[M3AWD]

Originally Posted by Bunkei

Nothing wrong with that. "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" right? You are the first person (that I've seen) who referred to Cadillac's styling as boring and very conservative. Again, this used to be a common complaints against BMWs.

Still, more competition is a win for all involved ...

As a data point I do see many BMW designs boring & conservative such as the current M5, but I do like the M8 and M8GC

[Bunkei]

Originally Posted by M3AWD

As a data point I do see many BMW designs boring & conservative such as the current M5, but I do like the M8 and M8GC

Agreed! I really like the M8. It's one of the few cars that didn't change much from concept to production. If I was out on the town with friends, that car is the GT I'd like to roll with.

[d001]

Originally Posted by car_fan

I’m 19 BMW’s in and counting, and will still happily drive a Cadillac. There are a number of “current” BMW’s that squeak & creak as well with a number of well known quality control issues. Not too long ago, I had a brand new $90k BMW fail on me with 700 miles on the odo. If you think BMW’s quality control is beyond reproach I have a bridge to sell you Sure there are a number of Caddy’s that can be associated with geriatrics. But then there are other Cadillac variants that are undoubtedly drivers cars. BTW: Cadillac has done pretty well in endurance racing as well. Guesss some of those old guys like to drive

2017, 2018, 2019 and 2020
Consecutive Champions
Cadillac Racing Trophy Icon
MICHELIN NORTH AMERICAN
ENDURANCE CUP
2017, 2018, 2019 and 2020
Consecutive Champions
Cadillac Racing Trophy Icon
IMSA WEATHERTECH
SPORTSCAR CHAMPIONSHIP
2017 and 2018 Consecutive Champions

Weird....no comments on this one. The GM Alpha 2 platform is much more of a driver's car than the new G8X. But I guess everyone is focused on looks, badge, interior gimmicks and newest electronics. This is what sells today, not how dynamic and involving the car is...

[Bunkei]

Originally Posted by d001

Weird....no comments on this one. The GM Alpha 2 platform is much more of a driver's car than the new G8X. But I guess everyone is focused on looks, badge, interior gimmicks and newest electronics. This is what sells today, not how dynamic and involving the car is...

It's hard to knock BMW for focusing on those priorities considering their sales #'s have never been better. I do lament that it's no longer the clear "driver's car", but what worries me further is .. what automaker has emerged to build a car that walks the tight-rope of being a great daily driver as well as a great driver's car? Infiniti seemed to have stopped trying after the G37. Lexus still sells the IS, and perhaps with the IS500, they will finally build a sedan that is more focused on driving and performance. Genesis has a heavily-revised G70 on the way that's quite the head-turner, and the current generation probably has come closest to feeling like the old 3-series. Then there's Cadillac. First off, BRAVO for offering a manual transmission in BOTH the CT4-VB and CT5-VB.

If I had the money, I'd snatch up the CT5-VB. This is probably the last V8-powered sedan of any kind to offer a manual transmission. I tend to look at it as somewhat of a collector's item. If it turns out to be the driver's car like the ATS was, then what could possibly prevent it from being cross-shopped? Let's get real for the moment - we don't buy this kind of car for the interior. Reliability and dealer experience is somewhat of a crapshoot.

That leaves vanity. There's NOTHING wrong with buying a car for the badge. Most goods and services have a segment where it is more expensive than others; not because it is necessarily better, but because of the reputation. Ferrari and Lamborghini are two examples in the automotive industry that thrives on this. I don't judge anyone who decides to purchase for this reason--as long as you're honest about it.

[heavyD^2]

Originally Posted by d001

Weird....no comments on this one. The GM Alpha 2 platform is much more of a driver's car than the new G8X. But I guess everyone is focused on looks, badge, interior gimmicks and newest electronics. This is what sells today, not how dynamic and involving the car is...

Well isn't Cadillac proof that regardless of how good a chassis is that if you surround it with crappy interiors and mediocre build quality it's not going to sell? ATS-V was a better drivers car than an F80 but nobody bought it because it had an interior that wouldn't cut it in a Honda Accord. These new CT4/5 cars have better interiors but they still aren't up to par compared to the Germans and the styling took a step backwards from the ATS/CTS vehicles (Seriously what the hell is up with the vertical LED's hanging from the headlights?) so these vehicles are kind of one step forward, one step back and will likely sell poorly just like the ATS/CTS cars did. GM has some of the best chassis engineers in the business but the brand always fails at putting a complete package together and that's why GM has struggled so much over the decades as they can never get a vehicle right from front to back.

[Bunkei]

Originally Posted by heavyD^2

Well isn't Cadillac proof that regardless of how good a chassis is that if you surround it with crappy interiors and mediocre build quality it's not going to sell? ATS-V was a better drivers car than an F80 but nobody bought it because it had an interior that wouldn't cut it in a Honda Accord. These new CT4/5 cars have better interiors but they still aren't up to par compared to the Germans and the styling took a step backwards from the ATS/CTS vehicles (Seriously what the hell is up with the vertical LED's hanging from the headlights?) so these vehicles are kind of one step forward, one step back and will likely sell poorly just like the ATS/CTS cars did. GM has some of the best chassis engineers in the business but the brand always fails at putting a complete package together and that's why GM has struggled so much over the decades as they can never get a vehicle right from front to back.

The ATS/CTS could have had the best interior in its class, and it wouldn't have made a difference. How well a car sells does not necessarily correlate to the quality of the car. If that was the case, Hyundai would have the best selling cars given the quality of their interiors compared to the competition. Building a big, loyal fanbase in the automotive industry is very difficult and tedious process. The automaker has to usually build something unique, (i.e. Tesla) combined with the use of good timing and shrewd marketing to gain a foothold.

[Scorp!on]

Originally Posted by Bunkei

The ATS/CTS could have had the best interior in its class, and it wouldn't have made a difference. How well a car sells does not necessarily correlate to the quality of the car. If that was the case, Hyundai would have the best selling cars given the quality of their interiors compared to the competition. Building a big, loyal fanbase in the automotive industry is very difficult and tedious process. The automaker has to usually build something unique, (i.e. Tesla) combined with the use of good timing and shrewd marketing to gain a foothold.

That's just not true.
Of course there are Brand loyal People who just go for the brand they love, but if a manufactor really puts an amazing car on the road it will sell.
Look at the GR Yaris for instance, people go nuts about that car.

If Cadillac would really blow away BMW in any aspect and cost about the same or even less you could bet they would sell.
They don't look sporty at all, interior is far behind and the overall Quality just doesn't seem to match up with BMW, Merc, Audi etc.

[Bunkei]

Originally Posted by Scorp!on

That's just not true.
Of course there are Brand loyal People who just go for the brand they love, but if a manufactor really puts an amazing car on the road it will sell.
Look at the GR Yaris for instance, people go nuts about that car.

If Cadillac would really blow away BMW in any aspect and cost about the same or even less you could bet they would sell.
They don't look sporty at all, interior is far behind and the overall Quality just doesn't seem to match up with BMW, Merc, Audi etc.

1) I think you've contradicted yourself there in the first sentence. You admit that brand loyal people only goes for the brand that they love. Given the analytics, the majority of satisfied consumers tend to stick with particular brands through multiple iterations. So even if a competitor puts out a superior product, that in itself is no guarantee to get a consumer to switch.

2) About the GR Yaris, when did it go on sale, and what are the sales #'s on this trim?

3) As to your comment about its looks, interior, and quality: It's subjective, and it makes no sense to argue over subjective observations. I will say that Cadillac models are usually much cheaper than their German rivals. I, for one, do not take issue if they cut corners (within reason) to make their performance cars more affordable to consumers.

[trey100]

Originally Posted by d001

Weird....no comments on this one. The GM Alpha 2 platform is much more of a driver's car than the new G8X. But I guess everyone is focused on looks, badge, interior gimmicks and newest electronics. This is what sells today, not how dynamic and involving the car is...

In all fairness, Cadillac needs to focus on quality more and exterior looks are still a step behind. Every brand isn't perfect for one reason or another but for a street car which is what these are, the M cars offer more of what people want. I really like what Cadillac has been doing and I'm very interested in this black wing version but if all else was equal, I'd go M because of exterior looks, interior quality, reliability, resale value, and the M heritage.

[filostrato]

I seriously considered waiting for the CT4-VB against the new G80. High performance 4 doors with MT are hard to come by these days, and the engineering Cadillac has invested in the platform has to be commended.

The designs of both cars could be justifiably criticized, but side by side the M3 just looks so much better. At this price point one shouldn't have to choose between performance and aesthetics and IMHO the M3 is the more complete package

[heavyD^2]

I would hope that some people would buy the Blackwings. They are good cars that nobody buys and I hate to see another performance car fall by the wayside. It's just tough for brands to climb out from mediocrity and rebuild consumer confidence. The Mazda 3 has received glowing reviews for a while now and the masses largely ignore them, purchasing inferior vehicles like Civics and Corollas.

[Tacoma]

Originally Posted by Bunkei

I remember a time when BMW didn't wow anyone with their interior or exterior designs, but the driving experience was second to none....

There is nothing wrong with this viewpoint, but I just want to point out that it's odd to see BMW enthusiasts turn their nose up at competitors based on styling or the like. The same criticism used to be leveled at BMW, in which the reply would be "if you want a nice interior, buy a Lexus; if you want care anything about the driving experience, buy a BMW".

Times have changed ...

[A] BMW cares less (or not at all) for BMW enthusiasts
[B] BMW's are getting softer, heavier, mainstream, so that the driving experience between it and other brands have narrowed to be no longer 2nd to none but sometimes just 2nd.
[C] BMW has put the spotlight on styling that people turn their noses down on

So, in short, times have changed primarily because BMW has changed to a form that BMW enthusiast no longer recognize.

[rak299]

If I had a Cadillac I would have to wear a bag over my head.

[Bunkei]

Originally Posted by rak299

If I had a Cadillac I would have to wear a bag over my head.

I guess that depends on which Cadillac you own. There's a universe's worth of a difference between the Cadillac Cimmaron and the ATS-V ...

[Jcali86]

I need to go test drive one, I've just been dismissing it because of the brand. I won't be buying one, because I've dreamed of owning an M3 for a long time, but I want to see what ones like!

[scoale]

Originally Posted by Bunkei

1) I think you've contradicted yourself there in the first sentence. You admit that brand loyal people only goes for the brand that they love. Given the analytics, the majority of satisfied consumers tend to stick with particular brands through multiple iterations. So even if a competitor puts out a superior product, that in itself is no guarantee to get a consumer to switch.

2) About the GR Yaris, when did it go on sale, and what are the sales #'s on this trim?

3) As to your comment about its looks, interior, and quality: It's subjective, and it makes no sense to argue over subjective observations. I will say that Cadillac models are usually much cheaper than their German rivals. I, for one, do not take issue if they cut corners (within reason) to make their performance cars more affordable to consumers.

I agree with you completely. Anyone who thinks that most here, including myself, don't have a strong BMW bias is not being intellectually honest.

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by rak299

If I had a Cadillac I would have to wear a bag over my head.

And some say the same about BMWs, especially Porschephiles and even some Mercedes fans.

Cadillac has come a long way, and now they're offering a 668-hp sedan in a manual. Let's see BMW top that.

And GM engineers have built cars with an excellent chassis over the last 5 years using the maglev shocks, so their Vs tend to handle really well too, as they're quite balanced.

I actually think performance wise, manual vs manual, the V's may outperform the new Ms - dollar for dollar. The CT5V is more akin to the new M3 in dollars (once you option them equally), not the M5...and that makes the CT5V a compelling alternative.

So then it will come down to interior quality and aesthetics. I think the Caddies look pretty good, but I'm not a fan of the interior. But anyone that is, I think the Caddy will go toe to toe with BMW's new M models.

[solstice]

The CT5-V doesn’t look that bad on the outside. Unfortunately the inside looks like typical Caddy shyte. Still I’m curious to see the reviews and track times.

[rak299]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

And some say the same about BMWs, especially Porschephiles and even some Mercedes fans.

Cadillac has come a long way, and now they're offering a 668-hp sedan in a manual. Let's see BMW top that.

And GM engineers have built cars with an excellent chassis over the last 5 years using the maglev shocks, so their Vs tend to handle really well too, as they're quite balanced.

I actually think performance wise, manual vs manual, the V's may outperform the new Ms - dollar for dollar. The CT5V is more akin to the new M3 in dollars (once you option them equally), not the M5...and that makes the CT5V a compelling alternative.

So then it will come down to interior quality and aesthetics. I think the Caddies look pretty good, but I'm not a fan of the interior. But anyone that is, I think the Caddy will go toe to toe with BMW's new M models.

I don't claim my reaction is rational, and if they made the only MT, I can imagine trying to learn to drive with a bag.

[heavyD^2]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

And some say the same about BMWs, especially Porschephiles and even some Mercedes fans.

Cadillac has come a long way, and now they're offering a 668-hp sedan in a manual. Let's see BMW top that.

And GM engineers have built cars with an excellent chassis over the last 5 years using the maglev shocks, so their Vs tend to handle really well too, as they're quite balanced.

I actually think performance wise, manual vs manual, the V's may outperform the new Ms - dollar for dollar. The CT5V is more akin to the new M3 in dollars (once you option them equally), not the M5...and that makes the CT5V a compelling alternative.

So then it will come down to interior quality and aesthetics. I think the Caddies look pretty good, but I'm not a fan of the interior. But anyone that is, I think the Caddy will go toe to toe with BMW's new M models.

The regular CT5-V is not an M3 alternative and more an M340i alternative. In fact it was a second slower around VIR than the M340i in the 2021 Car & Driver Lightning lap so I don't see many people cross shopping it with an M3. The Blackwing version is in a higher price bracket than an M3. It's kind of weird where GM priced these vehicles as they the CTV-4 and CTV-5 are bigger than the 3 and 5 series but they also are in a bit of a higher price bracket and in a bit of a no-man's land. I think used is where these will be good value.

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...storical-data/

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by heavyD^2

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...storical-data/

Ah, oK, my bad!

[M3AWD]

Originally Posted by heavyD^2

The regular CT5-V is not an M3 alternative and more an M340i alternative. In fact it was a second slower around VIR than the M340i in the 2021 Car & Driver Lightning lap so I don't see many people cross shopping it with an M3. The Blackwing version is in a higher price bracket than an M3. It's kind of weird where GM priced these vehicles as they the CTV-4 and CTV-5 are bigger than the 3 and 5 series but they also are in a bit of a higher price bracket and in a bit of a no-man's land. I think used is where these will be good value.

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...storical-data/

I thought the CT4 is bigger than the 2er and smaller than the 3er

and the CT5 is bigger than the 3er and smaller than the 5er