[solstice]

Originally Posted by 02M3ForMe

Based on the 7:30.79 time, I'd say BMW M made a sufficiently good choice.

Odd that size, weight, ZF8, single-caliper rear brakes, etc are still talking points when the actual realized performance is as great as it is. Of course, reviewers and owners have already told you for months that these things don't matter.

While I agree I think the small rear brake caliper still is a question mark based on some initial reports of excessive pad wear. As expected it seems to have more than enough stopping power but the surface area might be to small to last as long as the front pads which would seem like a minimum requirement for rears.

[02M3ForMe]

Originally Posted by solstice

While I agree I think the small rear brake caliper still is a question mark based on some initial reports of excessive pad wear. As expected it seems to have more than enough stopping power but the surface area might be to small to last as long as the front pads which would seem like a minimum requirement for rears.

That's fair. I personally prefer the safety and functionality of the integrated electronic e-brake solution over more rear pad surface area for my use case (99% street driving), and understand that others disagree with the direction based on how they're intending to use their cars. I'd agree if I were taking the car to the track more often. I'm OK with the tradeoff of more wear for a primarily street-driven car.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by McLaren720s

My theory is that the M8C and M5C with AWD already put the power down much better out of a corner than a RWD car hence there's less need for a sticky tire. It just won't improve the grip DELTA as much as on a RWD platform.
I'm not saying it won't add absolutely any benefit. It might, but when the AWD with solid tire already puts the power down well, a sticker tire makes less of a difference than on a RWD platform.

Though the M5CS can be had with Corsas and the MxDrive G8X has a track tire option in Europe, I don’t know which tire it is, maybe Corsas as well. Corsas are kind of Pirellis PSC2 tire. I just wonder why not stick to PSC2s on the MxDrive track tires when most prefer them over Corsas on RWD cars?

[McLaren720s]

Originally Posted by solstice

Though the M5CS can be had with Corsas and the MxDrive G8X has a track tire option in Europe, I don't know which tire it is, maybe Corsas as well. Corsas are kind of Pirellis PSC2 tire. I just wonder why not stick to PSC2s on the MxDrive track tires when most prefer them over Corsas on RWD cars?

I wonder if BMW has some kind of deal with these tire makers. It's interesting but some G8x come with the recently developed and amazing MPS 4S* and some with regular 4S and some with Pirelli. : It almost looks random

[solstice]

Originally Posted by McLaren720s

I wonder if BMW has some kind of deal with these tire makers. It's interesting but some G8x come with the recently developed and amazing MPS 4S* and some with regular 4S and some with Pirelli. : It almost looks random

It IS random (cruel lottery) for regular customers as us but demo cars to the press and especially the supertest cars are never random.

[XsltAnalyst]

Originally Posted by frank70

I really think you are 100% wrong here. The AWD M4 will be faster roughly from 0 - 60 km/h. Above that speed the RWD is faster. Just have a look at the video and you will see that very rarely the speed in the lap is below 60 km/h and nearly always far above it. So i fail to see how you can think that the AWD will surely be faster.

There also must be a reason that the coming special versions such as CSL and CS models will be RWD versions and not AWD. AWD is super in the real world but not necessarily on a track.

well that's what you think, and I posted what I think so in the end we both don't know for sure. We both don't have the actual numbers, so need to wait until they test out the xDrive version.

I'm sure each side will find excuses if the opposite side wins.
Then they'd probably ask for more accurate test with 2 almost identically equipped bimmers [one RWD, one AWD] with the same wheel/tire/tire psi combo to be run on the same day with the same driver.

[3RDSECTOR]

Originally Posted by 02M3ForMe

Based on the 7:30.79 time, I'd say BMW M made a sufficiently good choice.

Odd that size, weight, ZF8, single-piston sliding caliper rear brakes, etc are still talking points when the actual realized performance is as great as it is. Of course, reviewers and owners have already told you for months that these things don't matter.

They do matter. If they didn't the M4 Competition would be faster than a ZL1 Camaro from 2016 but it isn't.

[02M3ForMe]

Originally Posted by 3RDSECTOR

They do matter. If they didn't the M4 Competition would be faster than a ZL1 Camaro from 2016 but it isn't.

Sure, and the car would cost another $10k at least. We'll see where the pricing for the upcoming CS/CSL lands.

These performance numbers validate the decisions BMW M made given constraints around the standard M3/M4's target price point.

[McLaren720s]

Originally Posted by 3RDSECTOR

They do matter. If they didn't the M4 Competition would be faster than a ZL1 Camaro from 2016 but it isn't.

If you care about track only performance, yes the ZL1 is faster! It offers better raw performance and pretty much nothing else.
I don't know why somehow the M3/4 has to be faster than a ZL1 to justify its existence, performance or target competitors.

Literally close to zero people in this thread care about how it compares to a ZL1. If we wanted a ZL1, we all would have bought one. I wonder why most of us decided against it?!

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by SeanWRT

Thanks for the link. Here is the google translating:

The BMW M4 has gained weight compared to its predecessor. The fast Nordschleife lap shows that he still drives to the maximum.
Jochen Knecht, Christian Gebhardt August 4th, 2021
Of course, you can still get upset about the overgrown kidney on the face of the BMW M4. Or you can take a deep breath and dedicate yourself to your qualities as a driving dynamics specialist. Because: design is fleeting. It's not performance. And he has plenty of it. This is already evident on the first few meters of everyday life. The competition model of the M4 series, now called G82, makes no secret of the fact that the body and chassis connections are noticeably stiffer. Other modifications that promote driving dynamics: wider track widths (1,617 mm at the front, 1,605 mm at the rear instead of 1,579 / 1,603 mm for the F82-M4), longer wheelbase (2,857 instead of 2,812 mm), wider tires (275 at the front, 285 at the rear instead of 255 at the front and 275 at the rear for the F82 -M4).

BMW M4 Competition Supertest
Achim Hartmann
Meticulous: Before the M4 is allowed to hit the slopes, it is measured. The scales show around 100 kilos more than its predecessor.
The new S58 in-line six-cylinder already tops the most powerful expansion stage of the F82 predecessor unit, the S55B30, at the start of the G82 model with 510 hp. Three-liter in-line six biturbo, water injection, 500 hp - we briefly remember the wing extremists of the previous series called M4 GTS. 60 hp is the performance plus compared to the F82 model of the M4 Competition. There has to be something going on at the Nürburgring too, right? Super tester Christian Gebhardt chose the following set-up for the Nordschleife: engine (sport), chassis (sport), steering (sport), brakes (sport), DSC off, traction control (level 5). The M driving dynamics developers recommend on the Nordschleife not to adjust the standard adaptive dampers in Sport Plus mode, but in Sport mode. And lo and behold: Despite its high weight (a good 100 kilos compared to its predecessor), the Competition scores with agility and driving precision. The self-steering behavior is largely neutral on the ring. It is only when you accelerate out of the way that there is a noticeable power oversteer, which can, however, be reduced through the targeted use of traction control. Wages for Work: A very solid 7: 30.79. This places the BMW just behind the Porsche 911 Carrera S (7:30 minutes).

You forgot (or missed) the conclusion they posted at the end of the article:

CONCLUSION

Although the current M4 has unfortunately become significantly heavier than the models from the previous series, M GmbH has got the maximum possible out of the concept in terms of driving dynamics. The lap time of the competition version on the Nordschleife documents this impressively. Despite its noticeably stiffer construction, the four-seater coupé also impresses on long-distance journeys in everyday life. The famous bucket seats play a major role in this.

[manuelf]

Oh man. It is fascinating, how so many guys can discuss the supertest result over 6 pages ... where obviously no one has read the test!

At least all the vague tire guessing UHP vs semi and the wrong guessing around lead me to this opinion!

Fact is: In this supertest, Christian Gebhardt drove the G82 with both tire specifications: PSC2 and PS4S!

So here are the times he did with the PS4S:

Nordschleife: 7.33,86
Hockenheimring: 1.54,3

His clear verdict:
"At Hockenheim as well as at Nordschleife the PS4S is only marginally slower. The performance gain mainly comes from improvement of the entire vehicle and not the option tires."

Additionally he states:
"Grip level on 1st half of Nordchleife of both tires is almost the same. While the PSC2 remains constant, the PS4S grip weakens slightly in the 2nd half"

Hope this info helps you for discussion another 6 pages

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by manuelf

Oh man. It is fascinating, how so many guys can discuss the supertest result over 6 pages ... where obviously no one has read the test!

At least all the vague tire guessing UHP vs semi and the wrong guessing around lead me to this opinion!

Fact is: In this supertest, Christian Gebhardt drove the G82 with both tire specifications: PSC2 and PS4S!

So here are the times he did with the PS4S:

Nordschleife: 7.33,86
Hockenheimring: 1.54,3

His clear verdict:
"At Hockenheim as well as at Nordschleife the PS4S is only marginally slower. The performance gain mainly comes from improvement of the entire vehicle and not the option tires."

Additionally he states:
"Grip level on 1st half of Nordchleife of both tires is almost the same. While the PSC2 remains constant, the PS4S grip weakens slightly in the 2nd half"

Hope this info helps you for discussion another 6 pages

Thanks for the additional info that unfortunately isn't posted in the online article substract…

So only those who subscribe to the magazine would have that information (I am a subscriber, but haven't received my copy of the magazine in my mailbox yet…).

I guess we can only discuss what information we have… Information that was previously unavailable is a bit difficult to discuss you know…

[manuelf]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Thanks for the additional info that unfortunately isn't posted in the online article substract…

So only those who subscribe to the magazine would have that information (I am a subscriber, but haven't received my copy of the magazine in my mailbox yet…).

I guess we can only discuss what information we have… Information that was previously unavailable is a bit difficult to discuss you know…

Yes. You are right. Please apologize. And it wasn't directed towards you. More towards people in this thread, which claimed arbitrary times of an G82 on UHP just to let the 992 times on UHP shine a bit more ... without knowing any facts and without mentioning one time how good the dry performance of a Pirelli PZero with NA tag is ...

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by SexyRoger

M4 gts did it in 7:28

911 gts did it in 7:24.

7:28 was the BMW factory time. For a more representative apples-to-apples comparison here, we need to consider the AM&S/SA supertest times, which is 7:37 for the M4GTS

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by MSpain

Forgive me if I'm a newbie but how can M4C be faster in a lap than M8C?
OK it's slightly heavier, but it is more powerful by 115cv, has better 0-100, better top speed.
Just asking.

Simple answer: Newest generation PSC2

[3RDSECTOR]

Originally Posted by McLaren720s

If you care about track only performance, yes the ZL1 is faster! It offers better raw performance and pretty much nothing else.
I don't know why somehow the M3/4 has to be faster than a ZL1 to justify its existence, performance or target competitors.

Literally close to zero people in this thread care about how it compares to a ZL1. If we wanted a ZL1, we all would have bought one. I wonder why most of us decided against it?!

Many of us go with the M brand because it is the summit of the ultimate driving machine monicker. BMW M engineers should have found a way to out engineer Chevy considering they had over 5 years to do it. I wonder why they decided against it?!

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by manuelf

Oh man. It is fascinating, how so many guys can discuss the supertest result over 6 pages ... where obviously no one has read the test!

At least all the vague tire guessing UHP vs semi and the wrong guessing around lead me to this opinion!

Fact is: In this supertest, Christian Gebhardt drove the G82 with both tire specifications: PSC2 and PS4S!

So here are the times he did with the PS4S:

Nordschleife: 7.33,86
Hockenheimring: 1.54,3

His clear verdict:
"At Hockenheim as well as at Nordschleife the PS4S is only marginally slower. The performance gain mainly comes from improvement of the entire vehicle and not the option tires."

Additionally he states:
"Grip level on 1st half of Nordchleife of both tires is almost the same. While the PSC2 remains constant, the PS4S grip weakens slightly in the 2nd half"

Hope this info helps you for discussion another 6 pages

Thanks for that piece of info.

It is important to note that the G8X spec PS4S is no regular PS4S. It is a significantly better tire than the generic one as was demonstrated in the Tyre Review comparative test. Kudos to BMW to have invested this much in tire tech for the G8X.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by 3RDSECTOR

Many of us go with the M brand because it is the summit of the ultimate driving machine monicker. BMW M engineers should have found a way to out engineer Chevy considering they had over 5 years to do it. I wonder why they decided against it?!

I think you missed his point. BMW makes luxury sports cars. There's absolutely nothing luxurious about a Camaro. If BMW REALLY wanted to chase a ZL1 track time they could easily have done so, at the expense of luxury (either that or keep the luxury and blow up the price point).

[McLaren720s]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

I think you missed his point. BMW makes luxury sports cars. There's absolutely nothing luxurious about a Camaro. If BMW REALLY wanted to chase a ZL1 track time they could easily have done so, at the expense of luxury (either that or keep the luxury and blow up the price point).

Exactly. BMW target competition has always been its rival luxury automakers such as Mercedes, Audi, Porsche (to a smaller extent), and maybe Lexus and Infinity here in the US etc. Those are the cars they try to beat because those are the cars that can take market share away from them.

Nobody is trying to beat a ZL1 because they don't compete in the same luxury sports segment. Not a direct rival, don't care!

The Germans have always given zero fucks about American muscle cars and how they fair against them.

[McLaren720s]

Originally Posted by manuelf

Fact is: In this supertest, Christian Gebhardt drove the G82 with both tire specifications: PSC2 and PS4S!

So here are the times he did with the PS4S:

Nordschleife: 7.33,86
Hockenheimring: 1.54,3


Hope this info helps you for discussion another 6 pages

The Hockenheim laptime is very impressive! Especially on PS4S!

Faster than the manual GT4 on Cup2 tires.

Porsche 718 Cayman GT4: 01.55,00 min (PSC2)


Mercedes-AMG GT 63 S 4-Türer (Cup 2): 1.52,8 min
Porsche 911 Carrera S (992): 1.53,3 min
BMW M5 CS (Pre-Production) (P Zero Corsa): 1.53,6 min
Porsche Taycan Turbo: 1.54,1 min
Audi R8 V10 RWD: 1.54,2 min
BMW M5 Competition (P Zero): 1.54.2 min
BMW M4 Competition (G82) (PS4S): 1.54.3 min
Chevrolet Corvette (C8) (PS4S): 1.54,6 min
Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 (PS4S): 1.54,6 min
BMW M2 CS (PSC2): 1.54.8 min
Porsche 718 Cayman GT4 (Manual) (PSC2): 1.55,0 min
Audi R8 V10 Spyder Performance: 1.55,2 min
Toyota GR Supra (Japan-Import) 1.55,3 min
Porsche 718 Cayman GTS 4.0 (Pirelli P Zero N1): 1.56,9 min
BMW M850i xDrive Coupé: 1.57,0 min
Audi RS7 Sportback: 1.57,3 min
BMW M2 Competition (Manual) (PSC2): 1.57.6 min

[solstice]

Originally Posted by McLaren720s

Exactly. BMW target competition has always been its rival luxury automakers such as Mercedes, Audi, Porsche (to a smaller extent), and maybe Lexus and Infinity here in the US etc. Those are the cars they try to beat because those are the cars that can take market share away from them.

Nobody is trying to beat a ZL1 because they don't compete in the same luxury sports segment. Not a direct rival, don't care!

The Germans have always given zero fucks about American muscle cars and how they fair against them.

This is true, I’d add the GTR in the same group as Porsche though. I recall the M boss when being asked about it saying something like “that car is giving everyone problems”. So BMW gave some fucks about that one, just didn’t have an answer to deal with it.

[3RDSECTOR]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

I think you missed his point. BMW makes luxury sports cars. There's absolutely nothing luxurious about a Camaro. If BMW REALLY wanted to chase a ZL1 track time they could easily have done so, at the expense of luxury (either that or keep the luxury and blow up the price point).

If it's so easy they should have done it. BMW engineers should be able to build a chassis that is able to complete with the Alpha and Alpha 2 platforms but they don't. CLAR is a solid architecture but it needs improvements. At the end of the day the M4 Competition should be solidly in 7:20s.