[Dr. Dorito]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

Not necessarily... even with the same redline, you can increase power while maintaining the same torque by moving that peak torque further up the rev range. So rather than peak torque hitting at 4,000 rpm, it hits at 5,000 rpm as an example.

This is exactly what's happening here. Whereas in the standard m3 peak torque of 406 lb/ft hits at 2,650 rpm, in the 3.0 csl peak torque hits at 7,200 rpm. So that means more power output even though peak torque remains the same.

That’s a good point. I had to look at a dyno chart again and it looks like it would need about 50 more ft-lbs at 7200 rpm to achieve 553 hp. That lines up with the advertised numbers but it would mean keeping the peak torque all the way to the redline. I guess that also lines up with the technical documents for the engine claiming it can really spin to 7500 rpm, so 7200 could still produce numbers like that without choking.

[RACE M3]

Originally Posted by Dr. Dorito

It makes no sense that the power could go up but the torque remain the same unless the redline rises, right? That begs the question: does the CSL have any differences in its transmission? Or does BMW simply not care if they have to perform warranty work on 50 cars that will never be driven and sold for hundreds of thousands of profit each?

You're correct if we were talking about a naturally aspirated engine. Turbos, especially boost by gear, allows the powerband to be easily manipulated.

JB4 map 6 is an example of that. You can add zero power until 6000rpms and throw everything at it. Your dyno peak trq won't change, but you'll gain 80+whp.

[AhsanU]

BMW detuned the S58 so more people would spend money on the Competition models. BMW also would lose less money on servicing because the ZF8 is far less likely to cause issues vs the ZF6MT (ZF make both the auto and the manual for BMW). Less issues that means fewer trips to the dealership service center where BMW might have to foot the bill for warranty work + being able to ask more for money on the Competition model = an easy no brainer for BMW to detune the base model with the 6MT and blame it on its ability to not withstand torque. I had no signs of slippage while pushing 540whp/550wtq and abusing it on track.

I have no idea what the take rate is for the 6MT, but I’d wager it’s far less than the F8X. The xDrive proposition and being able to hit 10’s with relatively minimal mods means the take rate on the 6MT and even RWD Competition is pretty low right now - I can’t blame em.

[GearRex]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

For the 100th time... it's the torque that's the issue... not the power. How much torque does the 3.0 CSL have?

The 3.0 CSL is rated at 553 HP (50 more than the Competition Model) while the torque is rated at 406 Lb-Ft (same as the base model) with a manual transmission. So you are correct with regard to the Torque being the important figure for the manual transmission.

However, this makes me think that BMW could have tuned the base motor to produce the 503 HP (same as the Competition) while maintaining the Torque numbers at 406 Lb-ft and keep the same manual transmission.

Most definitely this was a Business decision, not an Engineering choice.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by GearRex

The 3.0 CSL is rated at 553 HP (50 more than the Competition Model) while the torque is rated at 406 Lb-Ft (same as the base model) with a manual transmission. So you are correct with regard to the Torque being the important figure for the manual transmission.

However, this makes me think that BMW could have tuned the base motor to produce the 503 HP (same as the Competition) while maintaining the Torque numbers at 406 Lb-ft and keep the same manual transmission.

Most definitely this was a Business decision, not an Engineering choice.

It's both. There is a legitimate engineering limitation - bmw isn't just full of shit. But that engineering limitation is there as a result of a business decision.

Regardless, I'm still enjoying the hell out of this car. And in day to day driving the extra 30hp while maintaining the same torque wouldn't really improve my experience unless I'm constantly doing top end pulls. I'm not too worried about "bragging rights" for saying I have over 500hp.

Now if BMW decided to improve the manual trans and beef up the clutch and offer a "Competition package"? That's another story...

[vbb]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

I'm not too worried about "bragging rights" for saying I have over 500hp.

Now if BMW decided to improve the manual trans and beef up the clutch and offer a "Competition package"? That's another story...

Well, to be fair, given the underrated status of the engines, you probably do have over 500hp in your manual M3 (at the crank) when you consider what they're putting down to the wheels. But yes, I still wish they had offered a manual comp.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by vbb

Well, to be fair, given the underrated status of the engines, you probably do have over 500hp in your manual M3 (at the crank) when you consider what they're putting down to the wheels. But yes, I still wish they had offered a manual comp.

Yeah I think Auto revolution clocked it at 496hp and 448 lb/ft when they took their 6MT to the dyno.