[Sedan_Clan]

Aesthetically the Alfa is worse than the G8X, and I prefer the BMW's interior over the Alfa. I can't even say that I prefer the Alfa's drive over the BMW's…..plus there's no manual, which makes it an automatic rule-out.

[Bumpinjeep]

Originally Posted by basscadet

But I'd argue if you really care THAT much about performance numbers/stats and you are on a M4 budget, you should be looking at Corvettes which will smoke the G80 on any track anywhere, any day.

I mean, in a straight line, it wont.

On a track, it probably will but I haven't seen any real comparisons nor any track times, same day, same conditions, same driver.

[02M3ForMe]

Originally Posted by basscadet

How is this surprising? Go to the Rennlist forums and see how well-represented the Alfa is there as a daily driver vs. the M3.

If you care about numbers and stats, by all means...get the M3. If you prioritize the driving experience, want the real driver's car, get the Alfa.

But I'd argue if you really care THAT much about performance numbers/stats and you are on a M4 budget, you should be looking at Corvettes which will smoke the G80 on any track anywhere, any day.

The G8x is absolutely a "real driver's car". It's arguably the "realest" in the segment today. I've now driven the QV several times and, while it is a fantastic drive for a car of the F8x era (with the right tires), it is a less complete experience.

G8x drive experience:

-much more drive adjustability
-significantly flatter cornering
-delivers on "max performance" tires (PZero/PS4S) vs. "streetable track" tires (PZero Corsa)

G8x ownership experience:

-infotainment and tech features are a full generation ahead
-better reliability (second generation I6 turbo platform)
-far more mature and stable dealer network

If you already have a QV, no need to switch unless you need what the G8x offers (manual transmission, AWD, better tech, improved reliability, generally more convenient servicing options), especially since it'll cost you a minimum of $15-20k to do so. Otherwise, make the trade. And, if you're talking near-even money 2021 vs. 2021, absolutely no contest. The G8x is the far more complete offering.

[02M3ForMe]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Aesthetically the Alfa is worse than the G8X, and I prefer the BMW's interior over the Alfa. I can't even say that I prefer the Alfa's drive over the BMW's…..plus there's no manual, which makes it an automatic rule-out.

Did you get to drive the Alfa?

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by 02M3ForMe

Did you get to drive the Alfa?

I did. I liked it, but didn't love it. Part of my ambivalence was the lack of a manual transmission. Transmission choice holds a lot of weight in my world. I also felt like the interior was subpar even compared to my old F8X. I was just very underwhelmed. If I concentrate solely on the drive……..it was a fun driving car, but I wouldn't even take it over an F8X, so surely I would choose the G8X over it. It's not bad by any means and I know it checks the boxes for some people, but not for me.

[02M3ForMe]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

I did. I liked it, but didn't love it. Part of my ambivalence was the lack of a manual transmission. Transmission choice holds a lot of weight in my world. I also felt like the interior was subpar even compared to my old F8X. I was just very underwhelmed. If I concentrate solely on the drive……..it was a fun driving car, but I wouldn't even take it over an F8X, so surely I would choose the G8X over it. It's not bad by any means and I know it checks the boxes for some people, but not for me.

That's a very fair assessment. I was most impressed with the car on PZero Corsas. I drove a 2017 QV after the 2019 I wrote about previously; this car had more "standard" tires and, while it was much better than the super loose seemingly-modded 2018 car that I first drove, the car was less competent. The body roll on high G corners was a bit much for me. The QV kind of feels like a 4-door M2, from the size of the cabin, to the quality and spartan nature of it, to the aggressively-calibrated steering that makes the car feel like it has a shorter wheelbase than it does. It was good enough for me to consider trading in for it and playing with it for a few months while I ordered another G82 in a different spec.

Alfa missed their window with that car. Their time to make significant inroads into the performance sedan segment was 2016-2019. They finished development of their car after the F8x and arguably held a performance advantage. Now, BMW has definitively caught up and gone past.

[basscadet]

Originally Posted by 02M3ForMe

The G8x is absolutely a "real driver's car". It's arguably the "realest" in the segment today. I've now driven the QV several times and, while it is a fantastic drive for a car of the F8x era (with the right tires), it is a less complete experience.

G8x drive experience:

-much more drive adjustability
-significantly flatter cornering
-delivers on "max performance" tires (PZero/PS4S) vs. "streetable track" tires (PZero Corsa)

G8x ownership experience:

-infotainment and tech features are a full generation ahead
-better reliability (second generation I6 turbo platform)
-far more mature and stable dealer network

If you already have a QV, no need to switch unless you need what the G8x offers (manual transmission, AWD, better tech, improved reliability, generally more convenient servicing options), especially since it'll cost you a minimum of $15-20k to do so. Otherwise, make the trade. And, if you're talking near-even money 2021 vs. 2021, absolutely no contest. The G8x is the far more complete offering.

No offense, but nothing you wrote is a compelling reason for someone who is a car enthusiast and wants the most exciting and rewarding driving experience. The Alfa is the more engaging car, easily the better-looking one, is more comfortable in daily driving, and the dealer/service network is good enough. If you prioritize technology and "convenient servicing options" then you should be looking at a Lexus or Mercedes.

We are talking about the best sports sedans in the world and the Alfa is just a better car in this regard. Anyone who has driven these cars back-to-back who has any capacity to notice/care about vehicle dynamics agrees, just like these journalists do.

Sorry to play the snob card but that's just how it is.

[02M3ForMe]

Originally Posted by basscadet

No offense, but nothing you wrote is a compelling reason for someone who is a car enthusiast and wants the most exciting and rewarding driving experience. The Alfa is the more engaging car, easily the better-looking one, is more comfortable in daily driving, and the dealer/service network is good enough. If you prioritize technology and "convenient servicing options" then you should be looking at a Lexus or Mercedes.

We are talking about the best sports sedans in the world and the Alfa is just a better car in this regard. Anyone who has driven these cars back-to-back who has any capacity to notice/care about vehicle dynamics agrees, just like these journalists do.

Sorry to play the snob card but that's just how it is.

Flatter cornering, a more adjustable drive, and better performance on worse tires (implying significantly better performance on same-tier tires) don’t matter to enthusiasts?

This is a daily-use sports sedan, not an exotic. The standards are much higher for the ownership experience, so yes, the typical buyer of these 4-door cars expects more than just great driving dynamics (which the G8x delivers on just fine). One of the main topics on the Alfa forums is the frequency of dealership closings. On two of my test drives (both low mileage cars), I had a Throttle Control error pop up after spirited driving. One other test drive was postponed because of “misfires”. On the other hand, my G82 has been perfect over the past 14,000 miles, which has included spirited driving during a 110+F heat wave.

The rest of what you said is pure subjective opinion and preference. You hate the G8x looks, I consider a move to the Alfa a steep downgrade in street presence and visual aggressiveness and overall appeal. You think it’s comfy, I think it’s lacking in the amenities that actually improve livability (satisfactory stereo, HUD, surround view cams, proximity comfort access, etc). You think it’s engaging and rewarding and I agree - and so is the G8x, and I consider the higher G forces felt during accelerating, braking, and turning in the M3/M4 an even more effective source of engagement. The G8x is also available in manual and can be configured to be in max attack without completely turning off safety aids. You think the dealer network is good enough; there’s only one nearby dealer in my area, and if they close for good, the next closest one is 150 miles away.

In the world of objectivity and measurable performance, the Alfa is left behind by the G8x. That is fact.

No one cares what people on Rennlist drive; we have people that are missing out on the best driving M3 ever because of the way the front bumper looks, so clearly buying decisions are being made for reasons other than this car’s spectacular and consistently lauded drive.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by 02M3ForMe

Flatter cornering, a more adjustable drive, and better performance on worse tires (implying significantly better performance on same-tier tires) don’t matter to enthusiasts?

This is a daily-use sports sedan, not an exotic. The standards are much higher for the ownership experience, so yes, the typical buyer of these 4-door cars expects more than just great driving dynamics (which the G8x delivers on just fine). One of the main topics on the Alfa forums is the frequency of dealership closings. On two of my test drives (both low mileage cars), I had a Throttle Control error pop up after spirited driving. One other test drive was postponed because of “misfires”. On the other hand, my G82 has been perfect over the past 14,000 miles, which has included spirited driving during a 110+F heat wave.

The rest of what you said is pure subjective opinion and preference. You hate the G8x looks, I consider a move to the Alfa a steep downgrade in street presence and visual aggressiveness and overall appeal. You think it’s comfy, I think it’s lacking in the amenities that actually improve livability (satisfactory stereo, HUD, surround view cams, proximity comfort access, etc). You think it’s engaging and rewarding and I agree - and so is the G8x, and I consider the higher G forces felt during accelerating, braking, and turning in the M3/M4 an even more effective source of engagement. The G8x is also available in manual and can be configured to be in max attack without completely turning off safety aids. You think the dealer network is good enough; there’s only one nearby dealer in my area, and if they close for good, the next closest one is 150 miles away.

In the world of objectivity and measurable performance, the Alfa is left behind by the G8x. That is fact.

No one cares what people on Rennlist drive; we have people that are missing out on the best driving M3 ever because of the way the front bumper looks, so clearly buying decisions are being made for reasons other than this car’s spectacular and consistently lauded drive.

Meh, slap an F80 grille on the G80 and he would’ve been drooling all over it from every direction as well as laughing at comparing the AR to it. It still amazes me how BMW hurt so many of these guys feelings so badly over something as trivial as a grille. Meanwhile as a non-BMW enthusiast I think the G8X is best looking car they ever made. So there you go.

[SpeedyJ]

Originally Posted by basscadet

No offense, but nothing you wrote is a compelling reason for someone who is a car enthusiast and wants the most exciting and rewarding driving experience. The Alfa is the more engaging car, easily the better-looking one, is more comfortable in daily driving, and the dealer/service network is good enough. If you prioritize technology and "convenient servicing options" then you should be looking at a Lexus or Mercedes.

We are talking about the best sports sedans in the world and the Alfa is just a better car in this regard. Anyone who has driven these cars back-to-back who has any capacity to notice/care about vehicle dynamics agrees, just like these journalists do.

Sorry to play the snob card but that's just how it is.

That's your perception of how it is 👍

[EXE46]

Originally Posted by basscadet

No offense, but nothing you wrote is a compelling reason for someone who is a car enthusiast and wants the most exciting and rewarding driving experience. The Alfa is the more engaging car, easily the better-looking one, is more comfortable in daily driving, and the dealer/service network is good enough. If you prioritize technology and "convenient servicing options" then you should be looking at a Lexus or Mercedes.

We are talking about the best sports sedans in the world and the Alfa is just a better car in this regard. Anyone who has driven these cars back-to-back who has any capacity to notice/care about vehicle dynamics agrees, just like these journalists do.

Sorry to play the snob card but that's just how it is.

The mere fact that the Alfa can only be had with an auto box makes your entire post worthless. Any serious sport sedan at that caliber that lacks a manual option and have one relegated to only an Auto not even a DCT will alienate plenty of enthusiasts. Perhaps that's why they sell so poorly, it would appear the general enthusiast don't find it as special as the other cars in the segment.

Looks is subjective, the Alfa sure is no Ferrari nor great looking. I wouldn't call it ugly but it sure isn't a work of art style wise. The grill some find offensive long before even the G8X cars.

[Sedan_Clan]

So many brand new Alfa Romeos on the lot at the local Alfa Romeo dealership. Hmmmm! Seems the demand isn't so high for them. You can barely find a G8X, but you can have your pick of Alfa's.

[Jacky Treehorn]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

So many brand new Alfa Romeos on the lot at the local Alfa Romeo dealership. Hmmmm! Seems the demand isn't so high for them. You can barely find a G8X, but you can have your pick of Alfa's.

Has not been my experience. I scoured the country for a rosso competizioni tri coat 2021 or 2020 QV with carbon package...could not find a single one. Then I resorted to just looking for a 2020-2021 QV rosso comp tri coat with steelies and dark 5-hole wheels. Called on a couple and missed out on already sold. There were some other combinations out there, but no rosso comp tri coat QVs with 5-hole wheels near me. It became like an elusive mystery, every time I found a 2021 tri coat with 5 hole wheels- it vanished. I even had trouble finding a Quad near me to look at regardless of color!

I live in Florida, there's 4 or 5 Alfa dealers within an hour of me. A lot of Giulias on the lot, but no 2020 or 2021 Quads (and if they did have them, they were not the right combo). A lot of sprints, ti's but no Quads. Would have saved me a lot of trouble if there were actually QUADS on the lots near me!!! In the end I started giving up on the QV and turned to the M3/M4 because I could actually find some of them on lots.

My local dealer in Winter Park actually had a competition on the lot. I also have like 4 or 5 BMW dealers within an hour, and all of them had M3s or M4s actually on the LOT. I was finally able to check them out in person, and then my friend down in Miami bought one directly off a lot. So it started becoming more realistic I could actually get the combo I wanted in an M3/M4.

There's a nicely spec'd manual IOM green M3 on the lot for sale, USED with under 2k miles in Sarasota. This was near the exact combo I wanted, if I were still in the market I would have been able to drive an hour and a half and pick it up right off the lot.

[My3rdM3]

Originally Posted by Jacky Treehorn

Has not been my experience. I scoured the country for a rosso competizioni tri coat 2021 or 2020 QV with carbon package...could not find a single one. Then I resorted to just looking for a 2020-2021 QV rosso comp tri coat with steelies and dark 5-hole wheels. Called on a couple and missed out on already sold. There were some other combinations out there, but no rosso comp tri coat QVs with 5-hole wheels near me. It became like an elusive mystery, every time I found a 2021 tri coat with 5 hole wheels- it vanished. I even had trouble finding a Quad near me to look at regardless of color!

I live in Florida, there's 4 or 5 Alfa dealers within an hour of me. A lot of Giulias on the lot, but no 2020 or 2021 Quads (and if they did have them, they were not the right combo). A lot of sprints, ti's but no Quads. Would have saved me a lot of trouble if there were actually QUADS on the lots near me!!! In the end I started giving up on the QV and turned to the M3/M4 because I could actually find some of them on lots.

My local dealer in Winter Park actually had a competition on the lot. I also have like 4 or 5 BMW dealers within an hour, and all of them had M3s or M4s actually on the LOT. I was finally able to check them out in person, and then my friend down in Miami bought one directly off a lot. So it started becoming more realistic I could actually get the combo I wanted in an M3/M4.

There's a nicely spec'd manual IOM green M3 on the lot for sale, USED with under 2k miles in Sarasota. This was near the exact combo I wanted, if I were still in the market I would have been able to drive an hour and a half and pick it up right off the lot.

I am in Lakewood Ranch and found a very similar experience, I must say though, all of the M3/M4’s are also disappearing quickly, need to pull the trigger with no hesitation.