[dialogical]

Originally Posted by swagon

LOL

You probably should stop letting other people live rent free in your head

There's a lot of that going around these days - just check out the F80 forums.

[heavyD^2]

I do believe that automotive media is having a difficult time accepting the times and because of that they lack a bit of appreciation of just how good new cars are. I personally just don't understand old car nostalgia as cars are far better today than the past. They are faster, safer, handle better, have more creature comforts, etc. Even C&D has writers that are cynical of Porsche;

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...es-still-good/

The first sign of questionable decisions at Porsche came a few months ago, when I got my first-hand account of the new 911. Not because I thought the 992 was going to be horrible to drive, but because of how significant a departure the 992 makes. Money was clearly taken out of the interior. As Pete Stout, editor of the Porsche-focused 000 Magazine, pointed out, form no longer followed function. Exhibit A: the fake cowl-intake cutlines in the hood. And the addition of options and features, such as active-safety systems, that remove control from the driver. All changes that are very unlike Porsche.

I totally disagree with that take but I'm willing to bet there's a lot of older Porsche enthusiasts that are just as bitter with Porsche over today's offering as there is BMW enthusiasts angry about BMW's current direction. It is what it is.

[MmmmmM2]

Drive what you like. Who cares what reviewers say?

[Multimodal]

Originally Posted by heavyD^2

Yeah I can remember the days (been a subscriber since the early 90's) when they were accused of being BMW fanboys but that ended a decade ago. C&D absolutely despised the F3x and was lukewarm on the F8x. They have been pretty punishing on BMW since then.

Rightly so on the F30 - my wife’s 2014 320i has absolutely zero steering feel or weight. It looks like a BMW but drives like a Lexus. The configurable steering weight in the F8x and G-series chassis is a big improvement. I’m looking forward to trading in the F30 for a G80.

[secretariat]

heavyD2:I do believe that automotive media is having a difficult time accepting the times and because of that they lack a bit of appreciation of just how good new cars are. I personally just don't understand old car nostalgia as cars are far better today than the past. They are faster, safer, handle better, have more creature comforts, etc. Even C&D has writers that are cynical of Porsche;

This is exactly what a 28 year old will be saying 25 years from now when ICE cars are gone. Cars are faster,safer,handle better,more creature comforts, etc. They'll probably go as far as saying something like what were those people thinking putting gasoline in their cars? If you don't understand the nostalgia for e39 m5 or any other "old car" then it's obvious you never drove one.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by secretariat

I understand that this is the G80 forum but to say that the "M3(4) have always offered "near" 911 levels of driving engagement and driving spirit " is pushing it a bit especially lately.

My personal experience at the wheel tells me that the E9X and F8X are closer to the 911 of their respective era than they are to the RS4/5 and C-AMG in terms of driving engagement, that is my point. I cannot comment on the G8X as I have not driven one yet. Further, the M3/4 have always surpassed the base 911 of their era in terms of objective performance. It does not seem to be any different with the G8X for this later point.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by dialogical

I disagree with this. The figures I've seen indicate that M3's have always been around the $75k range adjusting for inflation (unless you want to go back 20 years, at which point I'd question the usefulness of going so far back in time).

Porsche prices, however, have skyrocketed.

We're on the same page regarding base price, where the gap between the M3/4 and 911 has kept increasing. My point is that BMW has kept adding more and more pricey options where many out the door M3/4 are now close or over the base 911 price. But as heavyD^2 has pointed out, there aren't many stripper base 911 out there.

Further, for us in Canada, the G8X base price jumped quite significantly compared to the E46, E9X and F8X...

[WWM3]

Originally Posted by heavyD^2

Yeah I can remember the days (been a subscriber since the early 90's) when they were accused of being BMW fanboys but that ended a decade ago. C&D absolutely despised the F3x and was lukewarm on the F8x. They have been pretty punishing on BMW since then.

Agree w/ you on your F3X and F8X comments, but C&D have given the M2/2 series and the G20 M340i a fair amount of praise.

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by heavyD^2

....but I'm willing to bet there's a lot of older Porsche enthusiasts that are just as bitter with Porsche over today's offering as there is BMW enthusiasts angry about BMW's current direction. It is what it is.

Indeed. Lots of Porschephiles are stuck in the past, as you will hear constantly that the latest 911 is just "too big", "too isolated" and has way too many "safety features" for a true sports car.

Porschephiles are worse than BMW enthusiasts.

It's safe to say some old fogeys will never move on.

And yes, a lot of editors at magazines and car organizations are older (including the beloved Chris Harris), so it's hard for them to fall in love with newer cars. That's to be expected, with size increases, all the new tech, and stifled exhaust notes. I don't blame them.

But it won't stop me from owning a newer car, because I can appreciate the state of automotive engineering today (before we're forced to go hybrid and electric), AND I can appreciate cars from the past, which admittedly do feel way more analog and connected to the overall driver's experience. I'll take both, because depending on my mood, or the trip, or the event, each fills a purpose for me.

[bri1042]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

My personal experience at the wheel tells me that the E9X and F8X are closer to the 911 of their respective era than they are to the RS4/5 and C-AMG in terms of driving engagement, that is my point. I cannot comment on the G8X as I have not driven one yet. Further, the M3/4 have always surpassed the base 911 of their era in terms of objective performance. It does not seem to be any different with the G8X for this later point.

And right there is the point.

If the size- and price-appropriate competitors are truly NOT on the same level (and I personally think that the C63 has plenty going for it, and the different balance/overall purpose of the RS4/5 has some merit), that's what should be being written by professional reviewers. They aren't doing their job WELL if the actual competition for this or the last version of these cars doesn't work for good copy so they skip it and purposefully just write reviews with cars that aren't in the same class.

It would be the same thing as refusing to compare the X3 with other similar vehicles and then constantly complaining that the Suburban has more space in back.

Matt Farah didn't like the M2C's handling after hopping out of a Lotus, too. That was great journalism.

The sad part is that we NEED these reviews. Many folk have trouble getting into one to test drive it, or test drives are too short or in the wrong traffic. And the reviews are just not good journalism.

[jkap27]

Interesting the auto journalists haven't hit the c8 with this 'too capable to be fun' criticism as I see a lot of old school chevy fans saying it all the time. There's also so much variation in how two different drivers can configure the same car using the traction control settings and whatnot and these auto journalists never seem to get into what their setup is.

[dialogical]

Originally Posted by bri1042

And right there is the point.

If the size- and price-appropriate competitors are truly NOT on the same level (and I personally think that the C63 has plenty going for it, and the different balance/overall purpose of the RS4/5 has some merit), that's what should be being written by professional reviewers. They aren't doing their job WELL if the actual competition for this or the last version of these cars doesn't work for good copy so they skip it and purposefully just write reviews with cars that aren't in the same class.

It would be the same thing as refusing to compare the X3 with other similar vehicles and then constantly complaining that the Suburban has more space in back.

Matt Farah didn't like the M2C's handling after hopping out of a Lotus, too. That was great journalism.

The sad part is that we NEED these reviews. Many folk have trouble getting into one to test drive it, or test drives are too short or in the wrong traffic. And the reviews are just not good journalism.

THIS.

I've posted this sentiment all over the place, but the idea is this: journalists provide value because they have driven the other options. Any discussion of capability or performance that isn't being measured against specific alternative options is wasted air.

A few folks have been saying that they think the article is fair, but I disagree. Pinning the results of a review on "fun", when that's potentially the least objective, most historically influenced thing you can possibly talk about when it comes to cars, is garbage. Pure and simple.

[jkap27]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

We're on the same page regarding base price, where the gap between the M3/4 and 911 has kept increasing. My point is that BMW has kept adding more and more pricey options where many out the door M3/4 are now close or over the base 911 price. But as heavyD^2 has pointed out, there aren't many stripper base 911 out there.

Further, for us in Canada, the G8X base price jumped quite significantly compared to the E46, E9X and F8X...

So were dinging bmw for providing better tech that is optional haha I tried to cross shop a moderately optioned cayman s with a moderately optioned m3 and even the cayman was considerably more expensive

[dialogical]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

We're on the same page regarding base price, where the gap between the M3/4 and 911 has kept increasing. My point is that BMW has kept adding more and more pricey options where many out the door M3/4 are now close or over the base 911 price. But as heavyD^2 has pointed out, there aren't many stripper base 911 out there.

Further, for us in Canada, the G8X base price jumped quite significantly compared to the E46, E9X and F8X...

I'm with you on the pricey options, but that's just good business sense.

We all agree you don't need to spend $8k on CCBs and $5k on exterior carbon fiber, but some folks want to, and BMW is smart to service them.

This will sound like I'm a Porsche-hater, but truthfully speaking the real super villain when it comes to options is the boys from Stuttgart. What's that stat? The _average_ 911 has $30k of options on it? Fully optioned M3's don't add that much to the base price.

[jkap27]

'I went into the day fully expecting to hate them' is definitely the quote of the article lol....I also liked 'I feel like my innards were being thrashed around every corner and '...their willingness to make the driver smile'. But of course the last sentence of the article is like meh not fun 🤣

[02M3ForMe]

This generation introduces unprecedented options that inflate the price; namely, CF buckets ($3800) and exterior CF package ($4700). There usually aren't seat options or major appearance packages offered in the main options list for M3/4 (appearance has historically been piecemeal, and we all consider those loaded M-Performance parts cars way overpriced). You can easily go home with a G8x deep in the $70s and still have:

-HUD
-extended leather (no cloth) with all-way power adjustable ventilated seats
-HK sound
-Adaptive M suspension
-laser lights
-proximity Comfort Access
-every exterior camera you can think of (with recording capabilities)
-the latest iDrive with all features activated
-even a power tailgate

And, of course, you still have all of the amazing G8x 911 S-level performance and quality core BMW and M engineering throughout.

This car is an insane value if you are disciplined with options.

[Transfer]

I'll tell you what's fun. This thread. Keep it up!

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by dialogical

I'm with you on the pricey options, but that's just good business sense.

We all agree you don't need to spend $8k on CCBs and $5k on exterior carbon fiber, but some folks want to, and BMW is smart to service them.

This will sound like I'm a Porsche-hater, but truthfully speaking the real super villain when it comes to options is the boys from Stuttgart. What's that stat? The _average_ 911 has $30k of options on it? Fully optioned M3's don't add that much to the base price.

You bet, options are crazy on Porsches. One can easily spin down the rabbit hole.

[Multimodal]

Originally Posted by dialogical

I'm with you on the pricey options, but that's just good business sense.

We all agree you don't need to spend $8k on CCBs and $5k on exterior carbon fiber, but some folks want to, and BMW is smart to service them.

The G05 X5 is the same way. I bought a 10 month old X5 50i last year. It is loaded - the original sticker price was over $95K with options like metallic paint, full Vernasca leather, Convenience Package, Driving Assistance Professional Package, Dynamic Handling Package, Luxury Seating Package, M Sport Package, 21" 741M wheels, Parking Assistance Package, Premium Package, Executive Package, Glass Controls, Front and Rear Heated Seats, Heated Steering Wheel & Armrests.

Does an X5 need an M Sport exhaust system, adaptive M suspension, M Sport brakes, M Sport differential, and four-wheel steering? No! Is BMW making a shit-load of profit for the rich people who tick those boxes and add $8,400 to their MSRP? Yes! (Am I glad I was able to buy a lightly-used car with all this stuff for over $30K off MSRP? Yes. )

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by dialogical

I'm with you on the pricey options, but that's just good business sense.

We all agree you don't need to spend $8k on CCBs and $5k on exterior carbon fiber, but some folks want to, and BMW is smart to service them.

This will sound like I'm a Porsche-hater, but truthfully speaking the real super villain when it comes to options is the boys from Stuttgart. What's that stat? The _average_ 911 has $30k of options on it? Fully optioned M3's don't add that much to the base price.

Originally Posted by 02M3ForMe

This generation introduces unprecedented options that inflate the price; namely, CF buckets ($3800) and exterior CF package ($4700). There usually aren't seat options or major appearance packages offered in the main options list for M3/4 (appearance has historically been piecemeal, and we all consider those loaded M-Performance parts cars way overpriced). You can easily go home with a G8x deep in the $70s and still have:

-HUD
-extended leather (no cloth) with all-way power adjustable ventilated seats
-HK sound
-Adaptive M suspension
-laser lights
-proximity Comfort Access
-every exterior camera you can think of (with recording capabilities)
-the latest iDrive with all features activated
-even a power tailgate

And, of course, you still have all of the amazing G8x 911 S-level performance and quality core BMW and M engineering throughout.

This car is an insane value if you are disciplined with options.

Exactly.

In the past, you could not add insanely expensive options like CCB, CF seats, CF exterior pack to the M3/4 products.
Obviously if you add this stuff then the car becomes expensive. No shit!!

Really it's a bit of an insane conversation to need to have.
Here's an analogy of a conversation, maybe it helps explain the insanity

Peter: I love buying at Trader Joe! It's so cheap! My full cart is only $200!! Awesome. Best place ever!! I buy rice, meat, potatoes and milk.
Melissa: Oh wow. I buy at Whole Foods, but I hate it. When I fill my cart it's over $1000!! I buy rice, meat, potatoes, milk and a lot of caviar. $1000 is so expensive!! Whole Foods is owned by greedy bastards.

To people who have decent reading comprehension, it is clear Melissa and Peter are not comparing apples to apples. From that conversation we know nothing about which supermarket is cheaper or more expensive, as they are not buying the same items.
If someone is loading their cart up with caviar and then surprised at the price, perhaps they need professional help.

Bottom line: if you feel you need CCBs on your M3, you should also need them in your 911, or whatever you're cross shopping with. Just like if you wanted to eat caviar, then you should be buying it in whatever supermarket you go to.

[dialogical]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Exactly.

In the past, you could not add insanely expensive options like CCB, CF seats, CF exterior pack to the M3/4 products.
Obviously if you add this stuff then the car becomes expensive. No shit!!

Really it's a bit of an insane conversation to need to have.
Here's an analogy of a conversation, maybe it helps explain the insanity

Peter: I love buying at Trader Joe! It's so cheap! My full cart is only $200!! Awesome. Best place ever!! I buy rice, meat, potatoes and milk.
Melissa: Oh wow. I buy at Whole Foods, but I hate it. When I fill my cart it's over $1000!! I buy rice, meant, potatoes, milk and a lot of caviar. $1000 is so expensive!!

To people who have decent reading comprehension, it is clear Melissa and Peter are not comparing apples to apples. From that conversation we know nothing about which supermarket is cheaper or more expensive, as they are not buying the same items.

Bottom line: if you feel you need CCBs on your M3, you should also need them in your 911, or whatever you're cross shopping with. Just like if you wanted to eat caviar, then you should be buying it in whatever supermarket you go to.

Half the forum lost you at "for people with reading comprehension…"

[bri1042]

Plus, caviar is icky.