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      05-02-2021, 07:44 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///AVM View Post
As far as the BMW lineup and BMW sacrificing overall performance in favor of refinement with the G80, that does indeed seem to be the case . . . but not the direction I personally want to travel wi th them.
Loving the civil and thoughtful discussion and HONEST assessment of the G80, ///AVM. The vast majority of G80 owner reviews are glowing with very little admission of trade-offs, which exist in every model. And that’s natural because owners just paid $70K-$100K+ for their cars and want to affirm that purchase, even if they’re doing so unconsciously.

I think you missed a nuance in my last post though. I don’t believe BMW has traded any performance in their design and engineering decisions with the G80. They may have eliminated some “rawness” which many equate to soul and excitement. That is where I think they are differentiating the M2 and M3 - both perform, the M2 marginally less so, and the M2 feels more like a sports car. As another poster said, the M2 feels more nimble primarily because of its wheelbase, but that doesn’t mean it’s actually any quicker.

The early stats and reviews I’ve seen indicate that the G80 M3 beats the F80 and F87 by the numbers and on road courses. Where the F87 probably outperforms the G80 is on an autocross track.
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      05-02-2021, 08:33 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by ///AVM View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Maboomba View Post
///AVM, have you tested a M3 with the 6MT? I wonder if you expressed your displeasure with the ZF8 whether your dealer would let you take a 6MT for a proper hour-long test drive and get a sense for how it compares.

I have recently test driven a number of the vehicles in comparison here - a M2C DCT, M2C 6MT, F80 M3C 6MT, F82 M4 CS DCT, G80 M3 6MT and G82 M4C 8AT. (I also daily a G05 X5 50i with the ZF8 so I know it well.) The DCT was an occasion. The ZF8 is an incredible automatic but it isn't a DCT. It is more refined, which has pro and con. If "raw" equals "soul" then you will find the ZF8 has lost some soul, even if it has not actually lost any measurable performance. Regardless, because I have a ZF8 in my SUV, I will be buying a 6MT in my sporty car on principle.
Thank you Mr. M

MT is a very individual topic . . . I have previously mentioned my past passion for the MT, as well as the basis of my conversion to PDK/DCT.

This is very subjective, but a vehicle's chassis plays SIGNIFICANTLY into my enjoyment of a MT. I am positive many disagree, but even the M2C was too 'big' a vehicle for me to enjoy a MT . . . so considering a MT in the G80 is an absolute no-go.

Chassis size/weight are important, but not the only factors. For example, engine mount, suspension, etc are also important considerations. Overall, this is why Porsche sport cars are among the few I would consider going back to MT. Still, PDK is so exceptional that I remain partial to it over MT.

What has become clear to me in short-order is that the ZF8 is not comparable to DCT. DCT is a MT without a manual clutch. ZF8 is, well, an automatic transmission that lacks the 'punch' or, as you suggest, 'soul' of the DCT/MT.

Per my above post to PLF, I have little doubt BMW engineers are capable of giving the ZF8 some punch/soul that is currently lacking in the G80 . . . time will tell if such will ever be their intention?

///AVM
M2C is too big for you? What's a good size car then? Porches? Bicycles?
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      05-02-2021, 08:33 PM   #47
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I’m gonna go on a limb here, the issue is that most owners don’t use the car as it was designed/intended to. Case in point the M3 is supposed to be the do it all sports/track day car/comfortable daily. All that translates to comprise.

So the owner that never tracks the car is alway some what wishing for “more” rawness/feel or engaging interaction. However that is almost never reached on the streets.

The owner that tracks their car is always wishing it was less heavy, more power, stiffer chasis and so on. But when they drive it home they forget that all that weight makes it comfortable, that chasis flex more compliant.

I like the OP’s points of view cause it offers insight, the only thing I can say is to anyone reading this thread is that everything can be looked at in a different light.

The weight that the G80 has gained is not an issue at the track the car rotated and was super stable under breaking. The grip is insane honestly I can’t wait to put on sticky rubber on.

On the street, yea you can feel some of the extra mass but again if you put this in perspective name other cars that can honestly offer 70-80% the track experience and 70-80% street car fun. I will wait and yes I owned 911’s previous F80 with DCT.

Anyway long post over I’m just happy they still make such a capable all rounder of a vehicle.
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      05-02-2021, 09:42 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Maboomba View Post
Loving the civil and thoughtful discussion and HONEST assessment of the G80, ///AVM. The vast majority of G80 owner reviews are glowing with very little admission of trade-offs, which exist in every model. And that's natural because owners just paid $70K-$100K+ for their cars and want to affirm that purchase, even if they're doing so unconsciously.

I think you missed a nuance in my last post though. I don't believe BMW has traded any performance in their design and engineering decisions with the G80. They may have eliminated some "rawness" which many equate to soul and excitement. That is where I think they are differentiating the M2 and M3 - both perform, the M2 marginally less so, and the M2 feels more like a sports car. As another poster said, the M2 feels more nimble primarily because of its wheelbase, but that doesn't mean it's actually any quicker.

The early stats and reviews I've seen indicate that the G80 M3 beats the F80 and F87 by the numbers and on road courses. Where the F87 probably outperforms the G80 is on an autocross track.
Mr. M

You are welcome . . . and likewise.

I have said it several times already and will repeat it once again here . . . the G80 deserves and will get my full and fair assessment over time. Time to allow me to 'mesh' with the G80, and time for the G80 to come into its own.

No secret, I am not happy with the ZF8 manual mode. Still, today, I opened my mind to ZF8 automatic mode and, honestly, it is quite impressive . . . who knows, at some point not too far down the road, I might be saying I really enjoy spirited daily driving with the G80 in ZF8 automatic mode?

At the end of the day, I am only after a visceral and enjoyable driving experience. . . I am not after perfect.

///AVM

Last edited by ///AVM; 05-07-2021 at 04:20 AM..
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      05-02-2021, 09:54 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by buckybadger View Post
M2C is too big for you? What's a good size car then? Porches? Bicycles?
Bucky

Like I said, many might disagree . . . there is no right or wrong here.

The M2C simply did not mesh with me coupled with MT in the manner DCT did.

Porsche sport cars agree with my MT senses, still, I have grown partial to PDK.

///AVM
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      05-02-2021, 09:58 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spacecowboy85 View Post
I’m gonna go on a limb here, the issue is that most owners don’t use the car as it was designed/intended to. Case in point the M3 is supposed to be the do it all sports/track day car/comfortable daily. All that translates to comprise.

So the owner that never tracks the car is alway some what wishing for “more” rawness/feel or engaging interaction. However that is almost never reached on the streets.

The owner that tracks their car is always wishing it was less heavy, more power, stiffer chasis and so on. But when they drive it home they forget that all that weight makes it comfortable, that chasis flex more compliant.

I like the OP’s points of view cause it offers insight, the only thing I can say is to anyone reading this thread is that everything can be looked at in a different light.

The weight that the G80 has gained is not an issue at the track the car rotated and was super stable under breaking. The grip is insane honestly I can’t wait to put on sticky rubber on.

On the street, yea you can feel some of the extra mass but again if you put this in perspective name other cars that can honestly offer 70-80% the track experience and 70-80% street car fun. I will wait and yes I owned 911’s previous F80 with DCT.

Anyway long post over I’m just happy they still make such a capable all rounder of a vehicle.
Thank you Spacecowboy

Great perspective

Indeed, the G80 is not defined by its size nor transmission. . . I look forward to further exploring ALL it has to offer.

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      05-03-2021, 10:00 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by weinerj100 View Post
Thanks for writing such a thoughtful unbiased review.

It's very timely as I just finally got some seat time in a G82 today for a test drive and, in my short time behind the wheel, I can tell you I agree with your ZF8 concerns.

As a disclaimer, I've had DCTs in both an E90 and an F82 and the transmission was hands down one of the best parts of the overall experience to me (I'm a manual shifter 90% of the time).

I knew the ZF8 in the G8x wouldn't feel like the DCT, but it was more of a letdown than I expected. As a comparison, my current daily driver is an Alfa Giulia QV which also has a ZF8. So, I expected the feel to be similar in the G82. However, unfortunately that's not what I experienced. In the Alfa you still get quick shifts that are accompanied by a kick in the pants upon up shift. In my limited experience in the G82, even on the most aggressive setting, the transmission didn't provide that same visceral feel.

All that said, it's more likely than not that I will buy a G80 before my Alfa warranty is up next year. However, it's not a sure fire slam dunk like I hoped it would be.


I 100% agree with as I "had" alfa QV . If I want the m3c. I would kept my alfa.

But for me it was the 6mt I wanted.
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      05-03-2021, 11:29 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by ///AVM View Post
In fairness, I need more seat time before drawing any firm conclusions on not only the S58/ZF8, but the entire driving/performance experience offered by the G80 M3C.

I must say, BMW engineers know how to engineer cars, and the M3C is engineered wonderfully. However, I am not sure the M3C will live up to my performance expectations of an ///M icon?

I am sitting on top of the fence currently and do not know which direction more seat time will take me? If pressured to draw conclusion at this very moment, I would lean toward stating the M3C has deviated too far from being a driver's car for my liking, and more into the cruiser realm. . . and it will take a small miracle for me to embrace the ZF8.

To try and summarize things down to a few bullet points:

- S58 delivers power. Moves M3C chassis quick and fast.
- S58 sounds fantastic wrung-out, as well as in terms of exhaust note.
- ZF8 has too many gears and shifts are extremely disappointing..
- M3C chassis is too big/heavy and has nowhere to hide.

///AVM

P.S. A couple of my favorite pics
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      05-03-2021, 12:11 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by 2011ninja View Post
Holy smack!

That blue looks awesome!!!
Thank you Ninja . . . very dynamic according to light.

///AVM
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      05-05-2021, 01:00 PM   #54
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Small Miracle Delivered

Going back to the beginning of this thread, my overall high praise for the G80 M3C was, unfortunately, overwhelmed by one major disappointment . . . soft and slow ZF8 manual mode shifts, particularly high in the rev range.

I felt and stated it would take a small miracle for me to accept and enjoy the ZF8 manual mode in its factory form, e.g., BMW update to ZF8 transmission programming. . . well, it appears a miracle has been delivered.

After driving a few miles in start-up (COMFORT) mode to let the car warm up, M1 activated with settings previously noted (including S3 transmission). As per usual, the shifts were soft, slow and disappointing.

For whatever reason, up until now, I never sought to visually confirm S3 setting in the instrument cluster, e.g., three out of three bars. Today, however, the transmission setting caught my eye and I noticed only one bar was lit. I activated M2 - also set to S3 - and, again, only one bar was lit. I went back into the M1/2 settings and confirmed S3 setting for each. Hmmmm?

I then scrolled to the bottom of the M1/2 setting and ‘Reset’ both. Commenced driving, activated M1, confirmed three out of three bars in instrument cluster and . . . BOOOOOM! The small miracle I was after occurred!! The shifts instantly became aggressive and quick throughout the rev range. Activated M2, confirmed three bars and, once again, shifts were on par with expectation.

For those wondering, all other M1/M2 functions were activated according to intended settings. I could always see the yellow icon in the instrument cluster light up with MDM activation. Center console exhaust button always lit (green). Also, the infotainment home screen always confirmed M1/2 Engine, Suspension, Steering and Brake settings.

For whatever reason, the Transmission setting is not displayed in the infotainment home screen; only as a small icon in the instrument cluster. This represents a primary reason I never noticed it was not properly activated until now. I simply never took notice of how many bars were lit in the small icon.

I have absolutely no idea how or why my original M1/2 transmission (S3) settings were not being activated up until now? Or why the M1/2 ‘took effect’ after re-setting them?? Does not seem to matter at this point.

I had a single major problem with the G80 that was robbing me of the performance experience I had grown accustomed and expected. The problem appears solved, and I am really quite ecstatic . . . as though a small miracle occurred.

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      05-05-2021, 01:05 PM   #55
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Congrats ///AVM! That is awesome to hear. I dislike the idea of having the same transmission in my sports car as I do in my SUV - hence why I have ordered a 6MT - but the ZF8 really is an impressive piece of technology. Even on my X5 50i when I'm in Sports Plus mode it's able to rip off some pretty quick shifts and emit some nice blaps/burbles from the exhaust.
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      05-05-2021, 01:16 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Maboomba View Post
Congrats ///AVM! That is awesome to hear. I dislike the idea of having the same transmission in my sports car as I do in my SUV - hence why I have ordered a 6MT - but the ZF8 really is an impressive piece of technology. Even on my X5 50i when I'm in Sports Plus mode it's able to rip off some pretty quick shifts and emit some nice blaps/burbles from the exhaust.
Honestly it seems like the answer is always 6MT.
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      05-05-2021, 01:20 PM   #57
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Happy to hear it's worked out for you AVM.

I know you are on BM spacers but what are you on suspension? You said springs were beginning to settle in another post. Did you mean the OE?

PB would have my choice after TB.
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      05-05-2021, 01:22 PM   #58
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AVM

Thanks for all your insight and honest feedback. Glad it was a minor "glitch in the matrix" with whatever didn't trigger the correct transmission setting. To be honest, you had me kind of worried that the "around town and to work" experience would be a bit too docile. While I have yet to drive a G80, this makes me (and im sure many others) feel much better. I was never upset about the bigger grilles, weight, etc....loss of DCT was always my biggest concern. Thanks again.
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      05-05-2021, 01:33 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by CanuckM View Post
Happy to hear it's worked out for you AVM.

I know you are on BM spacers but what are you on suspension? You said springs were beginning to settle in another post. Did you mean the OE?

PB would have my choice after TB.
Thank you M

I am on OEM suspension and things have begun to settle. If the front settles just another 5-10 mm I will be very happy, and I fully anticipate it will given a little more time.

M2C has same issue - as it seems is true of all ///M cars these days - and I had MP coilovers placed. After they settled I felt the gaps were too closed (slammed look).

Yes, I could have had the coilovers adjusted to a taller setting, but I knew I was getting the M3C and just lived with it until trade-in.

No plans to get MP-HAS in the M3C. The spacers do an amazing job of 'filling things out,' and the natural settling of the suspension will get things just about right for my taste.

TB is another great color . . . so many to choose from.

///AVM
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      05-05-2021, 01:41 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by OF Hero View Post
AVM

Thanks for all your insight and honest feedback. Glad it was a minor "glitch in the matrix" with whatever didn't trigger the correct transmission setting. To be honest, you had me kind of worried that the "around town and to work" experience would be a bit too docile. While I have yet to drive a G80, this makes me (and im sure many others) feel much better. I was never upset about the bigger grilles, weight, etc....loss of DCT was always my biggest concern. Thanks again.
You are welcome Hero . . . I am with you 100%.

Not much a fan of the G80/82 design architecture; bought it for the performance experience, a huge part of which pertains to manually controlling shift points and the shift character itself.

So, when the ZF8 manual mode shifts were so disappointing after some 600 miles, I was really bummed out . . . incase not obvious in this thread

I have no idea what the 'glitch' entailed, but feel rejuvenated for not only stumbling across the source of the problem, but also an easy solution to the problem . . . that might help a fellow enthusiast, such as yourself, in the future.

Best

///AVM
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      05-10-2021, 09:00 AM   #61
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G80 M3C Handling Coming Into Its Own

As I stated previously, it takes time to get to know a car AND it takes a car time to come into its own. In latter regard, two things have always stood out to me as time moves on with performance-oriented vehicles . . .

Exhaust note usually gets a bit louder and deeper, but this is something that takes a few thousand miles. As it stands, the G80 M3C sounds just fine to me, and I am more interested in the acoustics coming from under the hood than out the tailpipes with turbo engines. Specifically, how the engine ‘sings’ when wrung out . . . I personally love the G80 song.

A second performance aspect that takes some time to develop is ‘handling;’ how steering and suspension come together with the chassis.

Out of the box it was immediately apparent that the G80 adaptive suspension is far superior to the M2C fixed suspension when it comes to real-world roadways. COMOFRT mode actually quite comfortable. SPORT/SPORT PLUS modes transition you into the M2C realm in terms of ride ‘firmness.’

Impressions over the initial 600 miles, or so, were that the G80 had a difficult time hiding its mass during spirited daily driving, e.g., with aggressive turns. The steering and suspension were not loose, but the vehicles mass was revealed in chassis roll.

Now, at around the 1,000-mile mark, the G80 handling has begun to come into its own. No doubt, a component of handling perception relates to my simply becoming familiar with the vehicle. However, the suspension has indeed settled quite a bit and the steering . . . well, steering is so subjective, I will just say the steering feels great.

Overall, the G80 handling through spirited turns has really begun to come into its own over the past 400 miles, or so; it has really developed a nice sense of balance.

Does the G80 compare to my 718 CGTS? Of course not . . . just in case anyone does not understand the difference between a Porsche mid- or rear-engine sport car and the ///M car sporty sedan/coupe chassis. How about the M2C? Not quite, but close . . . inching closer with each passing day.

Of note. . . I had spacers placed almost immediately upon taking delivery, so I have no valid opinion regarding the impact spacers have on handling compared to stock setup.

Finally, seats are a HUGE factor when it comes to spirited driving experience and, in particular, handling perception. In such regard, the CF bucket seats are simply amazing in how secure and connected they make you feel to the vehicle. The M2C seats were great but did not ‘hug’ or secure you nearly to the extent of the G80 CF bucket seats.

Further, the M2C seats seemed to be quite limited in how low they could be adjusted; always felt like I was sitting ‘high’ in the cabin and over the road. The CF bucket seats offer a much lower seating profile in the cabin which, in turn, gives you a nice sense of being seated closer to the road.

In terms of comfort . . . I rarely have a passenger BUT, when along for the ride, my wife never stops talking about how much she loves her seat.

///AVM

Last edited by ///AVM; 05-10-2021 at 09:34 AM..
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      05-10-2021, 09:06 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///AVM View Post
As I stated previously, it takes time to get to know a car AND it takes a car time to come into its own. In latter regard, two things have always stood out to me as time moves on with performance-oriented vehicles . . .

Exhaust note usually gets a bit louder and deeper, but this is something that takes a few thousand miles. As it stands, the G80 M3C sounds just fine to me, and I am more interested in the acoustics coming from under the hood than out the tailpipes with turbo engines. Specifically, how the engine ‘sings’ when wrung out . . . I personally love the G80 song.

A second performance aspect that takes some time to develop is ‘handling;’ how steering and suspension come together with the chassis.

Out of the box it was immediately apparent that the G80 adaptive suspension is far superior to the M2C fixed suspension when it comes to real-world roadways. COMOFRT mode actually quite comfortable. SPORT/SPORT PLUS modes transition you into the M2C realm in terms of ride ‘firmness.’

Impressions over the initial 600 miles, or so, were that the G80 had a difficult time hiding its mass during spirited daily driving, e.g., with aggressive turns. The steering and suspension were not loose, but the vehicles mass was revealed in chassis roll.

Now, at around the 1,000-mile mark, I have begun to experience the G80 handling start to come into its own. Non doubt, a component of handling perception relates to my simply becoming familiar with the vehicle. However, the suspension has indeed settled quite a bit and the steering . . . well, steering is so subjective, I will just say the steering feels great.

Overall, the G80 handling through spirited turns has really begun to come into its own over the past 400 miles, or so; it has really developed a nice sense of balance.

Does the G80 compare to my 718 CGTS? Of course not . . . just in case anyone does not understand the difference between a Porsche mid- or rear-engine sport car and the ///M car sporty sedan/coupe chassis. How about the M2C? Not quite, but close . . . inching closer with each passing day.

Of note. . . I had spacers placed almost immediately upon taking delivery, so I have no valid opinion regarding the impact spacers have on handling compared to stock setup.

Finally, seats are a HUGE factor when it comes to spirited driving experience and, in particular, handling perception. In such regard, the CF bucket seats are simply amazing in how secure and connected they make you feel to the vehicle. The M2C seats were great but did not ‘hug’ or secure you nearly to the extent of the G80 CF bucket seats.

Further, the M2C seats seemed to be quite limited in how low they could be adjusted; always felt like I was sitting ‘high’ in the cabin and over the road. The CF bucket seats offer a much lower seating profile in the cabin which, in turn, gives you a nice sense of being seated closer to the road. In terms of comfort . . . I rarely have a passenger BUT, when along for the ride, my wife never stops talking about how much she loves her seat.

///AVM
Just want to hop in and thank you for posting these thoughts - they're helping keep me sane while I wait for mine to be delivered.
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      05-10-2021, 09:17 AM   #63
///AVM
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Originally Posted by dialogical View Post
Just want to hop in and thank you for posting these thoughts - they're helping keep me sane while I wait for mine to be delivered.
You are welcome Dialogical . . .

Do not worry, the steering is not 'numb' . . . whatever that means?

G80 is a GREAT car . . . forget all the forum 'noise.'

///AVM

Last edited by ///AVM; 05-10-2021 at 09:31 AM..
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      05-10-2021, 09:59 AM   #64
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Really enjoyed reading all of this - thanks for putting the time in to write it all :-)
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      05-10-2021, 10:10 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by snarkeygolbin View Post
Really enjoyed reading all of this - thanks for putting the time in to write it all :-)
You got it snarky . . . thank you.

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      05-10-2021, 11:15 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by ///AVM View Post
Going back to the beginning of this thread, my overall high praise for the G80 M3C was, unfortunately, overwhelmed by one major disappointment . . . soft and slow ZF8 manual mode shifts, particularly high in the rev range.

I felt and stated it would take a small miracle for me to accept and enjoy the ZF8 manual mode in its factory form, e.g., BMW update to ZF8 transmission programming. . . well, it appears a miracle has been delivered.

After driving a few miles in start-up (COMFORT) mode to let the car warm up, M1 activated with settings previously noted (including S3 transmission). As per usual, the shifts were soft, slow and disappointing.

For whatever reason, up until now, I never sought to visually confirm S3 setting in the instrument cluster, e.g., three out of three bars. Today, however, the transmission setting caught my eye and I noticed only one bar was lit. I activated M2 - also set to S3 - and, again, only one bar was lit. I went back into the M1/2 settings and confirmed S3 setting for each. Hmmmm?

I then scrolled to the bottom of the M1/2 setting and ‘Reset’ both. Commenced driving, activated M1, confirmed three out of three bars in instrument cluster and . . . BOOOOOM! The small miracle I was after occurred!! The shifts instantly became aggressive and quick throughout the rev range. Activated M2, confirmed three bars and, once again, shifts were on par with expectation.

For those wondering, all other M1/M2 functions were activated according to intended settings. I could always see the yellow icon in the instrument cluster light up with MDM activation. Center console exhaust button always lit (green). Also, the infotainment home screen always confirmed M1/2 Engine, Suspension, Steering and Brake settings.

For whatever reason, the Transmission setting is not displayed in the infotainment home screen; only as a small icon in the instrument cluster. This represents a primary reason I never noticed it was not properly activated until now. I simply never took notice of how many bars were lit in the small icon.

I have absolutely no idea how or why my original M1/2 transmission (S3) settings were not being activated up until now? Or why the M1/2 ‘took effect’ after re-setting them?? Does not seem to matter at this point.

I had a single major problem with the G80 that was robbing me of the performance experience I had grown accustomed and expected. The problem appears solved, and I am really quite ecstatic . . . as though a small miracle occurred.

///AVM
So glad to hear this, I was concerned about your post from last week. Since I know these cars are not cheap and to buy one and not be fully satisfied would be a huge disservice. Bravo....enjoy
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