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      12-28-2021, 02:56 AM   #23
speedmaster20d
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I have an M2C and have a pre-order down for an M3P (keeping the M2 for fun/track).

So yes, there are, but mostly out of curiosity. The reality is the M3/4 xDrive with the spec I would want is significantly more expensive then a M3P (add to that the cost of fuel). So while I find the videos interesting, they aren't really in the same price bracket anyway. That makes the comparison even more interesting in some respect that the M3P has the performance it does for the price it is.

They warrant comparison because they achieve a similar goal (fast and practical/family car), 'ready' (with changes) to have some fun on track, almost the same price bracket etc. Elon mask even made his statement on how MP3 was better than an M3 (last gen), so comparisons are investable moving forward.

While I would say the M3/M4 is perhaps the objectively better car, the Tesla is a better suited daily driver for me. No doubt others feel the same so like me are intrigued by the comparisons.
I see abut M2 as a track car plus a 4-door car to run your errands, but still not cross shopping M3 vs. Tesla as you say from the price point of view alone....

even here in silicon valley, the center of the tech world the EV infrastructure is not quite developed enough to call them a practical family car day in and day out. Can a stock Tesla do many laps around a serious track to put down a respectable time? I am not an EV expert and don't really follow the latest but I have seen very few at the track and they were all highly modified, even so owners said they would overheat after a couple of laps and times were still not that great...
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      12-28-2021, 05:15 AM   #24
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I have an M2C and have a pre-order down for an M3P (keeping the M2 for fun/track).

So yes, there are, but mostly out of curiosity. The reality is the M3/4 xDrive with the spec I would want is significantly more expensive then a M3P (add to that the cost of fuel). So while I find the videos interesting, they aren't really in the same price bracket anyway. That makes the comparison even more interesting in some respect that the M3P has the performance it does for the price it is.

They warrant comparison because they achieve a similar goal (fast and practical/family car), 'ready' (with changes) to have some fun on track, almost the same price bracket etc. Elon mask even made his statement on how MP3 was better than an M3 (last gen), so comparisons are investable moving forward.

While I would say the M3/M4 is perhaps the objectively better car, the Tesla is a better suited daily driver for me. No doubt others feel the same so like me are intrigued by the comparisons.
I see abut M2 as a track car plus a 4-door car to run your errands, but still not cross shopping M3 vs. Tesla as you say from the price point of view alone....

even here in silicon valley, the center of the tech world the EV infrastructure is not quite developed enough to call them a practical family car day in and day out. Can a stock Tesla do many laps around a serious track to put down a respectable time? I am not an EV expert and don't really follow the latest but I have seen very few at the track and they were all highly modified, even so owners said they would overheat after a couple of laps and times were still not that great...
Yeah I'm not too sure tbh, haven't done much research. I know back in the day EVs we're terrible for track, including Tesla. Since then companies like Tesla have improved battery cooling (the main issue). For me the biggest limitation is needing EV chargers trackside (yet to see any here in the UK).
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      12-28-2021, 05:42 AM   #25
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I see abut M2 as a track car plus a 4-door car to run your errands, but still not cross shopping M3 vs. Tesla as you say from the price point of view alone....

even here in silicon valley, the center of the tech world the EV infrastructure is not quite developed enough to call them a practical family car day in and day out. Can a stock Tesla do many laps around a serious track to put down a respectable time? I am not an EV expert and don't really follow the latest but I have seen very few at the track and they were all highly modified, even so owners said they would overheat after a couple of laps and times were still not that great...
In europe charging infrastructure is very developed and will basically exolode this year. Most manufacturers stopped ice developement. All cars after 2021 with heat pump and track mode can do nurburing laps easy. Many companies here in germany started to develop parts for track. You should check misha charoudin videos.on youtube with track teslas.
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      12-28-2021, 09:01 AM   #26
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I wouldn't consider a Model 3 Perf even if it eventually managed to be faster than an M xDrive car. For all the reasons that have been hashed before (handling, build quality, etc), but also because it's safer to drive a louder car.

People pay attention when they hear a louder car approaching from behind and don't do unexpected lane changes. And often get out of the way too.

Pull up in a Model 3 and you might as well have appeared out of nowhere.
I had my model 3 performance for 1 month before I said "fuck this thing" and put in an order for my AWD M3. You are right, no one really hears you when you pull up which is sketchy. All juice basically dies around 60-70 mph, so the thrill of the car only exists from a standstill. But the sketchiest part of the car is that it is basically run by a tablet which has reliability of a budget Amazon firepad rather than a polished, meticulously tested iPad. When that sucker blacks out, which it has for me several times, you basically have no idea what's going on in your car and you're driving blind. Electric is certainly the future, but Tesla sure as hell ain't there yet.
I agree I'd take the M3 any day, they say electric is the future but only if the consumers buy that crap.
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      12-28-2021, 09:14 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claudiumxg View Post
In europe charging infrastructure is very developed and will basically exolode this year. Most manufacturers stopped ice developement. All cars after 2021 with heat pump and track mode can do nurburing laps easy. Many companies here in germany started to develop parts for track. You should check misha charoudin videos.on youtube with track teslas.
All true. But to be fair, EVs are still not there for the track.

I don’t mean suspension or brake wise, I know components are out there with more being developed but there still isn’t a Tesla I don’t think which can do a 30min fast session (quick driver) in the middle of the summer.

With my M3 at the track, the tires begin to fade before the car does. VIR in the middle of the summer is brutal.

But I’m intrigued. I’m guessing there will soon be a next gen EV (Tesla or whatever, brand agnostic) who can do this dual duty and last on track. Race track owners in the US will rush to install fast chargers once that wave hits and probably that will be the beginning of the end for ICE on track.


There is also that very interesting angle that people tend to buy track cars they see racing on TV. With no major manufacturer having announced any plans to race an EV in non-prototype form, the message they send is very muddled. Race a fire belching monster on Sunday, sell an EV on Monday?
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      12-28-2021, 10:06 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by adc View Post
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Originally Posted by kjx View Post
I wouldn't consider a Model 3 Perf even if it eventually managed to be faster than an M xDrive car. For all the reasons that have been hashed before (handling, build quality, etc), but also because it's safer to drive a louder car.

People pay attention when they hear a louder car approaching from behind and don't do unexpected lane changes. And often get out of the way too.

Pull up in a Model 3 and you might as well have appeared out of nowhere.
Yes, I think everyone on the highway can hear your ASD from a mile away.
Well, in all 'loud' cars I've driven, people cruising along at 55 mph in a 60 where the rest of the traffic does 70 do seem to wake up and move out of the way. If you're holding north of 3000 rpm cruising 'gently' (easily possible in D3 or S3), the car's not quiet on the outside.

I easily know when just a 340i is leaving and entering my neighborhood when I'm 80-100 feet away from it deep inside my home with all windows closed. I only know when a Model 3 Perf is leaving when I'm literally standing in my driveway and I see it or hear the fake whine.

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Originally Posted by NathObeaN View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjx View Post
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Originally Posted by Robert View Post
This is not a problem with EVs, this is you driving recklessnessly on public roads. Take it to a track where people are actually racing you and not taking their kids to school.
Did my dismissal of the Model 3 (and its Perf variant) rub you the wrong way?

By extension of your logic, electric cars shouldn't have that artificial noise at low speeds then because surely pedestrians can't be absent-minded right? It's those reckless electric car owners that need nannies. /s

Noise that catches people's attention and causes them to be alert = good for safety. Even with zero recklessness (on the part of the car generating the noise) in the picture.
I think his point was based on your statement "People pay attention when they hear a louder car approaching from behind and don't do unexpected lane changes. And often get out of the way too."

That just reads to me "I drive like a **** on public roads and scream up behind people but with a loud car they get out of my way". I could be wrong, but there are quite a few people like that on the road that give BMW drivers a bad name. That's what the track is for
This could be a regional thing but there are a ton of oblivious people in the Pacific Northwest who drive below the speed limit in the *passing lane* and hold up traffic. Sometimes two/three of these people find each other and drive side by side in a rolling roadblock.

I find these issues resolve themselves when I'm in a louder car. It's pretty obvious when I drive my X5 in electric mode and get blocked. And then I switch to sport and downshift, and they realize there is someone behind them and move aside.

To be transparent, sometimes I come across the truly driving-challenged and they don't get out of the passing lane like they are *legally required to*. I acknowledge I overtake them on the right at the first opportunity in a lower gear than I need to, accelerating faster than I need to. Often I see them then move aside for all the other people still stuck behind them.
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      12-28-2021, 10:18 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by kjx View Post
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Originally Posted by adc View Post
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Originally Posted by kjx View Post
I wouldn't consider a Model 3 Perf even if it eventually managed to be faster than an M xDrive car. For all the reasons that have been hashed before (handling, build quality, etc), but also because it's safer to drive a louder car.

People pay attention when they hear a louder car approaching from behind and don't do unexpected lane changes. And often get out of the way too.

Pull up in a Model 3 and you might as well have appeared out of nowhere.
Yes, I think everyone on the highway can hear your ASD from a mile away.
Well, in all 'loud' cars I've driven, people cruising along at 55 mph in a 60 where the rest of the traffic does 70 do seem to wake up and move out of the way. If you're holding north of 3000 rpm cruising 'gently' (easily possible in D3 or S3), the car's not quiet on the outside.

I easily know when just a 340i is leaving and entering my neighborhood when I'm 80-100 feet away from it deep inside my home with all windows closed. I only know when a Model 3 Perf is leaving when I'm literally standing in my driveway and I see it or hear the fake whine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NathObeaN View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjx View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert View Post
This is not a problem with EVs, this is you driving recklessnessly on public roads. Take it to a track where people are actually racing you and not taking their kids to school.
Did my dismissal of the Model 3 (and its Perf variant) rub you the wrong way?

By extension of your logic, electric cars shouldn't have that artificial noise at low speeds then because surely pedestrians can't be absent-minded right? It's those reckless electric car owners that need nannies. /s

Noise that catches people's attention and causes them to be alert = good for safety. Even with zero recklessness (on the part of the car generating the noise) in the picture.
I think his point was based on your statement "People pay attention when they hear a louder car approaching from behind and don't do unexpected lane changes. And often get out of the way too."

That just reads to me "I drive like a **** on public roads and scream up behind people but with a loud car they get out of my way". I could be wrong, but there are quite a few people like that on the road that give BMW drivers a bad name. That's what the track is for
This could be a regional thing but there are a ton of oblivious people in the Pacific Northwest who drive below the speed limit in the *passing lane* and hold up traffic. Sometimes two/three of these people find each other and drive side by side in a rolling roadblock.

I find these issues resolve themselves when I'm in a louder car. It's pretty obvious when I drive my X5 in electric mode and get blocked. And then I switch to sport and downshift, and they realize there is someone behind them and move aside.

To be transparent, sometimes I come across the truly driving-challenged and they don't get out of the passing lane like they are *legally required to*. I acknowledge I overtake them on the right at the first opportunity in a lower gear than I need to, accelerating faster than I need to. Often I see them then move aside for all the other people still stuck behind them.
Passing on the right is fully legal. Just do that instead.

I've long since stopped caring about left lane hogs. I just pass on the right and go about my way.

And 50+% of times they do get the hint and move over to other people who are unaware of laws/play it safe.
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      12-28-2021, 12:49 PM   #30
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I'd take the M3P here.
im gonna steer clear of the whole ICE vs electric part of the debate but i still just cant get into the M3P because of that interior. Everything is on that iPad that looks like its just crudely pasted onto the dashboard. the model s interior is miles better.
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      12-28-2021, 12:53 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by claudiumxg View Post
In europe charging infrastructure is very developed and will basically exolode this year. Most manufacturers stopped ice developement. All cars after 2021 with heat pump and track mode can do nurburing laps easy. Many companies here in germany started to develop parts for track. You should check misha charoudin videos.on youtube with track teslas.
very interesting, are you saying in Germany they have as many charging stations as gas pumps even in remote areas?

I was in Switzerland before Covid and EV/charging was still pretty rare sighting from what I saw, maybe 10% at best. Where does all the electricity come form BTW?

In America and Canada distances are much longer, e.g. there is no EV that can make a day trip from SF to SD with AC on cruising at 85mph, you have to plan your trip ahead of time around the very few charging stations and even then you may end up in a fist fight with others over a charging spot.... have to wait hours to get back on the road, ain't gonna happen with the wife and the kids...have had the experience and will never do it again. There was a study that showed the state of CA does not enough electricity if all the cars were to go electric, here many families have multiple large cars so unless they build more nuclear plants or start burring coal again the cost of electricity will go through the roof.

in the suburbs of the US, especially the middle states EV is still pretty rare and a novelty. It will take a long time here.... I think also laws are different, we often see the tightening and then the relaxation of the environmental rules in the US depending on the admisntrations in charge, and also somethings you can never force or regulate in the US because of the rights given in our constitution....time will tell.

sorry for diverging from the thread, I was just surprised if anyone would cross shop and M3 and Tesla, but I don't live in Europe perhaps it makes sense there. BTW I own Tesla too but only in the form of stocks and I love it.
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      12-28-2021, 12:54 PM   #32
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I am curious guys, but do most Tesla buyers even know what an M3 is or care? or did any of the M3 owners really cross shop a Tesla and an M3?

maybe it's just me but I honestly don't see the point of hundreds of 0-60 YouTube clips and the fascination with them on the internet forums. What do we learn from these really besides gifting clicks to the video poster ? I have had 3 M cars and never cared what the 0-60 was....
i cross shopped everything mentioned on the 'would anyone actually cross shop these two things' list haha including the macan GTS. 0-60 is kind of teslas whole game so its quite important that an ICE car is beating it. the instant power is the one advantage electric has in the whole 'is it fun to drive' discussion
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      12-28-2021, 01:12 PM   #33
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i cross shopped everything mentioned on the 'would anyone actually cross shop these two things' list haha including the macan GTS. 0-60 is kind of teslas whole game so its quite important that an ICE car is beating it. the instant power is the one advantage electric has in the whole 'is it fun to drive' discussion
Correct me if I am wrong but I think if you are a 0-60 guy Tesla is still the way to go no matter what. With the M3 you need to engage that launch control and then get it perfectly right to get anywhere near what the youtubbers are showing. If you simply floor the car or do a rolling start it will hardly do mid 4's.

Imagine you pull up at a light next to a tesla, you have 10 seconds to prime your car and launch it, rev'ing it up next to other drivers and pedestrians behind a light will not only raise a few eye brows it might even attract unwanted attention from the cops. will just sound weird as explained in this video. Honestly I don't get the point of launch control beyond an amusing gimmick for making comparison videos. useless on the track, useless on the street.



meanwhile in the Tesla if you just simply floor it you can get pretty consistent 0-60 very close to what you see in the videos drama free.....so I don't get it how an ICE can be better if you care about light-to-light drag racing...
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      12-28-2021, 01:44 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by jkap27 View Post
i cross shopped everything mentioned on the 'would anyone actually cross shop these two things' list haha including the macan GTS. 0-60 is kind of teslas whole game so its quite important that an ICE car is beating it. the instant power is the one advantage electric has in the whole 'is it fun to drive' discussion
Correct me if I am wrong but I think if you are a 0-60 guy Tesla is still the way to go no matter what. With the M3 you need to engage that launch control and then get it perfectly right to get anywhere near what the youtubbers are showing. If you simply floor the car or do a rolling start it will hardly do mid 4's.

Imagine you pull up at a light next to a tesla, you have 10 seconds to prime your car and launch it, rev'ing it up next to other drivers and pedestrians behind a light will not only raise a few eye brows it might even attract unwanted attention from the cops. will just sound weird as explained in this video. Honestly I don't get the point of launch control beyond an amusing gimmick for making comparison videos. useless on the track, useless on the street.



meanwhile in the Tesla if you just simply floor it you can get pretty consistent 0-60 very close to what you see in the videos drama free.....so I don't get it how an ICE can be better if you care about light-to-light drag racing...
I forgot about that video segment. It's so true. I've had an M2 followed by an M2C, almost 5 years of ownership. Between them I think I've used launch control about 5 times… once a year, value for money right there
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      12-28-2021, 01:47 PM   #35
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very interesting, are you saying in Germany they have as many charging stations as gas pumps even in remote areas?

I was in Switzerland before Covid and EV/charging was still pretty rare sighting from what I saw, maybe 10% at best. Where does all the electricity come form BTW?

In America and Canada distances are much longer, e.g. there is no EV that can make a day trip from SF to SD with AC on cruising at 85mph, you have to plan your trip ahead of time around the very few charging stations and even then you may end up in a fist fight with others over a charging spot.... have to wait hours to get back on the road, ain't gonna happen with the wife and the kids...have had the experience and will never do it again. There was a study that showed the state of CA does not enough electricity if all the cars were to go electric, here many families have multiple large cars so unless they build more nuclear plants or start burring coal again the cost of electricity will go through the roof.

in the suburbs of the US, especially the middle states EV is still pretty rare and a novelty. It will take a long time here.... I think also laws are different, we often see the tightening and then the relaxation of the environmental rules in the US depending on the admisntrations in charge, and also somethings you can never force or regulate in the US because of the rights given in our constitution....time will tell.

sorry for diverging from the thread, I was just surprised if anyone would cross shop and M3 and Tesla, but I don't live in Europe perhaps it makes sense there. BTW I own Tesla too but only in the form of stocks and I love it.
Use chargeprice app and check youself how charger distribution map looks like
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      12-28-2021, 02:14 PM   #36
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I'd take the M3P here.
im gonna steer clear of the whole ICE vs electric part of the debate but i still just cant get into the M3P because of that interior. Everything is on that iPad that looks like its just crudely pasted onto the dashboard. the model s interior is miles better.
I did think I'd feel the same (mainly after resign lots of U.K. negative comments on the interior) but when I went to look and try it out for myself I did really like it.

Not for everyone I know and maybe I've just had 'too many' BMWs over time.
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      12-28-2021, 02:33 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by jkap27 View Post
i cross shopped everything mentioned on the 'would anyone actually cross shop these two things' list haha including the macan GTS. 0-60 is kind of teslas whole game so its quite important that an ICE car is beating it. the instant power is the one advantage electric has in the whole 'is it fun to drive' discussion
Correct me if I am wrong but I think if you are a 0-60 guy Tesla is still the way to go no matter what. With the M3 you need to engage that launch control and then get it perfectly right to get anywhere near what the youtubbers are showing. If you simply floor the car or do a rolling start it will hardly do mid 4's.

Imagine you pull up at a light next to a tesla, you have 10 seconds to prime your car and launch it, rev'ing it up next to other drivers and pedestrians behind a light will not only raise a few eye brows it might even attract unwanted attention from the cops. will just sound weird as explained in this video. Honestly I don't get the point of launch control beyond an amusing gimmick for making comparison videos. useless on the track, useless on the street.



meanwhile in the Tesla if you just simply floor it you can get pretty consistent 0-60 very close to what you see in the videos drama free.....so I don't get it how an ICE can be better if you care about light-to-light drag racing...
While I agree launch control shouldn't be used, where are you getting that an M3C would do 4+ seconds without it? I think it's impossible for that to happen. That's M2 territory.

And if you want to use your own argument against yourself, ask when you're going to meet an electric car that's brand new and 100% charged all the time. By the time they go through some charging cycles the battery is already starting to lose its capacity, and if you meet a Model 3 with 50% battery on the road, who says they'll be quicker?
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      12-28-2021, 06:12 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjx View Post
Well, in all 'loud' cars I've driven, people cruising along at 55 mph in a 60 where the rest of the traffic does 70 do seem to wake up and move out of the way. If you're holding north of 3000 rpm cruising 'gently' (easily possible in D3 or S3), the car's not quiet on the outside.

I easily know when just a 340i is leaving and entering my neighborhood when I'm 80-100 feet away from it deep inside my home with all windows closed. I only know when a Model 3 Perf is leaving when I'm literally standing in my driveway and I see it or hear the fake whine.



This could be a regional thing but there are a ton of oblivious people in the Pacific Northwest who drive below the speed limit in the *passing lane* and hold up traffic. Sometimes two/three of these people find each other and drive side by side in a rolling roadblock.

I find these issues resolve themselves when I'm in a louder car. It's pretty obvious when I drive my X5 in electric mode and get blocked. And then I switch to sport and downshift, and they realize there is someone behind them and move aside.

To be transparent, sometimes I come across the truly driving-challenged and they don't get out of the passing lane like they are *legally required to*. I acknowledge I overtake them on the right at the first opportunity in a lower gear than I need to, accelerating faster than I need to. Often I see them then move aside for all the other people still stuck behind them.
No, I've been around too long to get offended. NathObeaN summed up my point better than I did. We share public roads and should practice defensive driving with other drivers of various skills and capacity, and sometimes that means going much slower than we like.

Technically they are suppose to move over but when you create a large speed differential between you and the flow of traffic, you put everyone in danger. Reving the engine, honking, or high beam the other person to get out of your way, on public roads, does sound like a douche, no?
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      12-28-2021, 06:35 PM   #39
Robert
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Originally Posted by speedmaster20d View Post
I see abut M2 as a track car plus a 4-door car to run your errands, but still not cross shopping M3 vs. Tesla as you say from the price point of view alone....

even here in silicon valley, the center of the tech world the EV infrastructure is not quite developed enough to call them a practical family car day in and day out. Can a stock Tesla do many laps around a serious track to put down a respectable time? I am not an EV expert and don't really follow the latest but I have seen very few at the track and they were all highly modified, even so owners said they would overheat after a couple of laps and times were still not that great...

I agree with your point EV doesn't have the durability on track yet. At the same time it's hard to put practicality and putting up serious track time in the same sentence, so let's just separate the two.

The practical side of EV does not come from relying on external infrastructure for daily drive but charging at home. If you have a solar/battery system that's even better because you're energy independent from the grid. The reliance on infrastructure only comes into play on drive greater 200 miles and most people don't do that on daily basis.


I have not seen a gas station or waited in one for three years. I have not waste any time on maintenance at a dealership as well. Is EV perfect? Far from it, I still rent SUVs for road trips but as daily driver it's very convenient and dirt cheap to operate. I also wish Teslas are better engineered for quality than for production efficiency. For driving pleasure I am still on a hunt for GT4 or GT4RS, so I don't have to compromise. They will only go up in value at this point.
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      12-28-2021, 10:40 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claudiumxg View Post
In europe charging infrastructure is very developed and will basically exolode this year. Most manufacturers stopped ice developement. All cars after 2021 with heat pump and track mode can do nurburing laps easy. Many companies here in germany started to develop parts for track. You should check misha charoudin videos.on youtube with track teslas.
very interesting, are you saying in Germany they have as many charging stations as gas pumps even in remote areas?

I was in Switzerland before Covid and EV/charging was still pretty rare sighting from what I saw, maybe 10% at best. Where does all the electricity come form BTW?

In America and Canada distances are much longer, e.g. there is no EV that can make a day trip from SF to SD with AC on cruising at 85mph, you have to plan your trip ahead of time around the very few charging stations and even then you may end up in a fist fight with others over a charging spot.... have to wait hours to get back on the road, ain't gonna happen with the wife and the kids...have had the experience and will never do it again. There was a study that showed the state of CA does not enough electricity if all the cars were to go electric, here many families have multiple large cars so unless they build more nuclear plants or start burring coal again the cost of electricity will go through the roof.

in the suburbs of the US, especially the middle states EV is still pretty rare and a novelty. It will take a long time here.... I think also laws are different, we often see the tightening and then the relaxation of the environmental rules in the US depending on the admisntrations in charge, and also somethings you can never force or regulate in the US because of the rights given in our constitution....time will tell.

sorry for diverging from the thread, I was just surprised if anyone would cross shop and M3 and Tesla, but I don't live in Europe perhaps it makes sense there. BTW I own Tesla too but only in the form of stocks and I love it.
We have done two long road trips with one ICE and one EV in the last two weeks. One was from DC to Nashville and back and another from DC to Charleston and back. We had zero problems finding Tesla Supercharger stations (actually both Google and Apple Maps can find EV charging stations on a route not just Tesla ones). At least in the Eastern US, one can go pretty much anywhere with EV. In our case, EV range with Tesla MY was close to when we needed a break in any case.

The Tesla has a very simple interior, but the ride is quiet and seats are comfortable with a lot of space. I suppose the Model 3 is similar. In any case, I doubt anyone is cross shopping a BMW M with a Tesla Model 3. Here is what cars people gave up for a Model 3

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2...evolution.html
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      12-29-2021, 06:03 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Robert View Post
I agree with your point EV doesn't have the durability on track yet. At the same time it's hard to put practicality and putting up serious track time in the same sentence, so let's just separate the two.

The practical side of EV does not come from relying on external infrastructure for daily drive but charging at home. If you have a solar/battery system that's even better because you're energy independent from the grid. The reliance on infrastructure only comes into play on drive greater 200 miles and most people don't do that on daily basis.

..


I have not seen a gas station or waited in one for three years. I have not waste any time on maintenance at a dealership as well. Is EV perfect? Far from it, I still rent SUVs for road trips but as daily driver it's very convenient and dirt cheap to operate. I also wish Teslas are better engineered for quality than for production efficiency. For driving pleasure I am still on a hunt for GT4 or GT4RS, so I don't have to compromise. They will only go up in value at this point.




Actually there are lots of EV racecars in europe in rally, rallycross.... Opel, Stard , Kreisel...tech is more than developed . ice is basically dead just before burial. China dictates trends ( theyr market is few order of magnitude above all markets) . In US you still have pressure from Oil and legacy manufacturers but they wont be able to compete. I bought Model 3performance instead a 4 door m3 g82( if you check prices in Germany is about half price after goverment grant) , and many friends have done the same. I still got a 2021 X4m, as soon as the lease is over will be replaced by a Berlin made model y performance. So that bloomberg survey is irelevant in most markets, as soon as there will be a even more focused model 3 (rumors are that is around 700hp) even.posche will have problems here), just keep in mind next 2024 M5 will be electric...if they will build a proper m3/m4 electric not the i4 crap i will buy bmw again. At nurburing there are already many superchargers installed as many people track them..lots of upgrade parts for track available
https://youtu.be/RVxLd8Uv4B8
https://youtu.be/ZbOIXB1L4co
https://youtu.be/KimlCIqbw0k
https://youtu.be/I-LI_jeytBI
https://youtu.be/Q2GTJcUKHNk
https://youtu.be/Jr4Gi-j2CfQ
....
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      12-29-2021, 10:17 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claudiumxg View Post
Actually there are lots of EV racecars in europe in rally, rallycross.... Opel, Stard , Kreisel...tech is more than developed . ice is basically dead just before burial. China dictates trends ( theyr market is few order of magnitude above all markets) . In US you still have pressure from Oil and legacy manufacturers but they wont be able to compete. I bought Model 3performance instead a 4 door m3 g82( if you check prices in Germany is about half price after goverment grant) , and many friends have done the same. I still got a 2021 X4m, as soon as the lease is over will be replaced by a Berlin made model y performance. So that bloomberg survey is irelevant in most markets, as soon as there will be a even more focused model 3 (rumors are that is around 700hp) even.posche will have problems here), just keep in mind next 2024 M5 will be electric...if they will build a proper m3/m4 electric not the i4 crap i will buy bmw again. At nurburing there are already many superchargers installed as many people track them..lots of upgrade parts for track available






....
Friend, these are all experimental, or running short layouts, or both. While the modified Teslas are not faster than ICE on track, and can do max 2 Nurburgring laps before melting down.

What you are showing us proves my point, EVs are not there yet. I acknowledge the pace of R&D is high, but based on what I see it will not work with current battery technology which seems to be the limitation.

Again, you haven’t shown anything to contradict this. They’re still in the novelty category, track wise.
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      12-29-2021, 01:46 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert View Post
I agree with your point EV doesn't have the durability on track yet. At the same time it's hard to put practicality and putting up serious track time in the same sentence, so let's just separate the two.

The practical side of EV does not come from relying on external infrastructure for daily drive but charging at home. If you have a solar/battery system that's even better because you're energy independent from the grid. The reliance on infrastructure only comes into play on drive greater 200 miles and most people don't do that on daily basis.


I have not seen a gas station or waited in one for three years. I have not waste any time on maintenance at a dealership as well. Is EV perfect? Far from it, I still rent SUVs for road trips but as daily driver it's very convenient and dirt cheap to operate. I also wish Teslas are better engineered for quality than for production efficiency. For driving pleasure I am still on a hunt for GT4 or GT4RS, so I don't have to compromise. They will only go up in value at this point.
Well, personally I am not going to pay for the lacking infrastructure and I don't use my car for just a 10 mile commute

I do have solar but an average residential solar system isn't strong enough to charge an EV day in and day out year round. My property is lined by tall trees and doesn't get much sun anyway. The power has been out intermittently due to storms recently and on top of that my solar is totally useless now, it has been generating less than 10% past week. Imagine in an emergency in cold weather and a storm, what are you going to do if the battery is out... no thank you, I'll pass I'll go to the pump by my street corner and on be my way in less than a minute.
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      12-29-2021, 02:07 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by FCX5 View Post
We have done two long road trips with one ICE and one EV in the last two weeks. One was from DC to Nashville and back and another from DC to Charleston and back. We had zero problems finding Tesla Supercharger stations (actually both Google and Apple Maps can find EV charging stations on a route not just Tesla ones). At least in the Eastern US, one can go pretty much anywhere with EV. In our case, EV range with Tesla MY was close to when we needed a break in any case.

The Tesla has a very simple interior, but the ride is quiet and seats are comfortable with a lot of space. I suppose the Model 3 is similar. In any case, I doubt anyone is cross shopping a BMW M with a Tesla Model 3. Here is what cars people gave up for a Model 3

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2...evolution.html
try CA, 10x more EV's here and not that many more stations, all full and packed during holidays when people travel,. for me personally until the car can charge under 10 minutes and there is one charging station for each gas station it's non starter.
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Last edited by speedmaster20d; 12-29-2021 at 02:16 PM..
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