is come to market with Carrera T available in manual. It will be the only base of the 992 range that will have the 7 speed.

[adc]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

What Porsche is going to do, I'd imagine, is come to market with Carrera T available in manual. It will be the only base of the 992 range that will have the 7 speed.

I’ve driven the 991.2 Carrera T and wouldn’t trade my car for a T. Some aspects were fantastic, others not.

The bucket seats were great, the steering had very good linearity across the straight ahead with no load, usually a hallmark of good steering systems. The suspension calibration was very good. The manual gearbox was acceptable. The short path from engine to wheels means less overall play in the system and a more connected feel from your right foot to the action.

But you had to really trash it around to go quickly, and it had way too much grip for the street. At $120k used, I thought “no way”. It wasn’t a performance step up from my car. Just a step up in feel and intangibles, but for double the price.

I would consider the 911 S a step up in performance and would like to experience it. But not at those prices…

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by adc

I’ve driven the 991.2 Carrera T and wouldn’t trade my car for a T. Some aspects were fantastic, others not.

The bucket seats were great, the steering had very good linearity across the straight ahead with no load, usually a hallmark of good steering systems. The suspension calibration was very good. The manual gearbox was acceptable. The short path from engine to wheels means less overall play in the system and a more connected feel from your right foot to the action.

But you had to really trash it around to go quickly, and it had way too much grip for the street. At $120k used, I thought “no way”. It wasn’t a performance step up from my car. Just a step up in feel and intangibles, but for double the price.

I would consider the 911 S a step up in performance and would like to experience it. But not at those prices…

I loved the T from a driving standpoint. Also, if you look at some of the tests, with PDK, it was quite fast on track too so Porsche was able to get a bit more out of it without much in terms of changes. At VIR it ran a 2:53.4. Had it been shod with Cup tires like the M4 GTS it would have been faster than that which again, definitely good company. Certainly packing much more than the relatively modest HP rating would lead one to believe.

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...storical-data/

The Carrera S is definitely a step up, especially since you open up more of the performance oriented options you can't get on a base car but the prices have gotten so far out there. the 992 GTS cars are approaching 200K before any market adjustment. That's just pushing the envelope too much no matter how great the car is...

[adc]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

I loved the T from a driving standpoint. Also, if you look at some of the tests, with PDK, it was quite fast on track too so Porsche was able to get a bit more out of it without much in terms of changes. At VIR it ran a 2:53.4. Had it been shod with Cup tires like the M4 GTS it would have been faster than that which again, definitely good company.

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...storical-data/

My car isn't stock, and my point stands regardless. Why would I pay double for a car that's just as fast as mine? The 911S would be a step *up* in performance in all aspects, save perhaps straightline speed.