[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by user12464

I think it all comes down to definition of a sports car and what kind of experience you are after. I sold my 981 Cayman and replaced it with M3CX so I've also compared the two directly.

No doubt the Cayman is a purpose built sports car and feels like it. But it's also much more of a single purpose vehicle. I loved the Cayman on back roads and on the track, but honestly it was a pain to drive anywhere else especially in traffic. It felt like driving a go kart on the freeway. Consequently I didn't drive it much.

M3 on the other hand is more of a dual purpose vehicle. It can be practical and easy to drive when you want it to be. But also fast, lively and fun on back roads and track. Personally I'd consider it a "sports car" in that it's fast and fun to drive, but perhaps in a different way than a Cayman. But if you don't like to drive the M3 for the sake of driving, you're doing something wrong.

Your comparison to old, tuned civics is interesting. The current Cayman is a 10 year old platform so in many ways probably closer to and older civic in feel just because it's design is dated. That doesn't make it a bad car, but more modern platforms have more versatility. A 992 911 feels more modern and isolating with a dual personality that is sporty when you want it to be, much like the M3.

THIS.

It's not a sports car. It is simply too big to really be a sports car. It's 4 doors and well over 3,500 lbs. However....

...on fast back roads, it'll keep up. And it's WAY more practical. I'm on my second 911..a 997 Turbo S. And while the 997 is a wonderful car, and definitely does not feel mass market or based on a platform which is shared with 4 cylinder entry-level luxury cars, it's still not the best for daily use. And it's a Turbo, not a GT3! I'm being put into a situation with my son just having gotten his license that I'll need to make a choice of daily driving the 911 or doing something else...and I'm increasingly leaning toward a G80CX.

I mean, I live in Houston, so good roads are hard to find. Once every month or two, I go out toward the hill country on the weekend with some local groups, and we bang around the back roads at felonious speeds. The Turbo S is great but to be honest, I'm sure I could do it just as easily, and have just as much fun, in the G80CX. And it would a lot more comfortable on the hour ride out there. And then during the week, all the creature comforts and ease of use would make my life a lot easier.

Now, if you're going to push past 7/10ths, or if you're tracking, I've no doubt that the lighter weight of the 911 would start opening a pretty meaningful gap on the G80, all other things being equal. Again, it's not a purpose built sports car.

But does it need to be? For most people, it's more than enough. More than enough speed, fizz, engagement, excitement, etc. When I drive the 997 I don't immediately go...oh this is just so much sportier, yadda yadda. Driven around town, it's lower, and a bit more nimble, but then again driven around town, my old Model 3 Performance would leave them both for dead. And that is CERTAINLY not a sports car.

So...who the hell cares if it is a sports car or not? It's still a great vehicle.

[PhiDeltBeers]

IMO, all this comes down to perspective of our experiences with different cars we own or have owned in the past. I currently own several cars and each one offers something completely different for me. I'm more of a feel/emotional connection guy and don't really get caught up in all the times, specs etc. I don't track. My R8 is a straight piped naturally aspirated symphony beast of a machine that just makes me laugh when I drive it. I get into my M3 after driving the R8 and I think, God this is Tesla-like. OTOH, I drive the G wagon, Jeep or Range Rover a few days and get into the M3 and realize how much joy it brings me. I think if I could only have one car, the M3 checks all the boxes for me. Label it what you want, but at the end of the day does it really matter? I love the M3 for my intended purposes.

[bri1042]

Originally Posted by PhiDeltBeers

IMO, all this comes down to perspective of our experiences with different cars we own or have owned in the past. I currently own several cars and each one offers something completely different for me. I'm more of a feel/emotional connection guy and don't really get caught up in all the times, specs etc. I don't track. My R8 is a straight piped naturally aspirated symphony beast of a machine that just makes me laugh when I drive it. I get into my M3 after driving the R8 and I think, God this is Tesla-like. OTOH, I drive the G wagon, Jeep or Range Rover a few days and get into the M3 and realize how much joy it brings me. I think if I could only have one car, the M3 checks all the boxes for me. Label it what you want, but at the end of the day does it really matter? I love the M3 for my intended purposes.

On Jason Cammisa's Carmuddgeon show, he and Derek recently read off of the spreadsheets of every car they've ever driven that they keep. Jason's spreadsheet had around 3000 entries. All I could think was that it gives him, perhaps, TOO many cars to compare every car to and how very, very different his perspective must be.

On a different note, it really is tiring how much gatekeeping plays out on car forums. What is and isn't a luxury car. What is and isn't fast. What is and isn't a proper SUV or Sports car. What's expensive vs cheap. Etc... I try to be positive in posts, and often choose not to respond at all vs. directly disagreeing with anyone (except when it comes to M stripes on the grille).

Folk need to be allowed to have their own bucket of experiences and not be slapped around for using the wrong word or term here and there.

[Nativetexan]

Some people complained about the f80 that it was too harsh etc and look how bmw responded a softer car no dct to make it more daily driver friendly. Even on the G80 people are so scared of a harsh ride so to speak.



Count me as one who thought the F80comp was too harsh. I absolutely loved the DCT and counted it was the favorite part of the vehicle honestly. But the suspension was just too much for it to be a true daily driver, which I did for 2 years. Shuttling kids, groceries, athletic practices etc. It was just too stiff.

I’m trying to find a G80 to test drive hoping it’s more liveable.

A F80c as a second or third car, sure, it’s perfect. But the claims of a true daily were by a minority with asses and lower backs made of steel, in my opinion : )

[Allerum]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

THIS.
Now, if you're going to push past 7/10ths, or if you're tracking, I've no doubt that the lighter weight of the 911 would start opening a pretty meaningful gap on the G80, all other things being equal. Again, it's not a purpose built sports car.

Texas is a hard spot to find some nice roads for sure. Don't envy you there.

For this part of your comment is where we disagree. Pushing past 7/10ths is going to leave that 911 for dead. That is what the lap times are showing. So it conflicts with your definition here. The G80 is going to gap the 911 hard. Unless its a 992 Turbo S or GT3.

Sports cars are measured by lap times IMO. Some people think they should be measured by feel. But the clock is king to me.

[wasya152]

Spent some time yesterday with my bro in his g80. I think the issue that I feel like that adds to the lack of excitement, to me at least, is that the car feels synthetic to me. The noise, since you don't actually hear anything for real, feels off. The car is so insulated that it feels like they have to make it up and the result is that it doesn't feel organic but synthesized and video gamish.

[wasya152]

Originally Posted by Nativetexan

Some people complained about the f80 that it was too harsh etc and look how bmw responded a softer car no dct to make it more daily driver friendly. Even on the G80 people are so scared of a harsh ride so to speak.



Count me as one who thought the F80comp was too harsh. I absolutely loved the DCT and counted it was the favorite part of the vehicle honestly. But the suspension was just too much for it to be a true daily driver, which I did for 2 years. Shuttling kids, groceries, athletic practices etc. It was just too stiff.

I’m trying to find a G80 to test drive hoping it’s more liveable.

A F80c as a second or third car, sure, it’s perfect. But the claims of a true daily were by a minority with asses and lower backs made of steel, in my opinion : )

I think the CS adjustments they did to the suspension with the softer springs and 19 inch wheels made that so much better. It's too bad that it had to be the end of the the road cs model though

[jmg]

Originally Posted by DO444

No lol
Maybe I just need to give it more time and let the hounds loose lol.

I’ve only had it to 100, and not really done that much in it. I am talking subjectively here on how it feels to be in moving around, but you are correct… I have not explored the vehicle’s limits in any direction.

What I am experiencing may be what the writers say is a lack of engagement due to how refined the ride is at this point. It might be that “sports car” = drama to me.

I have no doubt that the actual ability of the car is mind boggling. I hope what I said makes sense. I don’t think anyone would argue that the m3 is more capable than the 718. It certainly feels very capable, but it lacks… drama.

Maybe that’s really what I am saying.

The G80 is closer to the 718 than you think

Not to bring up the cliche Ring times yet again, but it is a good indication of what the cars are capable of at the limit in both outright speed, braking and handling:

718 S - 7:46
718 GTS 4.0 - 7:38
718 GT4 - 7:32
G82 M4 RWD - 7:30
G82 M4 Competition X-Drive - 7:28
G82 M4 CSL - 7:15
718 GT4RS - 7:04

It isn’t until the hardcore GT4RS that the 718 is faster than it’s G82 counterpart.

The traditional definition of a sports car doesn’t include the 718 GT4RS since it has a fixed roof, so I’d take the term “Sports Car” with a grain of salt. It’s too broad, because the GT4RS certainly is a purpose built sports car. The M3/4 is a sports sedan and coupe based on a street car. To me, there is a charm in a car you can fit 4 adults in that can still be faster on a track than something built to primarily perform on the track. Doesn’t that qualify it as a sports car as well?

[g82sac]

I just got through break in… and while I value all the opinions shared on this post—- this car is amazing.

The power delivery is seamless. It just keeps pulling.

Throw it in comfort and it’s just a “nice bmw”.

I truly feel this is going down as the best m3/m4 ever made.

For sub 100k —- nothing compares for what you’re getting. Sure you can get a “faster” car or a more “luxurious” car… but to have BOTH at this price point….

My god. I’m. In. Love.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by DO444

Could be lol!
Idk, I haven’t ridden in the m4.

Does it really feel that different?
I needed the doors so, again I bought the car for family carriage.

I guess I was a little surprised as to how laid back the car is overall since it is billed as kind of the car to beat, or maybe it WAS billed that way for awhile.

I think automotive journalists have actually been pretty honest about this gen m3, what it is and what it isn’t. I tended to disbelieve them that the m3 character had changed and was a little uninspired.

I wouldn’t personally use that term but I see where they are coming from with their write ups.

The M4 does have a lower roofline and lower seat floor, which changes the driving experience slightly.

The G8X, much like the F8X before it has a Jekyll and Hyde personality. It’s not that exciting on the street and sane speeds. It’s when you open it up where things get exciting. I’ve tracked both platform for years, chased, caught, and passed many Caymans and 911s. I’ve been passed by many as well, of course, but only those who haven’t ridden the edge say the M3/4 isn’t inspired. It’s a handful.

[Tyga11]

Originally Posted by wasya152

Spent some time yesterday with my bro in his g80. I think the issue that I feel like that adds to the lack of excitement, to me at least, is that the car feels synthetic to me. The noise, since you don't actually hear anything for real, feels off. The car is so insulated that it feels like they have to make it up and the result is that it doesn't feel organic but synthesized and video gamish.

Sounds like your bro is a bit of a weeny and is afraid to push the car...plenty of excitement once you actually push it!

[jmg]

Originally Posted by wasya152

Spent some time yesterday with my bro in his g80. I think the issue that I feel like that adds to the lack of excitement, to me at least, is that the car feels synthetic to me. The noise, since you don't actually hear anything for real, feels off. The car is so insulated that it feels like they have to make it up and the result is that it doesn't feel organic but synthesized and video gamish.

The ASD is more difficult to defeat in the G80, unlike the F80, which takes a few minutes to do, which plays a big part in that “synthetic” feel along with the digital gauges. Make no mistake, however, than even compared to the F80 M3 CS, which I tracked heavily, that the G80 chassis is stiffer and the steering is more responsive and sharper. While it’s still numb compared to the hydraulic assisted systems of yesteryear, and compared to Porsche’s steering, it’s still a slight improvement over the F80 which is not only equally numb, but also not as sharp.


In fairness, there is more to the sound issue than the car itself. With EU exhaust regulations introduced post-F80, I’m afraid even the G80 MPE will not sound as good as the F80 it did. BMW’s hands are tied.

We have to go aftermarket to really get the sound experience we like.

The F80 M3 CS sounds downright tame with the stock CS exhaust. I had to upgrade to the MPE to really feel like the exhaust note matched the performance. Same for the G82, it’s just too quiet with the factory exhaust. A midpipe solved that problem and it sounds better than my F80 ever did.

The G80 does have slightl less NVH than my F80 did, but I see that as a plus rather than a deterrent for feeling more engaged with the driving experience.

[G80indy]

G80 = Sport Sedan
The very category BMW defined in the 70s
.

[DO444]

Originally Posted by jmg

The G80 is closer to the 718 than you think

Not to bring up the cliche Ring times yet again, but it is a good indication of what the cars are capable of at the limit in both outright speed, braking and handling:

718 S - 7:46
718 GTS 4.0 - 1:38
718 GT4 - 7:32
G82 M4 RWD - 7:30
G82 M4 Competition X-Drive - 7:28
G82 M4 CSL - 7:15
718 GT4RS - 7:04

It isn’t until the hardcore GT4RS that the 718 is faster than it’s G82 counterpart.

The traditional definition of a sports car doesn’t include the 718 GT4RS since it has a fixed roof, so I’d take the term “Sports Car” with a grain of salt. It’s too broad, because the GT4RS certainly is a purpose built sports car. The M3/4 is a sports sedan and coupe based on a street car. To me, there is a charm in a car you can fit 4 adults in that can still be faster on a track than something built to primarily perform on the track. Doesn’t that qualify it as a sports car as well?

Actually, there’s no doubt the g80cx blows the doors off my 718. It’s demonstrably faster and more capable in every direction (until the 718 goes electric this will be the case).

However, there is a charm to the 718 platform that isn’t quantifiable in a spreadsheet. I’m sure you know this. I didn’t realize it until I compared the two vehicles directly under my own hands and feet. That was the basis of my post. I guess I am as some say, more a “feelz” guy.

There is no doubt lb for lb that the g80 is more competent out the gate than the 718, and I’d wager more competent than a base 911 as well. What that means to one is subjective as I do think many will say, “I don’t care, I like the feel of this car better than that one.”

I’m not a cultural relativist but imo neither perspective is absolutely right here; people experience joy in their respective manners which are equally valid.

For me, it’s not a sports car but after reading these replies I actually would say it could be a race car with some light mods. It’s easily fast enough to justify that, and for whatever reason I place a higher emphasis on “feelz” in the sports car category than I do race car.

I realize that’s quite unscientific.
Forgive my lizard brain. A race car, to me, can literally be anything, and it’s only quality needs to be - go fast and win.

The g80 can pretty easily hit that mark. I do love the G platform. I really, really like the car and I think I will drive it more often than the 718 which I love for different reasons (not for raw speed, but for the way it feels while driving it). The G80 is just a wholly easier car to live with though, builds speed much faster, is clearly more competent all around and is a thoroughly enjoyable car to be in.

[wasya152]

Originally Posted by Tyga11

Sounds like your bro is a bit of a weeny and is afraid to push the car...plenty of excitement once you actually push it!

If you only knew how we drive the cars on the road and the track..... Far from it. 😁

[JennyPenny]

When the Cayman goes electric, it will be very heavy.

It will no longer be a Sports car?

Since everyone is harping on G80’s weight

Sports car definition is usually grey.

Just like a Super car, or a hyper car.

I think, G80 is sedan based sports car

If a car is designed (or modified by factory) for “some” track use, it can be a sports car

A Bentley Conti is not a sports car, but their track versions are

Very interesting debate!

[robopp]

718 interior is due for a major update. It has been outdated for a while now. 992 interior is absolutely gorgeous all the way down to the analog tach right in the middle of the stack

[buckybadger]

M3 is a tight fast luxury sedan.

[willywilson]

I consider the M4 more sports car than the M3. But both are high performance aports cars imo

[DO444]

Originally Posted by robopp

718 interior is due for a major update. It has been outdated for a while now. 992 interior is absolutely gorgeous all the way down to the analog tach right in the middle of the stack

I didn’t think it was hugely different.
718 is a bit outdated I guess, but it’s also a timeless clean interior which I think is going to age very well.

[robopp]

Originally Posted by DO444

I didn’t think it was hugely different.
718 is a bit outdated I guess, but it’s also a timeless clean interior which I think is going to age very well.

992 is leaps and bounds more modern and soooo sexy. Perfect blend of technology with a touch of analog. 718 is ancient and due for a refresh.

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by jmg

The G80 is closer to the 718 than you think

Not to bring up the cliche Ring times yet again, but it is a good indication of what the cars are capable of at the limit in both outright speed, braking and handling:

718 S - 7:46
718 GTS 4.0 - 1:38
718 GT4 - 7:32
G82 M4 RWD - 7:30
G82 M4 Competition X-Drive - 7:28
G82 M4 CSL - 7:15
718 GT4RS - 7:04

The raw ability of a car doesn't automatically equal a sports car, else a Miata would quickly fall out of a normal "sports car" definition, and other cars like the M5 CS would be inserted.

But hey, didn't Nissan coin the term with the Maxima already, of creating a 4-door sports car?

The traditional definition of a sports car doesn’t include the 718 GT4RS since it has a fixed roof, so I’d take the term “Sports Car” with a grain of salt. It’s too broad, because the GT4RS certainly is a purpose built sports car. The M3/4 is a sports sedan and coupe based on a street car. To me, there is a charm in a car you can fit 4 adults in that can still be faster on a track than something built to primarily perform on the track. Doesn’t that qualify it as a sports car as well?

Originally, sports cars had to be convertibles, but that's changed over time with the advent of so many small, lighter hardtop 911s, Ferraris, Lambos, McLarens, etc.

Originally Posted by JennyPenny

When the Cayman goes electric, it will be very heavy.

It will no longer be a Sports car?

Since everyone is harping on G80’s weight

Sports car definition is usually grey.

Just like a Super car, or a hyper car.

I think, G80 is sedan based sports car

If a car is designed (or modified by factory) for “some” track use, it can be a sports car

A Bentley Conti is not a sports car, but their track versions are

Very interesting debate!

An electric Cayman will still be a sports car to me, even when it's heavier, because it will be built from the ground up to be a sports car.

The G80 is a 3 series modified (very well, I might add) to be a super sports sedan. M5 CS may be the epitome of a great sports sedan, but is it a sports car? Not to me.

Does it matter what we call it? Nope. It's a badass car.

A Bentley Conti track version is just a modified tank to go faster. Not a sports car to me, just a modified, highly capable car to take it to another level. You can modify any big ol' car with the right engineers and if you throw enough money at it (and shed seats, sound deadening, and weight), but it doesn't make it a sports car.

...while a Miata, built from the ground up to be light and agile (even though it's still slow) fits the definition more. And Caymans too, and even maybe an Audi TT (this one's on the fence though, so I agree it does get grey...but not for all cars). Speed and agility alone don't create a sports car, or there would be some SUVs that would fit the definition.

Originally Posted by DO444

I didn’t think it was hugely different.
718 is a bit outdated I guess, but it’s also a timeless clean interior which I think is going to age very well.

Indeed, the Spyder interior will age well. These G8X video-gamish graphics, not so much.