[GrannyShiftG80]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ubNZ-4gmsw

I was looking at buying a helmet for the track but one of guys in the group told me that helmets are actually more dangerous for stock cars.

He then sent me the above video by Misha that helmets cause more damage than protection unless you also have a HANS device, harness, and roll cage.

So therefore a helmet would be more dangerous than no helmet for a stock G80?

[Ximian]

Originally Posted by Allenssmart

So therefore a helmet would be more dangerous than no helmet for a stock G80?

Absolutely not.

1. There is no evidence presented supporting the claims of a heavy helmet being whipped back* by the air bag causing damage/whiplash. The drawback of the mass of a helmet causing an additional neck extension and injuries from it does not outweigh the benefits of wearing a helmet. There are many, many, many more instances where a helmet will be safer than not.

a. Airbags can be faulty and there could be instances of impacts where they do not deploy. A head against a steering wheel will sustain more damage than a helmet hitting a steering wheel, and the head hitting the inside of a padded helmet.
b. Side curtain airbags may not always deploy and they can also be damaged or otherwise ineffective when they deploy. A helmet impacting the A-pillar, B-pillar, the ground, or roof is preferred.
c. Airbags and three point seat belts are far less effective during rollovers where the additional protection provided by a helmet is very helpful.
d. Helmets can reduce the severity of head injuries (e.g. from fatal to critical) when an impact or impacts exceed the protections provided by all other safety systems in the car.

2. The HANS device and similar devices were created to reduce neck injuries and chance of death when the torso is restrained with harnesses, not a three point belt. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HANS_device#History / http://www.catchfence.com/2006/persp...r-bob-hubbard/
a. Three point belts do not have the ability to restrain the torso that well (e.g. existence of airbags on steering wheel) and are nearly useless in rollovers.

3. All combinations of safety devices have drawbacks, but are always better than "no helmet is sometimes better"
a. If you have a harness, HANS device, roll cage, halo seat (containment/reducing lateral head movement), window nets and arm restraints is pretty much the top tier of safety devices but will also have drawbacks.

*For BMW CCA events, the visor/face shield must either be fully closed or removed from the helmet to prevent the face shield from interfering with an airbag. I did several days with the face shield closed and it's not too bad, even close to 90F temperatures with windows down.

[GrannyShiftG80]

Originally Posted by Ximian

Absolutely not.

1. There is no evidence presented supporting the claims of a heavy helmet being whipped back* by the air bag causing damage/whiplash. The drawback of the mass of a helmet causing an additional neck extension and injuries from it does not outweigh the benefits of wearing a helmet. There are many, many, many more instances where a helmet will be safer than not.

a. Airbags can be faulty and there could be instances of impacts where they do not deploy. A head against a steering wheel will sustain more damage than a helmet hitting a steering wheel, and the head hitting the inside of a padded helmet.
b. Side curtain airbags may not always deploy and they can also be damaged or otherwise ineffective when they deploy. A helmet impacting the A-pillar, B-pillar, the ground, or roof is preferred.
c. Airbags and three point seat belts are far less effective during rollovers where the additional protection provided by a helmet is very helpful.
d. Helmets can reduce the severity of head injuries (e.g. from fatal to critical) when an impact or impacts exceed the protections provided by all other safety systems in the car.

2. The HANS device and similar devices were created to reduce neck injuries and chance of death when the torso is restrained with harnesses, not a three point belt. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HANS_device#History / http://www.catchfence.com/2006/persp...r-bob-hubbard/
a. Three point belts do not have the ability to restrain the torso that well (e.g. existence of airbags on steering wheel) and are nearly useless in rollovers.

3. All combinations of safety devices have drawbacks, but are always better than "no helmet is sometimes better"
a. If you have a harness, HANS device, roll cage, halo seat (containment/reducing lateral head movement), window nets and arm restraints is pretty much the top tier of safety devices but will also have drawbacks.

*For BMW CCA events, the visor/face shield must either be fully closed or removed from the helmet to prevent the face shield from interfering with an airbag. I did several days with the face shield closed and it's not too bad, even close to 90F temperatures with windows down.

Thank you I really appreciate your detailed explanation

[PLF69]

Altrough it practically never happened in the last 5 years, I got hit by rubber in the face 2 times this season and am thinking of running with the visor closed or sunglasses. It could of been finger size rock too.

[TopJimmy]

I’ve been at the track and had a rock hit my visor.

At the strip I wrecked and my helmet saved my face from the airbag.

Two good reasons to always wear yours…

[GrannyShiftG80]

How do you get hit by rocks and rubber inside the car ?

[Hit_Apex]

Originally Posted by Allenssmart

How do you get hit by rocks and rubber inside the car ?

It's rare but happens. I've never been hit by a rock but tire clag seems to get flung around at all directions and angles on a busy track. Been hit a few times.

[PLF69]

Originally Posted by Hit_Apex

It's rare but happens. I've never been hit by a rock but tire clag seems to get flung around at all directions and angles on a busy track. Been hit a few times.

Originally Posted by Allenssmart

How do you get hit by rocks and rubber inside the car ?

Sometimes beginners will go offline bring pebbles/rocks on the good lines. Every track is different, some only have sand or grass on the side. My local track we have to drive trough a dirt road that goes trough the track to enter so it's obvious rocks get stuck on sticky tires and get dragged everywhere.

[BMWRacer523]

whoever told you that is flat wrong!

[TopJimmy]

Originally Posted by Allenssmart

How do you get hit by rocks and rubber inside the car ?

Things bounce around, sometimes off a sidewall and into a window down only an inch or two. Other times you may be taking a turnoff just as a rock is flinging your way.

[forcefed]

Originally Posted by Allenssmart

I was looking at buying a helmet for the track but one of guys in the group told me that helmets are actually more dangerous for stock cars.

You won't be let on a track without a helmet so have fun installing a cage/hans/harness.
Youtubers make content for the clicks/shock value sometimes, you need to weed out the bs.

[clutchdj]

Originally Posted by forcefed

.
Youtubers make content for the clicks/shock value sometimes, you need to weed out the bs.

Yup. The guy can drive, but he’s Mr. know it all.

Just wear a helmet. You don’t need a hans the same day but it can and WILL save your neck especially as you get faster OP. The safety devices combined always reduce the risk of a more serious injury.

[Ximian]

Originally Posted by clutchdj

Yup. The guy can drive, but he’s Mr. know it all.

Just wear a helmet. You don’t need a hans the same day but it can and WILL save your neck especially as you get faster OP. The safety devices combined always reduce the risk of a more serious injury.

They're in a rare situation where the local track for them is a publicly accessible toll road called the Nurburgring Nordschleife. That means they have to follow the laws of all roads where you only pass on the left and need to be able to check behind you/blind spots when when switching lanes to pass.

Helmets are allowed on tourist driving days and on the public roads, so they canbe used. It's wild that some people are fine with going on tourist day drives without a helmet and then are fine wearing a helmet on track days while driving exactly the same.

HANS and similar devices are not allowed on tourist days (and public roads) due them impending the ability to check your blind spots, but I could be mistaken there.

The tricky part is for cars with harnesses that are road legal and wearing a helmet. Neck injuries are far more likely in this situation and not significantly lower risk without a helmet. Not being able to wear a HANS or similar device with harnesses is dangerous. With that reasoning, the conclusion some of the videos make is that it's "safer" to not wear a helmet. However, for a car that has harness belts without a helmet and HANS or similar device, the safer option is not to drive it on track. That's certainly an option.

[clutchdj]

Originally Posted by Ximian

They're in a rare situation where the local track for them is a publicly accessible toll road called the Nurburgring Nordschleife. That means they have to follow the laws of all roads where you only pass on the left and need to be able to check behind you/blind spots when when switching lanes to pass.

Helmets are allowed on tourist driving days and on the public roads, so they canbe used. It's wild that some people are fine with going on tourist day drives without a helmet and then are fine wearing a helmet on track days while driving exactly the same.

HANS and similar devices are not allowed on tourist days (and public roads) due them impending the ability to check your blind spots, but I could be mistaken there.

The tricky part is for cars with harnesses that are road legal and wearing a helmet. Neck injuries are far more likely in this situation and not significantly lower risk without a helmet. Not being able to wear a HANS or similar device with harnesses is dangerous. With that reasoning, the conclusion some of the videos make is that it's "safer" to not wear a helmet. However, for a car that has harness belts without a helmet and HANS or similar device, the safer option is not to drive it on track. That's certainly an option.

Yes I got what he was saying in the video.
I was replying in context to the OPs questions.
Full harness’ are generally in race cars because they are stripped for weight benefits. The avg guy doing a track day is running a standard 3pt setup. A little more than half of us run airbags on track. I am going to use this term loosely :-) generally the nasa racers and up on this side of the water are fully caged. There a lot of opinions in the video (and that is fine) but it can be deceiving.

[Nugget]

If I'm on track in a car without harnesses then I wear a Simpson Hybrid S.
It is a head restraint that is designed to work with three point belts.

If the car has harnesses then I'll use a HANS as it's more comfortable.

[FSECorey]

whoever told you driving without helmet on the track is safer.
unfollow him

[fredens]

I was at the BMW Performance Center in Greer, SC, for M School today. The Performance Center does not provide helmets and strongly discourages students from using them. No one in the class of roughly two dozen students and instructors wore a helmet. Cars were stock M2, M3, M4, and M5, none more than a year or two old. From what I could see, M School is not inherently less risky than HPDE. I have done both and find them comparable.

The lead instructor for our group said “the Germans” had done extensive research and determined that BMW safety systems — meaning seat belts and airbags — had advanced to the point that the risk of a neck injury caused by the additional head momentum of a helmet was higher than any safety benefit that a helmet without a HANS might provide. This was not “some guy on the Internet”; it’s Performance Center policy, which must be approved by drivers, doctors (shorthand for safety professionals), and lawyers. I don’t believe it’s a step BMW would take lightly.

With this in mind, I advocate that drivers of late-model street vehicles should have the OPTION of signing a waiver and not wearing a helmet at HPDE events. I say this for no other reason than that I feel safer driving my 2023 M2 on the track without a helmet. I don’t find helmets uncomfortable, I don’t care about my hair, and I am not a cheapskate.

Unfortunately, rather than presenting a factual counter-argument, some folks out there are going to gleefully tell me either to (1) race without a helmet and die, or (2) stay home. I would respectfully ask these people to consider whether they MIGHT be placing dogma ahead of science, or conflating opinions with facts in this narrowly-defined instance. Risk mitigation in most fields is not static; it adapts to changing technology and better understanding of the risks that are being mitigated.

What DOES the science say? Being a race-car driver, in and of itself, does not qualify you to answer (but by all means, feel free). I only ask that you share your qualifications with us so we can separate the wheat from the chaff. Finally, if my style of written communication offends anyone, please know that is not my intention. I have the deepest respect for other members of this forum, the vast majority of whom are clearly smarter than me when it comes to matters automotive or BMW-related. It’s not a high bar, believe me.

[Hit_Apex]

I think I'd rather see HPDE events require HANS (or similar) and a helmet than support a campaign for a no helmet option. The calculus is determined by the insurance company underwriting the liability. I would argue M school is a much more controlled environment than HPDE in that the cars are provided and the manufacturer undoubtedly has compelling data for the models provided. For independent track events, organizers generally adopt the minimum standards set by the insurer who favor data from actual incidents than prospective or modeled scenarios. In other words, until they observe an incident where a helmet was a contributing factor to injury they're unlikely to entertain hypotheticals - for better or worse.

Edit for additional thought: Creating policy that is too specific can expose you to more liability than one more generic. Now you're in the business of defining specific models and years across all brands at the risk of getting that wrong and managing it with overwhelming scrutiny each year. That additional risk might very well outweigh the incremental liability posed by wearing a helmet in a "late model" car.

[fredens]

Great answer. Thank you.

[Ximian]

Originally Posted by fredens

The lead instructor for our group said “the Germans” had done extensive research and determined that BMW safety systems — meaning seat belts and airbags — had advanced to the point that the risk of a neck injury caused by the additional head momentum of a helmet was higher than any safety benefit that a helmet without a HANS might provide. This was not “some guy on the Internet”; it’s Performance Center policy, which must be approved by drivers, doctors (shorthand for safety professionals), and lawyers. I don’t believe it’s a step BMW would take lightly.

The thing is, people like telling stories even if they they don't have all of the information. This instructor and apparently one at Thermal according to a story I read earlier this week.

While it might be Performance Center policy, don't assume that doctors/safety professionals and lawyers were involved in the way you think they should. Do assume that maintaining a fleet of many sized helmets that are no more than 5 years old is a huge expense. Also having different models of helmets in all sizes to accommodate various head shapes. Nothing will ruin your enjoyment of the driving event quicker than a headache caused by an ill-fitting helmet.

What the research likely showed is that with the way the events are designed and run along with the safety systems in the car, participants not wearing a helmet isn't significantly more risky. I doubt the research shows that wearing a helmet is more risky, but again would like to proven wrong by the details of this research.

Take a look at the attached image, even if it is a bit old.

BMW runs a safe event, the instruction is top notch, and there hasn't been any significant incident. That being said, “Safety regulations are written in blood.” There are several examples of seemingly reputable organizations making shocking oversights that were uncovered after unfortunate tragedies. https://www.wesh.com/article/1-kille...rience/4441506 - what contributed to this fatality was that the event was being driven in the reverse of the usual direction and the barriers and run off wasn't designed for it in all areas.

With this in mind, I advocate that drivers of late-model street vehicles should have the OPTION of signing a waiver and not wearing a helmet at HPDE events.

That's not going to happen in the US. Nobody wants to keep a list of acceptable late-model vehicles that should be safe, allowing a participant to sign a waiver to run the event without a helmet, and still risk getting sued when there is a mistake in the list or the airbags malfunction.

Speaking of airbags malfunctioning, even if it is a bit of a tangent. Late model Volvo vehicles have some of the best safety ratings. But if you look at the Volvo documentation for disconnecting and reconnecting the main battery, it says that the first time you turn on the vehicle after reconnecting the main battery, you should do it from the rear seat to avoid getting injured by the air bags deploying (also attached).

While it's a rare occurrence for air bags to deploy after disconnecting the battery, it's far more common for air bags or at least some of the necessary air bags not to deploy in certain impacts. That's why it's important to have multiple levels of protection, with the helmet being your final and possibly least effective level of protection.

What you should be advocating for is that the manufacturers of performance vehicles should make it easier for us to install and use safety gear like harnesses with little or no modifications to factory equipment. Scroth Quick Fit Pro in my E92 is an amazing upgrade. The G80 with bucket seats and cut outs for harnesses but no place to mount them is lousy.

[fredens]

Thanks for this compelling counter-argument.

[Hit_Apex]

Originally Posted by fredens

Thanks for this compelling counter-argument.

Kudos to Ximian for the Volvo deep pull. That blew my mind. The CCA excerpt and the implication is pretty telling too.