[02M3ForMe]

Originally Posted by Habber

Outside of storage, there’s nothing the M8x does better than the Carrera but to each their own.
The 2 Carrera S I’ve had absolutely destroy any of my previous 6x M cars.

In what way does a 992 C2S or C4S “destroy” a G8x?

I’ve driven practically every 992 Carrera variant and “destroy” is definitely not the word I’d use to describe the driving experience versus the G8x. My view is they’re actually quite evenly matched, with some elements of the drive better in the 992, but absolutely within the same ballpark, and at exceptionally high cost and with meaningful compromises in other areas. Coming from the G8x, I never got to a place where I could justify spending the price difference for one.

I’ve owned multiple 992 Turbo S and that is the only non-GT 992 that feels (and is) properly head and shoulders above the G8x.

[Habber]

Originally Posted by 02M3ForMe

In what way does a 992 C2S or C4S “destroy” a G8x?

I’ve driven practically every 992 Carrera variant and “destroy” is definitely not the word I’d use to describe the driving experience versus the G8x. My view is they’re actually quite evenly matched, with some elements of the drive better in the 992, but absolutely within the same ballpark, and at exceptionally high cost and with meaningful compromises in other areas. Coming from the G8x, I never got to a place where I could justify spending the price difference for one.

I’ve owned multiple 992 Turbo S and that is the only non-GT 992 that feels (and is) properly head and shoulders above the G8x.

Personally, the 911 feels much lighter to start. It’s very predictable and has a much better steering feel. It also doesn’t feel as heavy as any of the M8x models. The balance of the car feels great too.
The manual transmission is excellent compared to the M. Again, the M for me is a good car but I don’t see any similarities in the two products.

The 911 has better brakes and a much better brake pedal feel. The power is much more linear vs the M delivery. The overall handling of the 911 is just so precise and predictable. The M is a quick car that has a lot of weight to it. It’s a great sports car with a lot of metal following it.

This isn’t an M bashing. After all, I’ve owned a bunch and just picked up a G87 and really like it a lot. I just never paralleled them to any 911 model given the fact that they aren’t even in the same category.

[Juanero]

On my 5th Porsche. Currently a 991.2 gt3 (and Macan Turbo). I enjoyed a Cayman, and I think it is great for a DD, plenty of space. Cayman really is all the Porsche one could want. You'll like it.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by BryanCO

Thanks for reminding us that you’ve owned Porsches…

Not sure why you think sales were down.

Because they are down and considering it is Cayenne and Taycan (which were just refreshed) isnt a good sign. Not sure why I put last year in my original post but it has been corrected.

https://www.carscoops.com/2024/04/po...ca-plunges-23/

Originally Posted by DFW_M

First, you got busted on your US sales figures .
The guy replying to you busted himself with the Macan outselling the rest combined in the US…

Why do you think the S58 is so much better engine than the 2.9 TT used in Porsches?
To me, the acceleration feels better than low down s58, the sound is waaaayy better than the S58. My Macan GTS 0-60 and 1/4 mile pretty much match my 6MT G80 in a significantly heavier vehicle. What is better in the S58?

Not busted on anything. They are down, currently and pretty significantly in the two largest markets.

https://www.carscoops.com/2024/04/po...ca-plunges-23/

I just dont think the 3.0 in the 992 is very exciting. It sounds bland, had a very monotone nature whereas the S58 feels much more racebred in nature and does pull harder at any point in the rev range. And the gearing on the G8x is perfect while the Porsche gearing is simply too long and takes away from the experience.
The Macan being as quick as a 6MT M3 is simply transmission and AWD. A Macan GTS is significantly slower than an M3 AWD.

[BryanCO]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

Because they are down and considering it is Cayenne and Taycan (which were just refreshed) isnt a good sign. Not sure why I put last year in my original post but it has been corrected.

https://www.carscoops.com/2024/04/po...ca-plunges-23/




Not busted on anything. They are down, currently and pretty significantly in the two largest markets.

https://www.carscoops.com/2024/04/po...ca-plunges-23/

I just dont think the 3.0 in the 992 is very exciting. It sounds bland, had a very monotone nature whereas the S58 feels much more racebred in nature and does pull harder at any point in the rev range.
The Macan being as quick as a 6MT M3 is simply transmission and AWD. A Macan GTS is significantly slower than an M3 AWD.

Geez. People are funny.

And your links don’t work…

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by BryanCO

Geez. People are funny.

And your links don’t work…

Porsche sales down globally 4%:

https://insideevs.com/news/715844/po...he%20new%20911.

Taycan sales down over 50%

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/comp...es/ar-BB1lnuUV

"Global deliveries stood at 77,640 cars worldwide, Porsche said, with deliveries down 24% and 23% year-on-year in China and North America, respectively."

[BryanCO]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

Porsche sales down globally 4%:

https://insideevs.com/news/715844/po...he%20new%20911.

Taycan sales down over 50%

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/comp...es/ar-BB1lnuUV

"Global deliveries stood at 77,640 cars worldwide, Porsche said, with deliveries down 24% and 23% year-on-year in China and North America, respectively."

Really, what’s your point? You changed your original statement and keep trying to show that you were right.

Oh, first paragraph from your link…. Which, at least according to Porsche, is supply driven…not demand driven which is what we’ve been talking about…

Porsche reports that its global car sales during the first quarter of 2024 amounted to 77,640 (down 4% year-over-year). The slight decrease is explained by the company as due to the model changeover, including four out of six model lines: the all-electric Macan, the new Panamera, the Taycan, and the new 911.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by BryanCO

Really, what’s your point? You changed your original statement and keep trying to show that you were right.

Oh, first paragraph from your link…. Which, at least according to Porsche, is supply driven…not demand driven which is what we’ve been talking about…

Porsche reports that its global car sales during the first quarter of 2024 amounted to 77,640 (down 4% year-over-year). The slight decrease is explained by the company as due to the model changeover, including four out of six model lines: the all-electric Macan, the new Panamera, the Taycan, and the new 911.

Sure supply is part of it when you're over indexing on global only, but why are the two biggest markets down so significantly despite significant increase in GE and strong increae in EU? Economic conditions, as Porsche states are part, and that is a sharp change to previous years where this was not the case even when they had true supply issues during covid.

"Porsche experienced a 4% decline in deliveries worldwide during the first quarter of 2024. This dip, totaling 77,640 vehicles, contrasts with the consistent growth trend observed in recent years. Notably, North America and China witnessed significant declines of 23% and 24%, respectively, attributed to various factors such as customs delays and economic conditions. Conversely, Germany saw a remarkable surge of 37% in deliveries, while Europe as a whole experienced a 9% increase.

My point is that, I believe there is a bit of a shift going on with Porsche. As someone who has always driven the brand, and still do (still my favorite brand), I think consumers are getting fed up with the pricing/lack of quality (which has taken a decent turn downward), and are also moving to other marques. A Carrera GTS for 200K is laughable IMO. We shall see how it tends, but I think the Porsche bubble of the last few years is starting to deflate.

[BryanCO]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

Sure supply is part of it when you're over indexing on global only, but why are the two biggest markets down so significantly despite significant increase in GE and strong increae in EU? Economic conditions, as Porsche states are part, and that is a sharp change to previous years where this was not the case even when they had true supply issues during covid.

"Porsche experienced a 4% decline in deliveries worldwide during the first quarter of 2024. This dip, totaling 77,640 vehicles, contrasts with the consistent growth trend observed in recent years. Notably, North America and China witnessed significant declines of 23% and 24%, respectively, attributed to various factors such as customs delays and economic conditions. Conversely, Germany saw a remarkable surge of 37% in deliveries, while Europe as a whole experienced a 9% increase.

My point is that, I believe there is a bit of a shift going on with Porsche. As someone who has always driven the brand, and still do (still my favorite brand), I think consumers are getting fed up with the pricing/lack of quality (which has taken a decent turn downward), and are also moving to other marques. A Carrera GTS for 200K is laughable IMO. We shall see how it tends, but I think the Porsche bubble of the last few years is starting to deflate.

Ok. If I understand this correctly, your opinion is that there is a shift among consumers re Porsche and that consumers will choose other brands due to price and quality. Sales data doesn’t support this but future sales data may.

If this forum is any indication, the desire/demand for the brand is strong. You even said that it’s your favorite brand. Consumers want a Porsche but, agree, the price and borrowing costs will put a lot of pressure on buyers. Something else to consider are is the price delta of Porsche to an alternative. $100k+ for a M3 also seems laughable.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by BryanCO

Ok. If I understand this correctly, your opinion is that there is a shift among consumers re Porsche and that consumers will choose other brands due to price and quality. Sales data doesn’t support this but future sales data may.

If this forum is any indication, the desire/demand for the brand is strong. You even said that it’s your favorite brand. Consumers want a Porsche but, agree, the price and borrowing costs will put a lot of pressure on buyers. Something else to consider are is the price delta of Porsche to an alternative. $100k+ for a M3 also seems laughable.

I don't disagree that 100K for an M3 is getting crazy, but they've been undervalued from a pure monetary standpoint since pretty much inception, and usually cheaper, gen over gen. Let's also not forget that even money aside, many of their engines have been consideably better than what Porsche was putting in even their GT cars - ie S54, and S65 were picked time and time again as better engines than anything Porsche was doing GT3 included in the IEOTY Awards.
I do think that for $90-100K (assuming an Xdrive car) you get 90-95% of what a $170-200K MSRP (assuming you're not paying an ADM on top of that) C2S/4S/GTS give you and don't think that 5-10% is worth that delta anymore - it used to be worth it when the 911s were still NA but these turbo cars, while faster, just don't deliver the same experience for me. Also, (as you know) you can get into an M3 with a manual and nearly 500 hp for about 80-85K, and for that level of performance and handling, it is a bargain and a rarity. To get a manual 911, you need to spend 2X that for what doesnt equate to much, if any, additional performance.

[fl1by]

Originally Posted by Pool Shark

I hope you find what you are looking for. Just keep in mind a few things: Porsche cars have significant ADM fees, so what you might configure/build on the website is not the price you would pay...probably add at minimum an additional $15k+. I was configuring at a Targa 4S, but the availability and pricing of that car was not in the realm of possibility. Second, I heard that if you are new to the Porsche family, getting an allocation is not easy. When hearing about those two challenges, I switched focus and picked up my M3.

Plus the cost of service and consumables are 3 times the cost of BMW

[Pool Shark]

Originally Posted by fl1by

Plus the cost of service and consumables are 3 times the cost of BMW

Oh, really--3x the cost of BMW?!? I did not know that--I suppose then I am not ready yet for a P car!

[Jimjamz]

Consider a 992 or 991.2 T manual. I have a G81 M3 and it’s the perfect 1 car solution. I also have a 992 manual T and it’s the perfect pair. The 911 T which mates the base engine with the manual gearbox is something that car fans dreams are made off. I have far more fun self-shifting at 30-50mph in the 911 than I do in the M3 Comp with the ZF8 and confected exhaust overruns. If you can only have one car though the M3 is the one to keep. The rear seated T has some extra flex over a 718 (I have taken people in the back row but not for long distances).

[bmwdrive]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

I think consumers are getting fed up with the pricing/lack of quality (which has taken a decent turn downward), and are also moving to other marques. A Carrera GTS for 200K is laughable IMO. We shall see how it tends, but I think the Porsche bubble of the last few years is starting to deflate.

Agree. I hear Porsche prices are getting another bump in 2025. Great cars, but everything has a price. I don't see another Porsche in my future unless prices come down to earth. I guess Porsche sees all the ADM's people are paying and figure they might as well keep that money themselves.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by bmwdrive

Agree. I hear Porsche prices are getting another bump in 2025. Great cars, but everything has a price. I don't see another Porsche in my future unless prices come down to earth. I guess Porsche sees all the ADM's people are paying and figure they might as well keep that money themselves.

Yes, Porsche has a supply problem, not a demand problem. People are still banging down the door to buy even base Cayennes and Macans. Sports cars are non-existent. They can charge what they want and people still buy, so why wouldn't they?

I think it sucks. I think many of the cars are no longer worth their asking price compared to competition. But...people keep buying.

[Ximian]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

I think many of the cars are no longer worth their asking price compared to competition.

I'm not sure I agree there. The MSRP of a brand new GT3 is 183k and it's reasonable to many people at that price. I justify that price as a pre-payment of whatever parts are going to fail during the new car warranty period with the car being driven the way it was advertised.

Where I have a problem is the fact that they're being sold for more than Porsche thinks they're worth and that's being enabled with intentionally lower production numbers.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by Ximian

I'm not sure I agree there. The MSRP of a brand new GT3 is 183k and it's reasonable to many people at that price. I justify that price as a pre-payment of whatever parts are going to fail during the new car warranty period with the car being driven the way it was advertised.

Where I have a problem is the fact that they're being sold for more than Porsche thinks they're worth and that's being enabled with intentionally lower production numbers.

That's MSRP. You ever configure one? They are all easily $210 plus.

What I also have a problem with is $170k Carrera S's, $190k Targas and Quarter Million Turbo S's. My 997 Turbo S, which was a 2011, had an MSRP in the $165k range. Similarly a 991.1 GT3 had an "as equipped" average price in the $150k-ish range. So for a GT3 or a Turbo S you're talking $50k to $60k more in a decade.

it's not that much more car.

[BryanCO]

Originally Posted by Ximian

I'm not sure I agree there. The MSRP of a brand new GT3 is 183k and it's reasonable to many people at that price. I justify that price as a pre-payment of whatever parts are going to fail during the new car warranty period with the car being driven the way it was advertised.

Where I have a problem is the fact that they're being sold for more than Porsche thinks they're worth and that's being enabled with intentionally lower production numbers.

Base MSRP is up $50k in ten years. PTS is up 2.5x. Porsche supply philosophy is demand -1. Porsche has build increasing significantly more 911 based GT cars from the 997 to 991 to 992 generations.

[BryanCO]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

That's MSRP. You ever configure one? They are all easily $210 plus.

What I also have a problem with is $170k Carrera S's, $190k Targas and Quarter Million Turbo S's. My 997 Turbo S, which was a 2011, had an MSRP in the $165k range. Similarly a 991.1 GT3 had an "as equipped" average price in the $150k-ish range. So for a GT3 or a Turbo S you're talking $50k to $60k more in a decade.

it's not that much more car.

Agree.

All 911’s are desirable but the enthusiast really needs to get to the GTS or ‘higher’ to get the overall performance and experience of a focused sports car. But the GTS or higher are just so expensive. I would go back a generation or two and for similar money as a T, you can get a much more special car.

[Ximian]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

That's MSRP. You ever configure one? They are all easily $210 plus.

What I also have a problem with is $170k Carrera S's, $190k Targas and Quarter Million Turbo S's. My 997 Turbo S, which was a 2011, had an MSRP in the $165k range. Similarly a 991.1 GT3 had an "as equipped" average price in the $150k-ish range. So for a GT3 or a Turbo S you're talking $50k to $60k more in a decade.

it's not that much more car.

Yes, I have. My build is $193,970 with the full carbon buckets, larger fuel tank, seat belts in yellow, fire extinguisher, and rear park assist (sensors). If I could actually get it for that price from a dealer, I'd buy it today.

I spent nearly the same in options on the M3. If someone wants to spec their GT3 with a paint to sample colored bespoke leather fuel cap and blacked out exclusive design bespoke leather taillights, that's their problem.

MSRP for a 2019 GT3 was 143,600 which is about a 40k difference between the two model years.

[DFW_M]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

Yes, Porsche has a supply problem, not a demand problem. People are still banging down the door to buy even base Cayennes and Macans. Sports cars are non-existent. They can charge what they want and people still buy, so why wouldn't they?

I think it sucks. I think many of the cars are no longer worth their asking price compared to competition. But...people keep buying.

I think you are stuck in the past.
I got 7% off MSRP on the Macan S within 15 minutes of negotiations.
I ended up getting a GTS.
There are plenty of Cayenne and Macan allocations out there and 2025s are around the corner.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by BryanCO

Base MSRP is up $50k in ten years. PTS is up 2.5x. Porsche supply philosophy is demand -1. Porsche has build increasing significantly more 911 based GT cars from the 997 to 991 to 992 generations.

Yes GT are driving a lot of sales now. 991 gen (.1 and .2) they made I think it was 25,000+ cars.

So far on the 992 you're at 10,000+, so they are producing the higher margin cars at higher rates. Of that 10,000, half are RS'.