[Diesel power]

A lot of people need to work on their reading comprehension. These LISTS aren't articles or comparisons they're literally an alphabetical ranking of the highest rated cars. The cars are rated for a variety of factors, which you can read about here: https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...-we-test-cars/
There is def a subjective component to the ranking as well, but the F80 and G80 have done poorly in them from almost every reviewer. Most takes I've seen sound something like "Not as great as it used to be, but delivers supercar numbers". It shouldn't be so shocking that a car that is half the price and twice as efficient but delivers 80% of the performance and maybe even better engagement might be ranked a smidge higher than the M3.
It also shouldn't be surprising that a fast Honda may not be on anyone's "Mount Rushmore" of cars, but that the M3 is on most peoples', which is why we're all here obsessing over the latest 2 thousand dollar intakes that add 3 HP or Carbon Fiber spoiler.
Like others have said, if you like it, what else matters? I've been waiting to get my M3 since the E46 was unveiled, and mine is finally getting built this week. I don't care if they wrote an article saying "Avoid this car at all costs", when I pick up the car it's going to be a very emotional moment.

[ChrisM4]

Originally Posted by Trevorr

Its funny because the m3 is the "slower car" in that comparison but got first place. But the M3 is the lightest of the bunch and if anyone reads the review, it's all about engagement and variables beyond 0-60 times.

They sacrificed driver involvement by including an AWD system IMO. That and making the M cars too heavy for the sake of luxury/features. But everyone and their brother is on the 0-60, 1/4 time and technology train so BMW is following the trend.

On the flip side, not everyone track's their car. Its expensive! I track regularly and its a few thousand per year just to get on a track. So naturally, only a small percentage of people track their M3. C/D however, includes track driving with all reviews.

Sadly, I think M cars being a true driver's car is coming to a close. The new M2 weighs how much again?

Huh? The comp X-Drive is a monster on a track and turn in and acceleration out of corners is fantastic.

[bri1042]

Originally Posted by Trevorr

Advertised numbers that are all over the internet are for a base model GT500.

I have the Carbon Fiber Track Pack GT500.

There are no rear seats, recaros are standard with the track pack, the wheels are carbon fiber which are probably about 20 lbs lighter at each corner. Different springs.

https://lmr.com/products/what-is-a-c...ack-2020-gt500

They weighed theirs at 3,947 with 3/4 of a tank.

Per BMW, my m3 weighs 3,990...

Ok, you missed the point. The Mustang is a heavier car in general than the M3/M4. It's nice that you got the lightest weight version of it, but it's still splitting hairs. An average sized driver vs a skinny driver plus my Maine Coon cat in his carrier could make the difference with your two cars when it comes to weight.

The Maine Coon doesn't like riding in cars, though, so he'd like to be left out of it.

[Trevorr]

Originally Posted by bri1042

Ok, you missed the point. The Mustang is a heavier car in general than the M3/M4. It's nice that you got the lightest weight version of it, but it's still splitting hairs. An average sized driver vs a skinny driver plus my Maine Coon cat in his carrier could make the difference with your two cars when it comes to weight.

The Maine Coon doesn't like riding in cars, though, so he'd like to be left out of it.

You were the one that brought up the weight of the GT500? I didn't even mention it....

You missed my point, over the years the M3 has gotten heavier. So have the other M cars...

[mirob]

Originally Posted by Trevorr

Probably less than my 24 m3 Xdrive.

Even though its heavy, it makes up for the weight with the DCT, better turn in with the carbon fiber wheels, carbon fiber wing providing massive downforce and magneride suspension. All stock from the factory.

Probably? You should probably know if you're going to be on here talking shit.

Originally Posted by Trevorr

Advertised numbers that are all over the internet are for a base model GT500.

I have the Carbon Fiber Track Pack GT500.

There are no rear seats, recaros are standard with the track pack, the wheels are carbon fiber which are probably about 20 lbs lighter at each corner. Different springs.

https://lmr.com/products/what-is-a-c...ack-2020-gt500

They weighed theirs at 3,947 with 3/4 of a tank.

Per BMW, my m3 weighs 3,990...

All that and you are maybe lighter than a fucking AWD sedan...maybe. Read that again.

Originally Posted by Trevorr

You were the one that brought up the weight of the GT500? I didn't even mention it....

You missed my point, over the years the M3 has gotten heavier. So have the other M cars...

The Mustang hasn't? Has the Miata? You've literally just described every car ever.

[bri1042]

Originally Posted by Trevorr

You were the one that brought up the weight of the GT500? I didn't even mention it....

You missed my point, over the years the M3 has gotten heavier. So have the other M cars...

So have Mustangs. And Civics. And my cat.

[Trevorr]

Originally Posted by mirob

Probably? You should probably know if you're going to be on here talking shit.



All that and you are maybe lighter than a fucking AWD sedan...maybe. Read that again.



The Mustang hasn't? Has the Miata? You've literally just described every car ever.

You seem upset that C&D says that the Civic is a "better" drivers car. If you can't handle criticism about your car, then IDK. I like my m3cx, it's fantastic but there are more fun cars out there that have significantly less HP.

[mirob]

Originally Posted by Trevorr

You seem upset that C&D says that the Civic is a "better" drivers car. If you can't handle criticism about your car, then IDK. I like my m3cx, it's fantastic but there are more fun cars out there that have significantly less HP.

I don't have to be upset. I could just buy them. We all could have if we wanted to but we didn't. That's why this is Bimmerpost and not Hondapost. I don't understand why the pushback surprises you.

[skyline408]

Originally Posted by sdengineer

Ok, so let me ask you. If I offered you an G80 M3 or a Civic Type R for free and all expenses paid for the life of the car, which would you take? I suspect (and I may be totally wrong about what you value), that you would pick the M3 because it is a superior vehicle. When I say "superior vehicle" I mean in the sense of what a vehicle's purpose is ultimately.

Now if you say the Civic is better value for money, then I am with you. Doesn't make it a better car though.

This is generally an absurd conversation and shame on me for even engaging in it. No one who is shopping for a civic is even considering an M3 and vice versa. Maybe an M3 owner may get the civic as a DD or something, but it is highly improbable that one would choose a civic over an M3 based on this poorly constructed C&D article.

checking in here. I actually have both cars, and both were somewhat "free" to me - I had a spectacular year on stocks which paid for both cars.

That said, on paper the M3 is clearly better on paper, but the R has something magical when you drive it hard. It brings me memories of when I first got my E46 M3. Maybe its a weight thing, or the sublime gearbox, and perfect steering feel. I don't feel either car is superior because at this point in my driving career, I don't care for stats, but rather how a car drives and how connected I am to the road and how it feels to ME (again, my E46 had IT).

There area quite a few GT3 owners who have their pick of what to pair with the GT3 for DD duties, and a lot of them choose the R for a good reason.

With all that said, I enjoy both cars, and i'm blessed to have both and a few more other cars.

[BryanCO]

Originally Posted by skyline408

checking in here. I actually have both cars, and both were somewhat "free" to me - I had a spectacular year on stocks which paid for both cars.

That said, on paper the M3 is clearly better on paper, but the R has something magical when you drive it hard. It brings me memories of when I first got my E46 M3. Maybe its a weight thing, or the sublime gearbox, and perfect steering feel. I don't feel either car is superior because at this point in my driving career, I don't care for stats, but rather how a car drives and how connected I am to the road and how it feels to ME (again, my E46 had IT).

There area quite a few GT3 owners who have their pick of what to pair with the GT3 for DD duties, and a lot of them choose the R for a good reason.

With all that said, I enjoy both cars, and i'm blessed to have both and a few more other cars.

Other than the humble brags, I’m not sure what’s the point.

I had a new FK8 for 2+ years. Great car. Very few people would say the CTR is ‘better’ than a M3. Different cars. Different missions. I wouldn’t consider them as competitors.

[sdengineer]

Originally Posted by BryanCO

Other than the humble brags, I’m not sure what’s the point.

I had a new FK8 for 2+ years. Great car. Very few people would say the CTR is ‘better’ than a M3. Different cars. Different missions. I wouldn’t consider them as competitors.

Agreed that the post was not particularly useful. In a previous post I had already said the Type-R might make sense as a DD/companion to an M3, but the question was if you only had to choose one and money was taken out of the equation, what would people pick.

Also, who didn't have an amazing year on stocks in the last 1.5 years? Only perma-bears and short-sellers. Nobody here needs to explain how they bought their cars - we don't care. I'm sure we get the spectrum here of those who can barely scrape by to lease and others who buy all their cars cash, not even from capital gains but from un-earned passive income.

[BackOnBlack]

To see if a car is 'better' for me from a performance perspective, I find that the SCCA solo, ProSolo or time trial results are the most reliable, in stock classes of course.

For example, in 2023 Solo Nationals Finals, there weren't any M3s in Super Street and that class has been dominated by Porsches for several years now. However, in B street, you see the two Civic Type R finishing 6th and 7th 1.6 secs behind first place 2021 Supra, and 1.2 secs behind second place 2023 Corrola GR on the same Bridgestone RE71RS tires. A 2021 M2C finished 9th 2.1 secs behind the Supra and 0.6 secs behind Civics on the same tires.

https://cdn.connectsites.net/user_fi...pdf?1695755415

Also, another source is the time trial results. Again, during the Nationals finals, a street class 2021 Civic Type R finished 19 secs behind a unlimited class 2021 M3, which is not apples to apples, but still gives a data point.

https://timetrials.scca.com/events/2...ssions/overall

It is fun to read magazine reviews and track times, etc., but I think the amateur racing results are better indicators.

[skyline408]

Originally Posted by sdengineer

Agreed that the post was not particularly useful. In a previous post I had already said the Type-R might make sense as a DD/companion to an M3, but the question was if you only had to choose one and money was taken out of the equation, what would people pick.

Also, who didn't have an amazing year on stocks in the last 1.5 years? Only perma-bears and short-sellers. Nobody here needs to explain how they bought their cars - we don't care. I'm sure we get the spectrum here of those who can barely scrape by to lease and others who buy all their cars cash, not even from capital gains but from un-earned passive income.

I was just answering your question if you got both care for "free" Obviously I paid for the cars, but it was from a pool which I didn't have to do much to earn. If It came across as a brag, it was not my intention. Just wanted to point out that from my perspective, I didn't see both cars as one being twice the cost of another. I have both and enjoy both differently, but truth be told if I had to sell one right now, i'd probably be the M3. I just enjoy the driving dynamics of the Type R more.

[Ankarah]

More surprised that they have no g20 3-series in their top 10.
Always thought they were the ‘benchmark’ that all other sports sedans were measured.

[Diesel power]

Originally Posted by Ankarah

More surprised that they have no g20 3-series in their top 10.
Always thought they were the ‘benchmark’ that all other sports sedans were measured.

They were, but have not been since the F generation. That is how we got here in the first place. Most car reviews give the Best "Drivers" Sports Sedan spot to either the Caddy Blackwing Twins or the Alfa Romeo Giulia. Both have better steering feel and supposedly more bandwidth in their ride and handling balance.

[M4Tejas]

I quit this rag after Brock Yates tenure.

[Bimmerfun82]

FWD Acura 4 cyl wins best sports sedan over at C&D.

The magazine that set the bar for automotive journalism is dying

[SwankPeRFection]

The only automotive journalist anyone should be following is Chris Harris anyway. Lol