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      05-21-2019, 02:02 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by SleepingBMW View Post
I suspect that competition will be delayed if anything and perhaps a power/reliability issue was found at 500 hp.

Pure is consistent with motorrad naming conventions and has been positively received.

Could also be M3 base isn't competitive with Camaro and 911 or whatever they set as competition.
Really the X3M Competition still exists at 510Hp S58 engine .. ?
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      05-21-2019, 02:16 PM   #354
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Well I've been bitching for a while that this ZF8 business in M cars was purely a money saving thing and now it's out of the bag to be true.

The writing was everywhere anyway. Anyone praising the ZF8 saying it's ok to be in the M5 should be slapped. Up charged for a cheap commuter transmission so BMW can report profits while these electric models are in development but not being sold.

Here's the picture we have to hope for:

Electric cars take over as the 328i of BMW and make BMW a bunch of money so the M division can justify expenses for things like DCT, SMG, adjustable brakes Manuals, aero, etc. Right now the current M cars will be remembered as the worst and most out of touch philosophically with what an M car should be: Motorsport on the road.

Either that or electric flops and BMW does a 90s era Porsche style of barebones crap interiors to try to scrape back to normal profits.

Good News is electric will flop or succeed and become the Cayenne of BMW allowing funding for amazing cars or it will be the Lotus Evora of BMW and flop so bad BmW goes through drastic reorganization in order to recover.

Basically, everyone's complaints about cheap interiors, commuter focused chassis, and lame M tech is admitted by BMW at this point. The good news is we will be through the woods by 2025 for better or worse.

Either that or we all find a new start up brand inspired by 80s bmw and Porsche and the whole thing starts over. Seems to be the general industry trend. Look at Chanel purses. Used to be a fashion icon, now it's seen as, pardon, cheap Asian wear. The fashion elite moved on a long time ago to smaller businesses as Chanel makes clothes to sell for money instead of to make a statement.
Different priorities and all that.
Here's the issue in your analogy.

VW / Audi / Porsche / Bentley

Many brands for different buyers

Cooper / BMW / Rolls

BMW's competition is Audi, not Porsche or VW

BMW's future is electric and self-driving....AND FEWS MODELS BY USING MODULAR PLATFORMS

I imagine the purist similarly complained as cars began to replace horses.

How did that work out?

And as I type this Autozone was just upgraded by Analysts as recent reports show people holding onto their cars longer.
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      05-21-2019, 02:34 PM   #355
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Can anyone explain to me why do they need to have a rwd version of the M3 too if they have an AWD one?
Because you're hauling around all of the extra weight of awd when you don't want/need it.

Think of it like Porsche makings every Boxster buyer take a hardtop. We make a coupe too, we just assume you wanted one even though you chose a convertible.

Your assumption is that some of us wouldn't be able to tell the difference in a 3400 pound car and a 3550 pound car. Maybe they can just start selling the M3 with an extra adult. We thought you'd like a new friend too.
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      05-21-2019, 02:36 PM   #356
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Because you're hauling around all of the extra weight of awd when you don't want/need it.

Think of it like Porsche makings every Boxster buyer take a hardtop. We make a coupe too, we just assume you wanted one even though you chose a convertible.

Your assumption is that some of us wouldn't be able to tell the difference in a 3400 pound car and a 3550 pound car. Maybe they can just start selling the M3 with an extra adult. We thought you'd like a new friend too.
But, if the car is the current weight of the old gen M3 does it matter?
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      05-21-2019, 02:45 PM   #357
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But, if the car is the current weight of the old gen M3 does it matter?
If it could be lighter without the awd fluff, yes. And outside of the E90 to F8x, when has any BMW actually lost weight when changing to a new model? Even the dumb Z4 managed to get fatter moving to the G chassis.

I drove an M with no spare and lifetime roadside because BMW wanted to save weight. Now they're just going to bolt up awd and further f up their steering feel just because some northerners want it?
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      05-21-2019, 02:46 PM   #358
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If it could be lighter without the awd fluff, yes. And outside of the E90 to F8x, when has any BMW actually lost weight when changing to a new model? Even the Z4 managed to get fatter moving to the G chassis.
I guess we'll see what happens in a year or so.
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      05-21-2019, 02:47 PM   #359
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But, if the car is the current weight of the old gen M3 does it matter?
It would be lighter without it.
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      05-21-2019, 02:47 PM   #360
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If it could be lighter without the awd fluff, yes. And outside of the E90 to F8x, when has any BMW actually lost weight when changing to a new model? Even the dumb Z4 managed to get fatter moving to the G chassis.

I drove an M with no spare and lifetime roadside because BMW wanted to save weight. Now they're just going to bolt up awd and further f up their steering feel just because some northerners want it?
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      05-21-2019, 03:14 PM   #361
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SethC View Post
Can anyone explain to me why do they need to have a rwd version of the M3 too if they have an AWD one?
Weight is the obvious reason. BMW already has a tendency to understeer. Also, bmw transfer cases and reliability.

Personally, I'm excited for hybrid performance with AWD but I definitely get the RWD argument.

In fact I'm more likely to buy a new BMW M car If it's AWD or hybrid. I don't really see a reason to spend the money for the nu-BMW F gen cars.
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      05-21-2019, 04:21 PM   #362
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BMW should make the M3 as pure as can be, with three pedals. Make it the ultimate daily driving machine.
Then give us fans a M4 GC with the AWD and all the other goodies to get as close to what the M5 has. This will solve all the problems
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      05-21-2019, 07:05 PM   #363
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Some % of M3/M4 customers will switch to the M2 if the G80 doesn't meet their requirements. There is certainly overlap between the two markets and I would expect more if the G80 abandons certain enthusiast preferred options/layouts.
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      05-21-2019, 07:31 PM   #364
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Many 1M owners own F80's. Many 911 owners own F80's.

You never know when a job, family situation, other, will make you need/want a sedan that seats 5.

As to your point about BMW being a mainstream car company. When you have a division like M that enhances it's appeal to the SUV buyer - The image of sporty driving dynamics is extremely valuable. The image of the 911 helps sell other variants of Porsche. Same with the iconic M3. Makes the Msport X5 (that is advertised as the 'Ultimate Driving Machine') more appealing, because M coincides with Motorsport, making the Mline seem more sporty/aggressive. There is certainly a considerable value attached to that in the automotive world. There is a reason that every manufacturer has a (sporty) badge that can be given to other model variants, almost always derived from the brands sportiest vehicles.
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      05-21-2019, 08:25 PM   #365
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WWM3 View Post
Some % of M3/M4 customers will switch to the M2 if the G80 doesn't meet their requirements. There is certainly overlap between the two markets and I would expect more if the G80 abandons certain enthusiast preferred options/layouts.
I feel like there's some truth to this. That ///M2 CS is looking like a mighty nice option at this point.
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      05-21-2019, 08:39 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by seis-speed View Post
Many 1M owners own F80's. Many 911 owners own F80's.

You never know when a job, family situation, other, will make you need/want a sedan that seats 5.

As to your point about BMW being a mainstream car company. When you have a division like M that enhances it's appeal to the SUV buyer - The image of sporty driving dynamics is extremely valuable. The image of the 911 helps sell other variants of Porsche. Same with the iconic M3. Makes the Msport X5 (that is advertised as the 'Ultimate Driving Machine') more appealing, because M coincides with Motorsport, making the Mline seem more sporty/aggressive. There is certainly a considerable value attached to that in the automotive world. There is a reason that every manufacturer has a (sporty) badge that can be given to other model variants, almost always derived from the brands sportiest vehicles.
This scenario as we all know has adverse side effects for the brand. When everyone drives an ///M or so they think ///M becomes less prestigious. Just look at all the fake ///M shit that BMW pumps out. In the short term it makes them cashola but the long term will see just another ///M badge on a Camry. It's already happening.
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      05-21-2019, 08:40 PM   #367
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by WWM3 View Post
Some % of M3/M4 customers will switch to the M2 if the G80 doesn't meet their requirements. There is certainly overlap between the two markets and I would expect more if the G80 abandons certain enthusiast preferred options/layouts.
I feel like there's some truth to this. That ///M2 CS is looking like a mighty nice option at this point.
Yup. If wasn't gonna be such a pain in the ass to get one I might have gone for it.
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      05-22-2019, 12:40 PM   #368
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We do not know, my hunch is that they will still offer a manual since they (BMW) have intimated thoroughly that they will, but there has been an adjustment of sorts, where the Pure, Base, Comp has been rearranged and a variant might be eliminated, probably Pure or Base.

The insider said he will no longer confirm manual, but take rates on 6MT F80’s was ~ 30% in North America the largest M3 market in the World, so it would be asinine not to offer the M3 in a manual. The take rate for M2 has been ~ 50% so 6MT is doing well recently, as opposed to Audi dropping it from the S4/A4 where take rates were below 10% in North America which is sad.

IMO, no way BMW tells ~ 30% of NA buyers to check out the competition, it makes no sense to not offer a 6MT, but it does not hurt to let your feelings be expressed. BMW! Give us three pedals!!!
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      05-22-2019, 03:14 PM   #369
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There is absolutely no way I would buy the G80 with that boring ZF transmission.

Give me a 7MT in a CS or competition package with M drive where I can opt for the RWD option, and I will pay a premium for it.
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      05-22-2019, 03:27 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by seis-speed View Post
We do not know, my hunch is that they will still offer a manual since they (BMW) have intimated thoroughly that they will, but there has been an adjustment of sorts, where the Pure, Base, Comp has been rearranged and a variant might be eliminated, probably Pure or Base.

The insider said he will no longer confirm manual, but take rates on 6MT F80’s was ~ 30% in North America the largest M3 market in the World, so it would be asinine not to offer the M3 in a manual. The take rate for M2 has been ~ 50% so 6MT is doing well recently, as opposed to Audi dropping it from the S4/A4 where take rates were below 10% in North America which is sad.

IMO, no way BMW tells ~ 30% of NA buyers to check out the competition, it makes no sense to not offer a 6MT, but it does not hurt to let your feelings be expressed. BMW! Give us three pedals!!!
Agreed.

1. It seems like, partially it's a self fulfilled prophecy. Same as what happened with 3 series MT. Dealers just wouldn't order them, no availability to test drive a MT. So the take rate decreased to nothing and then they could proclaim "no one wanted them so no more 3-er MT"
2. Audi is a different breed of customers, usually the opposite of BMW drivers. I'd say Tesla will steal more tree-huggers from Audi then BMW. Also I've driven A4 6MT for shits and giggles - awful, glad they dropped it. Again they probably made it disgusting on purpose so no one would buy it and they could say the take rate is low.
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      05-23-2019, 06:21 AM   #371
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Parabolica View Post
There is absolutely no way I would buy the G80 with that boring ZF transmission.

Give me a 7MT in a CS or competition package with M drive where I can opt for the RWD option, and I will pay a premium for it.

Same here. Mines manual and I would never buy a sports car in auto. There's just no fun in driving. For that I'll stick with my daily civic as my beater
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      05-23-2019, 10:21 AM   #372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SethC View Post
Can anyone explain to me why do they need to have a rwd version of the M3 too if they have an AWD one?
Weight.

You will be surprised how much more nimble a car is without the additional 70-80kg in drivetrain components.

Weight is also the main reason why regularly tracked 911s are almost never AWD models despite the rear engine layout which inherently reduces front end grip.
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      05-23-2019, 10:56 AM   #373
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Porsche kept 911 as close to its origin as possible to know that it's a 911 regardless of its generation. M3 was up their with them in terms of driving experience and heritage. I did not understand their deviation from the original M3 to M4. Now I'm beginning to see why..

Maybe they decided to divide the lineups because they felt too much pressure to live up to "M3" name. Now I get more confident in my hypothesis as they try to make M3 the lesser M5.

I can tell the current M division is nowhere as enthusiastic as of the older members. They've been saying some shit like "hardware component doesn't matter. What matters is fine tuning." That doesn't explain why the likes of Albert Biermann or Bernhard Gobmeier pushed "like crazy" for new M engines every era, CFRP driveshaft, bolt on rear subframe and DCT. They understood that more focused hardware are what exploit the vast potential of an M car. Not tuning the shit out of a ZF torque converter.

It's such difference in focus and spirit of Motorsport that attracted customers for decades.. Not the stupid ads like M Town.
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      05-23-2019, 01:29 PM   #374
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Pure was a perfect name for a perfect addition to the M3 models. Something for everyone and similar to Porsche’s GT3/4 models. I wouldn’t think the idea is dead though, likely just a delay to not have too much going on at the same time.

I think the Nissan GT-R shocked BMW and from there an AWD M3 Model was inevitable. Performance matters for bragging rights and track times and my guess is that there is a significant pool of M3 buyers who put one or the other as their No. 1. criteria. It takes serious amount of downforce and lightness for an RWD car to make up for the traction deficit more downforce than most road cars can muster.

Personally I rate “feel” way higher than performance and I’m firmly in the purist camp and agree it would be a pity if slush box and AWD are the only options going forward.
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