[jmg]

Originally Posted by solstice

Yup functional weight aimed at increasing performance is self explanatory.

That's called an acceptable compromise. It's still a compromise. Let's say you add weight by increasing rigidity, but delete your AC and seats to compensate for the weight gain. The lighter car will sill be faster. It's just physics.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by jmg

This goes back to when the G20 arrived. It's simply too big for a 3 series. We knew this would affect the G80 negatively, which is why I was disappointed with the M340i's weight and size increase. So when I say the G80 is too big and too heavy, that goes for the G20 as well.

For me it is a cumulation of disappointments regarding the weight of the G8X and maybe I had set my expectations too high. The expectation started with how the F90 M5 went down in weight compared to the F10 M5 despite increasing in size and the addition of AWD. BMW was strongly marketing their lightweight chassis architecture at the time. When the G20 chassis was released, they boasted how they were able to bring the weight down compared to the F30. That set an expectation for me, thinking "wow that bodes really well for the G8X", a lighter starting chassis plus all the good weight reduction stuff they did to the F8X to make it lighter than the F30, and we might have something very interesting coming our way. Then the G20 ended up being heavier than the F30 and now the G80 ends up being even heavier than the G20.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by jmg

The F80 CS is built upon the limitations of the F80 and therefor F30 chassis. The G80 is built upon the limitations of the G20 chassis. The G20 is bigger than the F30. Unless lighter more expensive weight savings strategies are used, it's going to be heavier simply because there is more car.

AGAIN, they could have upgraded the chassis (stiffness, weight distribution etc) without increasing size, upgraded the engine, brakes etc and have an even better G80.

I'll ask a hypothetical. If the G80, still has the same S58, same power, same 6MT, wheels, brakes, + all the other upgrades that it currently comes in, but was 5 inches shorter, and 200 lbs lighter, is that better or worse than the same car but 5 inches longer but 200lbs heavier? Ok I get it, 5 inches of car isn't 200lbs, BMW probably added some bracing, tech hardware etc... so lets say only 150lbs heavier.

When did BMW make the M car smaller than the standard car? Sure we would all love for the M cars to be purpose built sports cars ground up with optimal dimensions and weight but that’s not how it works. You make common sense arguments about weight on sports cars but turning those into expectations on M cars that have a lot of constraints is setting yourself up for guaranteed disappointment. And as someone mentioned not even Porsche with less constraints build cars primarily targeting super light weight and small footprint. The M3 is a sub $100k car based on a 4K lbs family sedan.

CanAutM3’s fantastic coming P-car is 3650 lbs. will it be a downgrade from his lighter CS? Doubt it. And for us to sit and dissect why it isn’t lighter and how detrimental it is vs the dynamics of a base C2 etc. Is it a worth while discussion if driving it turn out to be the best thing he has done on four wheels?

[AlexFL]

Originally Posted by jmg

The F80 CS is built upon the limitations of the F80 and therefor F30 chassis. The G80 is built upon the limitations of the G20 chassis. The G20 is bigger than the F30. Unless lighter more expensive weight savings strategies are used, it's going to be heavier simply because there is more car.

AGAIN, they could have upgraded the chassis (stiffness, weight distribution etc) without increasing size, upgraded the engine, brakes etc and have an even better G80.

I'll ask a hypothetical. If the G80, still has the same S58, same power, same 6MT, wheels, brakes, + all the other upgrades that it currently comes in, but was 5 inches shorter, and 200 lbs lighter, is that better or worse than the same car but 5 inches longer but 200lbs heavier? Ok I get it, 5 inches of car isn't 200lbs, BMW probably added some bracing, tech hardware etc... so lets say only 150lbs heavier.

BMW wanted to make sure it doesn't directly compete with M2. In fact, M2 CS is exactly the car you are seemingly looking for. M3 is now bigger and more luxurious.

[Pantagathus]

Originally Posted by Dog Face Pony Soldier

Every time I see someone weighing their road car I wonder what someone does with this information. How would the owner's life change if the number on the scale was 300 lbs lighter or heavier?

It would let them know if they really need to try and take a massive dump before going for a drive

[jmg]

Originally Posted by solstice

When did BMW make the M car smaller than the standard car?

Where did I say they had to do that?

Originally Posted by solstice

Sure we would all love for the M cars to be purpose built sports cars ground up with optimal dimensions and weight but that’s not how it works. You make common sense arguments about weight on sports cars but turning those into expectations on M cars that have a lot of constraints is setting yourself up for guaranteed disappointment. And as someone mentioned not even Porsche with less constraints build cars primarily targeting super light weight and small footprint. The M3 is a sub $100k car based on a 4K lbs family sedan.

You make the same point I was trying to make with that last sentence. Again, if they had not made the G20 so big and heavy, then the G80 wouldn't be so big and heavy.

Originally Posted by solstice

CanAutM3’s fantastic coming P-car is 3650 lbs. will it be a downgrade from his lighter CS? Doubt it. And for us to sit and dissect why it isn’t lighter and how detrimental it is vs the dynamics of a base C2 etc. Is it a worth while discussion if driving it turn out to be the best thing he has done on four wheels?

That's about what the M3/4 CS weighs but with the engine in the rear and if he is still getting the Turbo, it's AWD. Dynamically, it's going to handle much different than a front engine RWD, or front engine AWD. I don't see how this applies to the G80 discussion. Can you elaborate?


And you didn't answer my question.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by AlexFL

BMW wanted to make sure it doesn't directly compete with M2. In fact, M2 CS is exactly the car you are seemingly looking for. M3 is now bigger and more luxurious.

Agreed, but the M2 is a coupe only. M3's are 4 door sedans.

[Hotflare]

I love how people are buying into this car wanting it to be a full blown race car

Its not..m its a high performance sedan...

Want a racecar? Buy an M2C or even a porche with the money. This is designed to be an all rounder that you can track day in and take it to work the next. Sooner people see that, the sooner we can all focus om something else to hate. Lol...

[solstice]

Originally Posted by jmg

I don't see how this applies to the G80 discussion. Can you elaborate?

It applies as to the weight anxiety and negative sentiment to weight increase of a car of similar weight. Why obsess about it to the level of deciding against the car before you have driven it? And why ignore reports that the car feel great, both lighter and faster than the predecessor and continue the obsessing? We aren’t doing it about CanAutM3’s Porsche when it comes up. He isn’t concerned about it enough to stop a $160k purchase why is the G8X such a target for following the same trend of other brands and since the beginning of M with ever larger cars?

If the car drives like crap it’s open season to look for reasons but if it’s fantastic, why do it?

[frankiebones]

Originally Posted by solstice

why is the G8X such a target?

The grilles.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by frankiebones

The grilles.

Ah, of course. I forgot

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by Hotflare

Want a racecar? Buy an M2C

[jkap27]

Originally Posted by solstice

It applies as to the weight anxiety and negative sentiment to weight increase of a car of similar weight. Why obsess about it to the level of deciding against the car before you have driven it? And why ignore reports that the car feel great, both lighter and faster than the predecessor and continue the obsessing? We aren’t doing it about CanAutM3’s Porsche when it comes up. He isn’t concerned about it enough to stop a $160k purchase why is the G8X such a target for following the same trend of other brands and since the beginning of M with ever larger cars?

If the car drives like crap it’s open season to look for reasons but if it’s fantastic, why do it?

It would be an interesting thought experiment if they didnt tell you the weight figures and you had to guess based on the test drive lol I bet some of this is psychological. My 240i isnt a light car by any means but it sure feels like it is. Im sure M2C owners would say the same despite the car gaining 150-200 pounds over the previous gen. which is about how much the g80 has gained despite what youve read from the negative nancys haha theyre weighing the cars differently its apples and oranges.

[Scorp!on]

RugbyBro

Had a good laugh, thanks

Just one thing from my side regarding the weight:
I for myself, before entering this board, have never EVER had a thought about the weight of the car. The only thing that mattered to me if it is awesome in driving. Knowing BMW I knew they wouldn't disappoint me, so the purchase was pretty easy.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by solstice

It applies as to the weight anxiety and negative sentiment to weight increase of a car of similar weight. Why obsess about it to the level of deciding against the car before you have driven it? And why ignore reports that the car feel great, both lighter and faster than the predecessor and continue the obsessing? We aren’t doing it about CanAutM3’s Porsche when it comes up. He isn’t concerned about it enough to stop a $160k purchase why is the G8X such a target for following the same trend of other brands and since the beginning of M with ever larger cars?

If the car drives like crap it’s open season to look for reasons but if it’s fantastic, why do it?

I'd say this kind of hits it right on for most people, how they drive, and what they're capable of. The M3/4 I was pretty spot on saying it would be 3900 lbs in RWD form and 4100+ in AWD (which I don't know if we've gotten a result there quite yet), but does it drive well? I mean, a Panamera turbo is 4500 lbs and drives better than pretty much any sedan out there and runs a faster N'Ring lap than many recent supercars. The weight at that point is kind of moot, no?

[jkap27]

Originally Posted by frankiebones

The grilles.

haha i think its a target cuz people want to continue loving their F8X which is why you have been a revelation People can like their current car more without hating the new one that is definitely an option. If I had a dollar for every time someone said my M3 is now an instant classic cuz the next gen one is awful im sure my G80 would be free

[jkap27]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

I'd say this kind of hits it right on for most people, how they drive, and what they're capable of. The M3/4 I was pretty spot on saying it would be 3900 lbs in RWD form and 4100+ in AWD (which I don't know if we've gotten a result there quite yet), but does it drive well? I mean, a Panamera turbo is 4500 lbs and drives better than pretty much any sedan out there and runs a faster N'Ring lap than many recent supercars. The weight at that point is kind of moot, no?

Also the taycan probaby weighs about the same as an african forest elephant and drives like a 911 apparently. full disclosure i had to google what the lightest elephant is haha

[jmg]

Originally Posted by solstice

It applies as to the weight anxiety and negative sentiment to weight increase of a car of similar weight. Why obsess about it to the level of deciding against the car before you have driven it? And why ignore reports that the car feel great, both lighter and faster than the predecessor and continue the obsessing? We aren’t doing it about CanAutM3’s Porsche when it comes up. He isn’t concerned about it enough to stop a $160k purchase why is the G8X such a target for following the same trend of other brands and since the beginning of M with ever larger cars?

I literally just told you, the Porsche is a rear engine AWD car and weighs the SAME as the M4 CS he has. The weight of the Porsche is over the rear axle and turn in is going to be totally different than a front engine RWD car. Power out of corners is going to be totally different too, since all the weight is in the rear for maximum grip. Additionally, the AWD G80 is going to be 4k lbs, how is that even close to being comparable to a 992TT which is LIGHTER, MORE POWERFUL, MORE TORQUE, AD REAR ENGINE. It's almost like you want to ignore physics because you really really want to just love the G80. I get it, you love it, it's subjective, but I don't. You can still love it even though I don't.

Originally Posted by solstice

If the car drives like crap it’s open season to look for reasons but if it’s fantastic, why do it?

For the 4th time, everything else being equal, if it were merely a couple hundred pounds lighter, it would drive even better. I'm disappointed that the size and thus the weight grew.

AGAIN, if it were lighter, it would drive even better.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

I'd say this kind of hits it right on for most people, how they drive, and what they're capable of. The M3/4 I was pretty spot on saying it would be 3900 lbs in RWD form and 4100+ in AWD (which I don't know if we've gotten a result there quite yet), but does it drive well? I mean, a Panamera turbo is 4500 lbs and drives better than pretty much any sedan out there and runs a faster N'Ring lap than many recent supercars. The weight at that point is kind of moot, no?

Some of us got M3/4s to track. The Ring favors high horsepower cars and not all tracks are the same. All things being equal (suspension, power, weight distribution, braking etc) lighter is generally better. I really feel like I'm just repeating myself over and over only to be ignored because none of that matters to a lot of people, and I totally get it. If you're just going to stoplight race and park your car at the next cars and coffee it's fine. The car is going to be great for most people. However, other perspectives are no less relevant. I see many M3/4s at the track. These are tuned and developed to be trackable, and hence the point of view of those who actually track it are valid. The fact that these M3/4s are trackable cars is a major contributor to their status as enthusiast cars. To ignore all that kind of goes against the spirit of the car. Maybe that's changing and now it's just a luxury car on steroids, and that's fine too, but don't expect everyone to be okay with it. You have to take the criticisms with the praise otherwise you're just living in an echo chamber where truth takes the back seat to confirmation bias.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by jmg

Some of us got M3/4s to track. The Ring favors high horsepower cars and not all tracks are the same. All things being equal (suspension, power, weight distribution, braking etc) lighter is generally better. I really feel like I'm just repeating myself over and over only to be ignored because none of that matters to a lot of people, and I totally get it. If you're just going to stoplight race and park your car at the next cars and coffee it's fine. The car is going to be great for most people. However, other perspectives are no less relevant. I see many M3/4s at the track. These are tuned and developed to be trackable, and hence the point of view of those who actually track it are valid. The fact that these M3/4s are trackable cars is a major contributor to their status as enthusiast cars. To ignore all that kind of goes against the spirit of the car. Maybe that's changing and now it's just a luxury car on steroids, and that's fine too, but don't expect everyone to be okay with it. You have to take the criticisms with the praise otherwise you're just living in an echo chamber where truth takes the back seat to confirmation bias.

Well it’s your loss if you’re stuck in that thought and prefer to not wait for track reviews. Many of us have moved on from the isolated number obsession and my guess is that more will follow as more become known of the capabilities and also there really is no choice if you intend to keep up with the times. Yesterday is yesterday and it ain’t coming back. I leave it to you to keep the fire burning in this thread.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by jkap27

haha i think its a target cuz people want to continue loving their F8X which is why you have been a revelation People can like their current car more without hating the new one that is definitely an option. If I had a dollar for every time someone said my M3 is now an instant classic cuz the next gen one is awful im sure my G80 would be free

Saying the F80 is an instant classic is a lie to make someone feel better about their outdated car. To me a car is disposable. It's a tool. Enjoy it while it lasts, but it's going to be outdated with the next model. I wanted the G80 to be a great car because that would have given me a better, updated, faster version of my car. Alas that didn't happen, at least not for me like it does for other people. Let's not get too self-righteous though, I think the whole idea that "people want to continue loving their F8X" is a cop out so that G80 fans can feel better about their new car. I get that too... your needs are different.

The E92 owners said the same thing about the F80, now the F80 guys are saying it about the E92. Does it make it less valid? Validity is dependent upon the individual's needs. My needs are different. I can get a G80 tomorrow if I wanted to, but I choose not to. Is it because I have blind love for my F80? No way. It's getting replaced no matter what. Time to move on, it's unfortunate that I can't put the G80 on my list because it's now too big and too heavy for what I want. I think the G80 will still be one of the most exciting sports sedans on the road, I just won't be owning one for track use. Maybe as a daily.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by solstice

Well it’s your loss if you’re stuck in that thought and prefer to not wait for track reviews. Many of us have moved on from the isolated number obsession and my guess is that more will follow as more become known of the capabilities and also there really is no choice if you intend to keep up with the times. Yesterday is yesterday and it ain’t coming back. I leave it to you to keep the fire burning in this thread.

The title of this thread is "Weight of G80 M3 Competition w/ auto and standard seats = 3767 lbs". So I'm here to talk about weight. Track times are a different story. Again, you aren't willing to understand that a lighter G80 is going to perform better than a heavier G80 all other things being equal. I'm not sure why you want to ignore physics.

I reserve the right to change my mind once more track times are set. I also still have a free M School voucher so hopefully I'll be able to track a G80 on BMW's dime and tires.

For now though, it's too heavy and my goal with my next weekend/track toy was to go lighter.

One advantage I have is that I didn't order a G80 and my choices are open to other cars and brands, so I don't HAVE TO love the G80 to justify my decision. I've had multiple M cars, so I don't have to get this one. The M2 is still a consideration, but so is a Zupra, GT4, F82, E46, 718 GTS, etc... At least I can be honest to myself.