[DO444]

Originally Posted by Vic55

Yeah Tourings dont sell for sticker unless the buyer has a pre order or a ginormous dealer relationship...

The GT3 market values have dissipated but its still well over sticker ADM wise.

Manheim is still pushing 241k average sales on non tourings (2022 my)—- tourings are even more. So this is pre lending value, pre wholesale, pre recon, pre fee, etc ... The P car GT market remains strong.

That’s insane.
I had no idea.
Just when the 911 became affordable to me it then became unaffordable. I guess that’s the way it’s supposed to be ha ha.

[vbb]

Originally Posted by DO444

That’s insane.
Just when the 911 became affordable to me it then became unaffordable.

Ain't that the truth! I've been lucky to own a couple of 911s, but once I hit the point where I was ready to spend a little more to get exactly what I wanted, the prices became out of reach with MSRPs going up and ADMs placed on top.

[JY01]

New 992 prices with markup are approaching used supercar prices. I was thinking about ordering a 992 to replace my G82, but even the base is a $150k car before markup. That’s like used R8 territory which I would take over any 992 short of a GT car. I could go used but there’s so many different options, some of which I consider must-haves, that I would have to compromise on the spec.

[HNSKP]

I don’t see myself going back to Porsche unless 997.1 gt3s fall under $100k again. I think that ship has sailed.

[SE7EN335]

Originally Posted by JY01

New 992 prices with markup are approaching used supercar prices. I was thinking about ordering a 992 to replace my G82, but even the base is a $150k car before markup. That’s like used R8 territory which I would take over any 992 short of a GT car. I could go used but there’s so many different options, some of which I consider must-haves, that I would have to compromise on the spec.

Here in Australia, our 992 GT3s are going for at least 500K AUD which is 334K USD, still have about 20% mark up. The lowest priced second hand 2020 R8 on sale right now is 338K AUD which is 226K USD. If the 992 GT3 came down in price to be as low as a used 2020 R8 here in Australia, I would take the 992 GT3 in less than a heartbeat. I have driven both (a 2017 Audi R8 for comparison) and the 992 GT3's handling and finesse are light years better than the R8.

[ccase04]

My history of recent cars goes like this:
17 Camaro 1LE (daily drive 6MT) Drove this thing all over the place. put 40k miles on it and got my money out of it. I don't think there is a better sports car for the performance these have for sub 45k.
981 GT4 ( LWBs ) Went from the Camaro to the GT4. it was eye-opening once I got into this car. Now I understood why car journalists say they are the best-handling cars made. These cars with cup 2s are on rails. At this time I had this as a weekend car and I loved it. Now here is where I started having issues. 1) I got mileage anxiety. I was so nervous about not going over 10k miles I didn't want to drive it. Also, I do a ton of hour-long highway driving over the weekends and it driving in a straight line at 75MPH blows. Then add the LWBs and you're ready to off yourself after 30min. I am 5 11 and weigh about 190lbs and I couldn't stand the seats. yes, they look dope and are cool when you're driving the car hard on b roads anything other than that forget it...
chapter3: M3Xdrive is ordered. the front end grew on me and I'm excited to have a more well-rounded car. I don't have the budget for a 911 and I want to room for golf clubs and the convenience the M3 provides alongside the performance. im build week 24 and cant wait for it to come in. Side not I am nervous I'm going to get bored but we will find out.

[Cryptic7]

Originally Posted by ccase04

I don't have the budget for a 911 and I want to room for golf clubs and the convenience the M3 provides alongside the performance. im build week 24 and cant wait for it to come in. Side not I am nervous I'm going to get bored but we will find out.

Man do I feel this in my bones. I almost bought an M3 in 2021 but ended up in a Boxster instead. Man this car is so great to drive when I am able to drive it hard, but it sucks for long highway drives, and that's when I can even get in it at all since my daughter can't ride along in the front seats yet. I figured this would be a forever car for me since the Boxster/Cayman are my literal dream car outside of maybe a 911 targa that I can't afford, but I'm already considering selling and getting on a wait for an individual paint G80. Feels like a huge waste though.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Cryptic7

Man do I feel this in my bones. I almost bought an M3 in 2021 but ended up in a Boxster instead. Man this car is so great to drive when I am able to drive it hard, but it sucks for long highway drives, and that's when I can even get in it at all since my daughter can't ride along in the front seats yet. I figured this would be a forever car for me since the Boxster/Cayman are my literal dream car outside of maybe a 911 targa that I can't afford, but I'm already considering selling and getting on a wait for an individual paint G80. Feels like a huge waste though.

This is the reality for many who aspire to Porsche ownership. It comes with a lot of sacrifices. Sometimes it’s just not livable depending on your life circumstances.

[bri1042]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

This is the reality for many who aspire to Porsche ownership. It comes with a lot of sacrifices. Sometimes it’s just not livable depending on your life circumstances.

And the point that a lot of journalists continue to miss. Jason Cammisa has 9 cars and if I recall, most of them are not kept at his house. Only his e-Golf and his Lotus were built in this century.

Totally anecdotal:

A friend of mine left yesterday from Portland on a road trip to Disneyland. He and his wife love road trips; thankfully since his youngest child (6 years old) flips out in air planes (literal shrieks of terror that started as soon as the doors closed and got them kicked off a plane last year). They also drive to Idaho to visit family for holidays.

None of Jason's 9 cars are good for this trip. His older cars, even if they don't have mechanical issues along the way, are out due to the safety improvements in modern cars. He isn't one to risk his kids in an e30 if they get hit by an SUV. The eGolf has a max range of 125 miles. That's a lot of sitting and charging for a trip to Boise or Los Angeles.

They're driving his wife's Hyundai CUV, which has taken them everywhere for the last few years since they got it. For their needs, it is a vastly superior car to everything that Jason owns. I've driven it. It's a horrid thing and yet still, for them, better than Jason's Lotus. Or his Mercedes that was built the same year my friend was born. Or my M3 since they've put so many miles on it in such a short time (around 70k, I think? On a 2019?).

A Porsche is a Porsche but it can be a worse car than a Hyundai given normal world/normal life circumstances.

[Needsdecaf]

The ironic thing is that a Porsche CAN be a good daily if you're willing to make a few small sacrifices. They really are very usable cars compared to other high performance cars. And their reliability is second to none when compared to any exotic. Having said that....

...they are still small sports cars (the Panamera and SUV's excluded). And with that comes the compromises of a sports car. Small, not much luggage space, no flexibility in luggage space, loud, low, etc.

I've owned 2 911's and 2 Cayennes. Currently own the old and new Cayennes and a 997.2 Turbo. Some of you may have seen This Thread about my current situation. I'm 99.9% planning on selling the 997 Turbo and getting a G80.

It's a little bit dumb, really. The Turbo has 33,500 miles and likely I could drive it to 60k and not lose much value at all. It's the last of the old school 911's with the engine completely behind the rear axle, hydraulic steering, thin door cards, etc. The last one built by Porsche before the VAG influence. But for my use case, it's just kind of a PITA. Total first world problems, but with kids, running errands, going to lunch at work, etc. it's a sacrifice to have a 2 seater. Yesterday I wanted to bring a small box home from my dad's apartment, and I ended up having to wedge it in the back and barely actually got it in the car with the passenger seat all the way forward and tilted to get it in. I wouldn't have been able to have a passenger. And while we do still have 2 Cayennes, that means planning my trips which I've been doing since December and is kind of a pain.

If I lived in an area with an abundance of good roads and smooth-ish highways I could make it work. But around here the road noise is awful. Steady cruise on the highway is 80-82 dB which doesn't sound like a lot but it's loud. Very loud. If I take it to the hill country for 1/2 a day when I get back my tinnitus is ringing and I have trouble understanding people speaking. It's just the nature of a sports car. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Also, Porsche is getting stupid with their $$. Our 2014 Cayenne was leagues better than an X5 for about 15% more money. It was a no brainer, IMO. Our 2023 was 50% more than a fully loaded X5 50e and, IMO, the gap between the two is considerably lower. And the 911 pricing is just bonkers. $170 MSRP on a GTS? Not long ago that was a nice 991.2 GT3. Turbo S's are going for mid to high $200k mark on the used market. I mean, come on.

But having said that, Porsche still is THE driver's car. I was reminded of that when I finally made it to the Ring two weeks ago. I'd say 60-70% of the cars were either a Porsche or a BMW. It's nuts. Go on racetracker.de (the photo site where you can buy pics of the car running during TF) and filter for BMW or Porsche. SO MANY CARS. They just work. They have the DNA. BMW still does, although their mainstream products are really losing touch. Porsche still definitely does but it's very $$$. But you feel it when you drive them, even the SUV's. And a Taycan is still sportier than any BMW sedan bar the M cars despite being electric. You can feel the secret sauce they put in their cars the moment you drive them.

I'm glad I've had 911's for 6 years and will be sad to be giving mine up to a certain extent. But we'll still have the Cayenne and I know plenty of Porsche buddies that will let me scratch the itch when I need to.

Funnily enough, when I bought my first 911 in 2016, I was shopping for a daily for myself. I drove the hell out of the F80, C63 and others. The F80 ALMOST made the cut. I mean, I had the whole thing planned...San Marino Blue, Euro Delivery, the whole 9 yards. But I just could NOT fall in love with that car. It just rode too stiff and couldn't put the power down. I got the 911 while I still had a few months left on my Lexus lease and quickly figured out before I got rid of it that the 911 was NOT going to work as a daily. So when the Lexus lease was up, I leased a GTI as a daily. Right away I knew the 911 was too compromised for MY lifestyle daily.

Edit...I will also say that the "Porsche scene" is highly dependent on where you are and how much time you spend IRL vs. the forums. I'm lucky to have an absolutely fantastic PCA chapter where I live in Houston. There is a GTG / Cars and Coffee every week, many weeks there are two locations since the city is so large. And no, those aren't lame, because we stand around and greet each other as friends and spend way more time talking about life than the cars. Most of the people don't have a collection, or if they do, it's not a ritzy one. There are way more Boxsters than RS's and after a while you've already seen 80% of the cars. Plus, we ALL drive. There are multiple drive events each month, both sanctioned and unsanctioned. Autocross, track events, dinners, etc. It's a fantastic community. Truth be told one of the biggest regrets I'll have selling the 911 is having to show up to the GTG's in the Cayenne, lol. But during the drives I'll take the M3 and more than keep up.

If you spend too much time on Rennlist, there are way too many threads on PTS and stitching colors. You'd be fooled into thinking that's what the Porsche scene has become. But at it's heart, there are still drivers there. And maybe less so now, they've gotten off the forums or use them for DIY and are too busy driving there cars. Believe me I see a lot of Porsche sports cars being driven, really driven, where I live.

[Cryptic7]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

But you feel it when you drive them, even the SUV's.

I've been in a loaner Macan and I really didn't feel it. Marginally better than an X3 maybe, but way less practical which is the whole reason to buy a crossover. And WAY more money, and no inline-6 option. Yeah it cornered pretty flat for a big SUV but really it didn't feel like I was driving any kind of sports car, not even comparable to a sports sedan. And I'm not talking about power. You sit way up high, the whole experience is pretty numb, and you can really feel the weight, way more than the G80 IME.

I honestly don't know why you'd buy a Porsche SUV when the BMW equiv is 90% as good for half the price. This is different from BMW sport sedans when comparing to Porsche sports cars, where the driving difference is truly noticable.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by Cryptic7

I've been in a loaner Macan and I really didn't feel it. Marginally better than an X3 maybe, but way less practical which is the whole reason to buy a crossover. And WAY more money, and no inline-6 option. Yeah it cornered pretty flat for a big SUV but really it didn't feel like I was driving any kind of sports car, not even comparable to a sports sedan. And I'm not talking about power. You sit way up high, the whole experience is pretty numb, and you can really feel the weight, way more than the G80 IME.

I honestly don't know why you'd buy a Porsche SUV when the BMW equiv is 90% as good for half the price. This is different from BMW sport sedans when comparing to Porsche sports cars, where the driving difference is truly noticable.

Everyone makes their own choices. My wife, who is a skinflint, not brand conscious and not much of a driving enthusiast, said after driving the X5 "I want another Cayenne".

Having said that, the new X5 is very nice, and the difference is more subtle than before. But it's still there. A loaner Macan base is the worst example to drive. It's literally based on the first generation Q5. Drive a newer Macan GTS and compare that to an X3, then let me know. I agree with you on the cargo space though.

[HiFi]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

Everyone makes their own choices. My wife, who is a skinflint, not brand conscious and not much of a driving enthusiast, said after driving the X5 "I want another Cayenne".

Having said that, the new X5 is very nice, and the difference is more subtle than before. But it's still there. A loaner Macan base is the worst example to drive. It's literally based on the first generation Q5. Drive a newer Macan GTS and compare that to an X3, then let me know. I agree with you on the cargo space though.

Yep, was going to say that - a base macan barely compares with an X3 30i, a macan GTS is a different story. I cross shopped a Macan GTS and an X4M , and the GTS is leagues above in ride quality, steering feel, engine sound. While this might sound like confirmation bias, i also own a G80 M3 which i love, but yeah, mid sized SUVs, Macan GTS is where it was at for me.

[Sedan_Clan]

I spent a week in a Macan loaner when my 992 was at the dealership. It was definitely a “whatever” experience for me when compared to the equivalent/comparable BMW X-SAV.

[Ankarah]

Originally Posted by Ginster6

any other M3 owner here also have porsche or sold their porsche to g80 M3.

Is it really that much better ?

I daily 2020 Panamera 4S, so it may not be the same experience as the 911, but to me personally, the M4CX I test drove felt much more responsive and fast.

Driving Porsche cars always feel more like a 'work' I have to perform, rather than a pleasurable experience.

[Juanero]

A 996 turbo x50 was my first dip into Porsches. I had for several years and daily'd a manual flat 6 Cayman S until I decided that the perfect car would be a 911 with a NA engine. So I shed both and got a gt3. budget ballooned up to get a 991.2 but I am done. I don't want another 911. Not because this is the best, but it is because this is the most car I can wring out. The 992 gt3 is faster in every way, but--and I didn't realize I would ever day this--I'm good with what I have.

The m3 is my daily now, and it just chews up the highway so well, it's just so easy to drive [fast]. I agree that the steering and throttle are just so easy, it doesn't fatigue you. Getting back into the porsches, the same things require you to be more deliberate.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by Juanero

A 996 turbo x50 was my first dip into Porsches. I had for several years and daily'd a manual flat 6 Cayman S until I decided that the perfect car would be a 911 with a NA engine. So I shed both and got a gt3. budget ballooned up to get a 991.2 but I am done. I don't want another 911. Not because this is the best, but it is because this is the most car I can wring out. The 992 gt3 is faster in every way, but--and I didn't realize I would ever day this--I'm good with what I have.

The m3 is my daily now, and it just chews up the highway so well, it's just so easy to drive [fast]. I agree that the steering and throttle are just so easy, it doesn't fatigue you. Getting back into the porsches, the same things require you to be more deliberate.

Porsche deliberately, on the sports cars, takes a lot of slop out of the cars. My 997 has very little sound deadening, and even being a Turbo S, and even with the DSC shock controller, has quite a flinty ride. The steering is heavy, but doesn't reward you with as much feel as a 997 RWD does, sadly. The early 991.1's skewed heavily away from the original Porsche feel. They are set up to be a lot more comfort oriented and the EPS is very numb. With the 991.1 GTS's and into the GT3's they finally started to understand the EPS tuning and with the 991.2 it's back.

The GT3....people don't realize how quickly the sheer sensory input starts to fatigue you. It's by no means a difficult car to drive, but it does not make a lot of concessions to civility. It is VERY loud, those Cup 2's behind you with no rear seats and reduced sound deadening is quite loud, the aggressive steering / alignment is always tugging at your arms, and the powertrain when cold is quite noisy, especially the diff. It's a raw car, which people shouldn't be surprised by but somehow are.

But what a machine. If you have the PDK, those WOT shifts at redline are just.....

[hinckley]

I drove 911s for 25 years. They're absolute perfection in my eyes. Performance, handling, luxury and dependable DDs. Did I mention performance and handling? If money was no consideration, I'd buy a 911 over a Ferrari or any other "exotic" every time. And up until the last couple of years, I thought they were a bargain, relative to those other cars.

But when I was ready to move on from my 991 GTS Cab a year ago, I was looking at paying a $25k ADM for the privilege of getting on an 18-month wait list. The ADMs have mostly disappeared, but the pricing has gone thru the roof. My last GTS stickered at $154k. A similarly equipped MY23 is over $200k and Porsche has already announced a 7 - 10% increase for MY24s. And that's just nose-bleed territory for me.

I traded my GTS for an M8 vert a year ago. I knew it would be a compromise, but I was unprepared for the loss of handling, which I attribute almost entirely to weight (1300 additional pounds!). The M8 is a BEAST, but it's white knuckle handling compared to the 911. So I traded the M8 for a M4 vert a week ago. Another compromise (compared to the 911) but a MUCH more satisfying driver for me. I'll miss the very raw power of the 8, but the M4 is simply a better 911 replacement. And costing less than half of a new GTS doesn't hurt!

[PLF69]

Originally Posted by hinckley

I drove 911s for 25 years. They're absolute perfection in my eyes. Performance, handling, luxury and dependable DDs. Did I mention performance and handling? If money was no consideration, I'd buy a 911 over a Ferrari or any other "exotic" every time. And up until the last couple of years, I thought they were a bargain, relative to those other cars.

But when I was ready to move on from my 991 GTS Cab a year ago, I was looking at paying a $25k ADM for the privilege of getting on an 18-month wait list. The ADMs have mostly disappeared, but the pricing has gone thru the roof. My last GTS stickered at $154k. A similarly equipped MY23 is over $200k and Porsche has already announced a 7 - 10% increase for MY24s. And that's just nose-bleed territory for me.

I traded my GTS for an M8 vert a year ago. I knew it would be a compromise, but I was unprepared for the loss of handling, which I attribute almost entirely to weight (1300 additional pounds!). The M8 is a BEAST, but it's white knuckle handling compared to the 911. So I traded the M8 for a M4 vert a week ago. Another compromise (compared to the 911) but a MUCH more satisfying driver for me. I'll miss the very raw power of the 8, but the M4 is simply a better 911 replacement. And costing less than half of a new GTS doesn't hurt!

Those GTS rising prices are heartbreaking for sure, I expect to have an allocation for one next spring and will probably bail, it's just too much money for a track day/weekend hobby car but after having owned 2 G8X and tracking them I will be switching platform, the new BMW are great 7-8/10th cars but after that they lack steering feel and can't cope with continuous laps without extentive modifications. At least with Porsche even a 718 GTS will take a full day of pounding no problem and has the OEM adjustability to give the minimum camber for the usage.

May take a jump to GM(Cadillac)Alpha platform or even a C8 just for fun before ending in a GT4 permanently for track duty.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by PLF69

Those GTS rising prices are heartbreaking for sure, I expect to have an allocation for one next spring and will probably bail, it's just too much money for a track day/weekend hobby car but after having owned 2 G8X and tracking them I will be switching platform, the new BMW are great 7-8/10th cars but after that they lack steering feel and can't cope with continuous laps without extentive modifications. At least with Porsche even a 718 GTS will take a full day of pounding no problem and has the OEM adjustability to give the minimum camber for the usage.

May take a jump to GM(Cadillac)Alpha platform or even a C8 just for fun before ending in a GT4 permanently for track duty.

When I was at the Ring last month (still pinching myself) I was waiting to take my rental car out when the track was closed. Was talking to my instructor who has raced there extensively and another patron of the rental service. The other patron wanted to know, since I was American, "what was the deal with the Corvette?" (as if me being American automatically makes me a Corvette fan, lolz). I told him I didn't know but had heard on track they had cooling issues.

I told him that for my money, I'd get a 6 cylinder Cayman and just go from there. Tons of track support, very good platform, and they "just work". The guy kept trying to talk himself into the Corvette because "everyone here has a BMW or a Porsche". The instructor was listening for a while and was like "look, buddy, why do you think that is? Because they WORK. Forget the Fucking Corvette, listen to our American friend". LOL.

My advice still stands.

[khanyam4]

These type of threads always make me laugh. Comparing a sports car to a lowly mass produce sports sedan. I guess these threads wouldn't exist if we BMW enthusiast have Porsche money.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by khanyam4

These type of threads always make me laugh. Comparing a sports car to a lowly mass produce sports sedan. I guess these threads wouldn't exist if we BMW enthusiast have Porsche money.

Maybe you should re-read. There is a lot of overlap, a lot who have owned both, and more than one who has gone from a 911 to an M car.

More subtle than that, despite what you saying about purpose built sports car vs. mass market sedan being accurate.