[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by Limegrntaln

The star rated tires are the best OEM sized tires available for the G80. How often do you get to call Michelin, and have them manufacture 30 different compounds for you, you spend 2 and a half years testing them on your car, and then have them mass produce that exact spec for every car you sell? None.

The PS4S Star is 1/2 Cup 2 and half PS4s. Find an off the shelf tire that combines the best of both of those tires into one compound? I have the Yokohama V107 Star on my 1000M wheel set, and I think thats a better, newer design than the PS4S, but, its still a star, and BMW took the time to test compounds to come up with the tire that worked best with their wheel set.

Porsche, Mercedes, Tesla, Audi, and others, have their own specific tires made for their cars. Do you think a standard off the shelf tire is going to perform the same on a 911, when the rear tires on the 911 are designed to spec to be able to perform with the weight of the engine on the rear axle?

Do you mean to tell me that there should be no difference between a tire that goes on the rear axle of a 911 or one that goes on the front steering axle? That'll work for a Honda Civic, or a Toyota Tundra, but its not going to work for a 911, or an M3. The 275/35/19 star is designed for the G8X, where, in that specific size, it has a different outer tread wear compound, than the 285/30/20.

The rear tires don't need a more wear resistant compound on the outer edge of the tire, because, its not getting plowed into a hard corner. The cup 2 rubber is on the outside edge of the front tire, for the weight of the car.

To help stabilize the car in high speed corners. Both the front and rear star tires, the tire carcass and plies are laid in a different pattern, and laid tighter for quicker steering, alleviating the porposing affect, when you jerk the wheel back and forth, in a straight line. The front and rear tires feel connected, and you don't get the feeling where the rear tires are reacting slower, alleviating the feeling of body roll, or the rear fish tailing.

Go with the off the shelf tires, all you want. Just know the tire is the same for a VW Golf as it is for a Corvette C8, as it is for a Honda Civic. All the while BMW spent millions of dollars over 2 and a half years, to develop a tire thats made for the weight, speed, and performance of the G80.

I bet 99% of g8x owners could not tell the difference between * spec and generic PS4S. The major differences in tire characteristics are felt when driving the tire at its limit on the track, not street driving. Any tire from the extreme performance category will destroy the PS4S * spec in all objective categories, except wet road conditions although some won’t be far behind. BMW’s design criteria weren’t all related to increasing performance because, if they were, then the PSC2R would be the oem tire. Also using multiple tire compounds from the inner tread blocks to the outer tread blocks is not something new and certainly not specific to * spec tires only. The PS4S * spec might be the best overall street tire for the g8x but it’s nowhere near being THE best tire for the g8x, in stock or non-stock tire sizes.

Car manufacturers and tire manufacturers have worked together for many decades developing bespoke tires for all types of cars, not just performance. The Bridgestone tires originally developed for the NA1 NSX had negative toe molded into the front tires and positive toe molded into the rear tires. Doing this improved the handling and turn-in performance but it also resulted in tires wearing out in < 5k miles.

[SwankPeRFection]

I just want to say that I actually have more confidence in the Indy500s in the rain than I did in the Michelin PSS tires when I ran those. Not sure what their issue was, but they actually could not push enough water away for me to drive the speeds I do in the Indys and again, felt a little vague and squirmy in the turns both dry and wet. I wanted to love them, but didn’t. Maybe it’s my driving style or my feel preference I want from the tires, but they felt wonky to me. Considering I replaced two of them due to sidewall punctures and when I later replaced all 4 and saw how bad outside tread chunking was chewing things up, I will never buy another Michelin again.



Take a look at the attached pic. This was an Indy500 that I replaced two sets ago on the S4 which at the time had a slight toe problem and hence the front inner scrubbing like that. That got addressed, but the reason I’m posting is to show that even with that much abuse, the tires all the way down past the wear indicators was still not chunking (look how crisp the outside thread edges still are) and even in this condition, the tire was still sticky and still had traction in the dry. Also, even at this level, the stability and predictability was still there in terms of what the rubber compound could do. That to me speaks volumes because I’ve seen tires fall off on ability to perform well before this type of limit.

[86zccrx]

Originally Posted by SwankPeRFection

I just want to say that I actually have more confidence in the Indy500s in the rain than I did in the Michelin PSS tires when I ran those. Not sure what their issue was, but they actually could not push enough water away for me to drive the speeds I do in the Indys and again, felt a little vague and squirmy in the turns both dry and wet. I wanted to love them, but didn’t. Maybe it’s my driving style or my feel preference I want from the tires, but they felt wonky to me. Considering I replaced two of them due to sidewall punctures and when I later replaced all 4 and saw how bad outside tread chunking was chewing things up, I will never buy another Michelin again.



Take a look at the attached pic. This was an Indy500 that I replaced two sets ago on the S4 which at the time had a slight toe problem and hence the front inner scrubbing like that. That got addressed, but the reason I’m posting is to show that even with that much abuse, the tires all the way down past the wear indicators was still not chunking (look how crisp the outside thread edges still are) and even in this condition, the tire was still sticky and still had traction in the dry. Also, even at this level, the stability and predictability was still there in terms of what the rubber compound could do. That to me speaks volumes because I’ve seen tires fall off on ability to perform well before this type of limit.

No offense, but I would never take advice on tires from somebody who drove around with tires in a condition that unsafe and is saying they were still performing well.

[SwankPeRFection]

Originally Posted by 86zccrx

No offense, but I would never take advice on tires from somebody who drove around with tires in a condition that unsafe and is saying they were still performing well.

If that’s all you got out of that, you missed the point.

[Berzerker]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

You do realize this is the same argument people make when they say "why do you tune a car, BMW engineers know better than the aftermarket" right?

BMW optimized the star spec tires for what THEY want to see out of a tire. Does that mean it's the best at anything? No. Does that mean it's the best for what I want to use it for? No.

I appreciate the star spec tires are a better match for BMW's original set of parameters that they set the car up with.

Also, here is TR's test for the Firehawk Indy. I'm not super impressed with what I see:

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests...y.jsp?ttid=235

I'm more likely to go with the Conti's over the Michelin when I ditch the Pirelli. I may stick with the gold standard Michelins, but only if I went star spec as the generic version gets beat by the Contis here. Plus I have an exceptional history with Contis on other cars.

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests...y.jsp?ttid=317

The ECS02 really does look like an interesting choice. It seems the PS4S does still edge it out in wet conditions, and considering I get a lot of rain in my area, I'd probably still go with the PS4S over it specifically, otherwise I'd try the ECS02s. Especially if the difference is a total, for all 4 tires, $170 (Michelin does hand out rebates like candy, too).

But I'm very curious to see how a potential SC7 (if our sizes ever get released) does vs a potential PS5S whenever that becomes a reality.

[SwankPeRFection]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

Also, here is TR's test for the Firehawk Indy. I'm not super impressed with what I see:

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests...y.jsp?ttid=235

It would be interesting to see them test it again. The article was written in 2018 and in the past few years, like around 2020 or 2021, there may have been some silent revisions to the Indy500. I say that because when it was still new to the lineup, they had a tendency to flat spot if they sat overnight, depending on temp and pressures you ran. This would be gone by about the 1 mile mark once you started driving, but some people complained about it. They no longer have this issue and instead have a slightly weird sensation if you run higher pressures where the car can feel twitchy (kinda like if you’re during with crosswinds). Here’s the weird thing… without changing anything, this goes away after about 500 miles since new. Maybe it’s the rubber heat cycling a few times and release agents working fully out, but once this is fine, it’s fine dry or wet, they again feel like they always do and no issues. 🤷*♂️

Also, I have had a couple of friends say they felt weird driving them initially because they tend to be fairly quiet as they start to reach the limit, so you get the tire slipping on the pavement sound, but you don’t get the crazy ass screeching associated with it. Those used to listening for that feedback and not using feel of the car instead (which is what you’re supposed to do) initially had probs with confidence in the tires. They’re not for everyone, but I’ve done a tone of SCCA runs in them on multiple cars and to me, I feel it’s pissing money away on Michelins to get like less than a 5% increase is supposedly traction… which based on my findings, I couldn’t justify. Now I will say this… if you’re RWD only, these may not be your cup of tea based on how you drive, but AWD, I stop it and go rain or shine, no issues whatsoever and it doesn’t feel squirmy like I’m rolling the sidewall in turns as the Michelins did. YMMV

[specced]

I’ve ran them on previous cars. They are good, very popular for autocross as well.

They are a little noisy, and treadwear isn’t as great as Michelin’s but I’d rate them higher than the pirellis for sure.

[kev7c7]

The consensus on these always seems to be great for the money. But if you've spent the money on a g8x I think it makes sense to spend an extra 50% on tires for an extra 5% of grip. Tires affect every aspect of the drive, and lots of people spend plenty more on other upgrades that won’t improve things as much.

[Burrcold]

Originally Posted by kev7c7

The consensus on these always seems to be great for the money. But if you've spent the money on a g8x I think it makes sense to spend an extra 50% on tires for an extra 5% of grip. Tires affect every aspect of the drive, and lots of people spend plenty more on other upgrades that won’t improve things as much.

You think spending 50% more on tires for 5% extra grip is reasonable?? Tires are expensive! lol

[FC4]

LOL this thread is great.

[SwankPeRFection]

Originally Posted by Burrcold

You think spending 50% more on tires for 5% extra grip is reasonable?? Tires are expensive! lol

Technically it’s ~ $500 more for Michelins, depending on some things, but still… that’s like a BM3 license. In the end, it’s not about being cheap and cheaping out, it’s about what you want to spend for very similar results. Everyone can pick whatever, it’s their money, but there are options and good ones out there. Anyone throwing their nose up and buying the most expensive because they think it’s the best there is, needs to probably educate themselves more. But then again, I always get a good laugh at people who always only go with manufacturer’s suggested options. I just can’t take that shit seriously, I’m sorry. It’s always the ones who don’t work on their own cars, probably paid someone to add mods to it, but say they know their shit. 🤣

[Burrcold]

Originally Posted by SwankPeRFection

Technically it’s ~ $500 more for Michelins

Oh I know, I was just quoting his numbers.

[kev7c7]

Originally Posted by Burrcold

You think spending 50% more on tires for 5% extra grip is reasonable?? Tires are expensive! lol

I think so, because the 50% here (aka an extra $500) in the context of the entire ownership cost of a G8x is not 50%. But 5% extra grip really means 5% better braking, 5% better traction off the line, 5% better cornering.

[Burrcold]

Originally Posted by kev7c7

I think so, because the 50% here (aka an extra $500) in the context of the entire ownership cost of a G8x is not 50%. But 5% extra grip really means 5% better braking, 5% better traction off the line, 5% better cornering.

Not exactly. It's 50% of the cost of tires over the lifetime (or ownership) of the car. Tires are a consumable so it's more than $500. Not to mention, 5% "increase in grip" won't equate to a better experience in every situation (are they 5% better in the wet? are they 5% better in the cold? are they 5% better once you get down to 5-6/32 tread wear?). Too many variables, but hey only you can say whether it's worth it for you. If you care about grip and handling so much, and are wiling to make sacrifices on other performance metrics (and don't care about cost), you are probably looking at an even stickier tire altogether.

[kev7c7]

Originally Posted by Burrcold

Not exactly. It's 50% of the cost of tires over the lifetime (or ownership) of the car. Tires are a consumable so it's more than $500. Not to mention, 5% "increase in grip" won't equate to a better experience in every situation (are they 5% better in the wet? are they 5% better in the cold? are they 5% better once you get down to 5-6/32 tread wear?). Too many variables, but hey only you can say whether it's worth it for you. If you care about grip and handling so much, and are wiling to make sacrifices on other performance metrics (and don't care about cost), you are probably looking at an even stickier tire altogether.

Very true it depends on a lot of factors. 5% here is a made-up hypothetical number suggested by another poster here. Hypothetically, if $500 gets me 5% better grip in those situations, I'm definitely paying it!

[Burrcold]

Originally Posted by kev7c7

Very true it depends on a lot of factors. 5% here is a made-up hypothetical number suggested by another poster here. Hypothetically, if $500 gets me 5% better grip in those situations, I'm definitely paying it!

Why don't you upgrade to a better tire then? You will get your 5% better grip for $500 extra by moving to say a Cup 2.

[Limegrntaln]

We can make all the argument we want about something being $500 less or only 5% more, but, the fact of the matter is, if this were the case, we would all be in the G20 forum, and not the G80 forum. We could get 90% of the car for 60% of the money, but, here we are.

[Burrcold]

Originally Posted by Limegrntaln

We can make all the argument we want about something being $500 less or only 5% more, but, the fact of the matter is, if this were the case, we would all be in the G20 forum, and not the G80 forum. We could get 90% of the car for 60% of the money, but, here we are.

I agree. But some people are saying that if you have the money for a G8X, an extra x% or $x in tires shouldn't matter. It does though...where does that end? If you have 6 figures to spend on a G8X, why not buy a Porsche, etc etc. The point of the original post was someone bringing up a very good alternative to the OEM tires, and they happen to be cheaper.

[Limegrntaln]

Originally Posted by Burrcold

I agree. But some people are saying that if you have the money for a G8X, an extra x% or $x in tires shouldn't matter. It does though...where does that end? If you have 6 figures to spend on a G8X, why not buy a Porsche, etc etc. The point of the original post was someone bringing up a very good alternative to the OEM tires, and they happen to be cheaper.

For me, of course its a better car, but, its not twice as much of a better car. I built out a simple C4 GTS and optioned the way I want it, its about $215k, and its not $100k better of a car. I want to retire in about 9 years, and after 20 years making military money.

Im on the back end of catching up with society, when it comes to retirement funding, so, I need to invest and save a little more aggressively than others to reach my retirement goals. So, with Porsches $20k "just because" price hike, Its not going to be in the cards, unless I just don't care about the next 9 years.

Plus, I tried to order one, in 2021 when I ordered my G82 and out of 7 dealers, I couldn't get an allocation for a build.

[Burrcold]

Originally Posted by Limegrntaln

For me, of course its a better car, but, its not twice as much of a better car. I built out a simple C4 GTS and optioned the way I want it, its about $215k, and its not $100k better of a car. I want to retire in about 9 years, and after 20 years making military money.

Im on the back end of catching up with society, when it comes to retirement funding, so, I need to invest and save a little more aggressively than others to reach my retirement goals. So, with Porsches $20k "just because" price hike, Its not going to be in the cards, unless I just don't care about the next 9 years.

Plus, I tried to order one, in 2021 when I ordered my G82 and out of 7 dealers, I couldn't get an allocation for a build.

I hear ya. I tried to order one as well and got the 2 year allocation run around from the dealers, so I'm still on the hunt for a relatively well priced 991.2 or early 992. However, I'm not going to lose my shirt to get it, and I also agree that it's not 2 times or even 1.5 times the car you get with a G8X.

[SwankPeRFection]

Originally Posted by Limegrntaln

We can make all the argument we want about something being $500 less or only 5% more, but, the fact of the matter is, if this were the case, we would all be in the G20 forum, and not the G80 forum. We could get 90% of the car for 60% of the money, but, here we are.

I think you mean 60% of the car. 😆

[Limegrntaln]

Originally Posted by SwankPeRFection

I think you mean 60% of the car. 😆

Eh, 0-60 in 3.8. 1/4 in 12.3 @115. same motor minus one turbo and one extra fuel pump. And maybe some rods.