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      04-11-2021, 09:40 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
I was looking for a 100-200 time, but I now understand it's derived from the 0-100 and 0-200 times ��

I wasn't thinking of 0-100 when I mentioned gearing, but the 100-200 times (as that was the ET we where discussing).

From the gear ratio charts we can see that the F82 GTS have to start the 100-200 sprint at 4500rpm in 3rd, changing to 4th at just around 150km/h, dropping down to 5000rpm and revving to 7000rpm at 200km/h in 4th.

The G82 Comp start at 6000rpm in 3rd, changing to 4th at just around 125km/h, dropping down to 5800-6000rpm in 4th, changing up to 5th at just around 165km/h, dropping down to 6000rpm in 5th and reaching 200km/h at 7000rpm in 5th.

How much you actually gain from this shorter rev band in each gear I couldn't say, but probably more than the time lost on that extra gearchange.

For the S55 in the GTS it doesn't seem ideal to drop down to 4500rpm as it only has 400hp there (according to ABS dynograph).

The S58 has a slightly flatter top end curve from 5-7k, but it seem that you wouldn't want to drop much below 6k on shifts on that either. But at least it has over 500hp from 5000-7200rpm, so even dropping down to 5k still gives you more than 500hp.
The S58 makes 400hp at 4000rpm and roughly 450hp at 4500rpm.

I think the better acceleration times for the G82 is a combination of more power (522 vs 492 according to the mag) and closer gearing. Perhaps biggest contributor is the gearing, which is more of a disadvantage for the F82 than a big leap ahead for the G82 (the G82 wouldn't loose much time even if it dropped to 5k during shifts thanks to the S58's power curve).

The G82 is always above 500hp in the 100-200 sprint, while the F82 GTS drops as low as 400hp, due to larger gear spacing, during the same sprint.

The power to weight ratio with ABS' numbers are almost identical btw;

F82: 492/1599 = 0,30769
G82: 522/1695 = 0,30796
Not quite sure where you are getting your rpm vs speed in gear numbers, but for the F8X DCT shifting 3rd and 4th at 7,500 rpm drops the rpm to ~5,600 in 4th and ~5,900 in 5th. And at 100km/h, the F82GTS is still in 2nd gear at ~7,000rpm.

The tighter gear ratios of the 8AT could be factor in the improved acceleration, but IMO not a significant one. I believe the main difference between the GTS S55 tune and the S58 Competition tune is how fat the power curve is, where the S58C has more area under the curve than the S55GTS, maintaining near peak power level over a much broader rpm band.
I used the gear ratio charts in the ABS articles (OP and your link).
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      04-11-2021, 09:58 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
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Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Not quite sure where you are getting your rpm vs speed in gear numbers, but for the F8X DCT shifting 3rd and 4th at 7,500 rpm drops the rpm to ~5,600 in 4th and ~5,900 in 5th. And at 100km/h, the F82GTS is still in 2nd gear at ~7,000rpm.
I used the gear ratio charts in the ABS articles (OP and your link).
The Autobild chart is consistent with the numbers I calculated:
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      04-11-2021, 10:08 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
The Competition package for the F8X was launched in January 2016, ~1.5 years after the the F8X hit the market and well over a year before the 991.2 hit the market. Get you facts straight.
First, you were claiming that the 991.2 was released 3 years after the F8X, but I have compared the M4 Competition with the 991.2, now the relevant difference is 1 year and I'm the one that needs to get my facts strait. So which one is it, 3 or 1 year
I don't care much about remembering the dates (i hardly remember when I was born) so I have used this as a source:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_M4#M4_Competition

"On 25 September 2013, BMW released the technical specifications of the M4.

During February 2016, BMW announced the M4 Competition.
"

https://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-ne...-ar171137.html

"It’s been four years since its introduction at the 2011 Frankfurt Motor Show, and the 2012 Porsche 911 (991) has just received it mid-cycle.

by Ciprian Florea, on September 9, 2015, 08:00"

Even if we go by your data, this "1 year difference" excuse is irrelevant because the M4 Competition was and upgrade to the base car, the same as 991,2 was to Carrera!

Quote:
AM&S Supertest 'ring times:
  • 7:48 2010 M3 GTS
  • 7:40 2010 911 GT3
  • 7:37 2016 M4 GTS
  • 7:32 2016 911 GT3
  • 7:18 2017 911 GT3

Base vs GTS:
  • E92 8:05 --> 7:48 = 17 seconds faster
  • F82 7:52 --> 7:37 = 15 seconds faster

Again, get your facts straight. The M4GTS is not the superstar you make it to be.
My main point was more about the generational leap and not so much a difference within the model range (though I had mixed up in my memory the time for the E92 M3 GTS around Nordschleife, so the claim I made that the GTS was marginally faster than the base car was wrong):

E46 M3CSL 7:50 - E92 M3 GTS 7:49 / 1 sec. difference

E92 M3 GTS 7:49 - F82 M4 GTS 7:37 / 12 sec. difference

I have never said the M4 GTS was a superstar (that title goes to CSL),
I have stated that the M4 GTS set the bar much higher in comparison to the E92 GTS, and that the car was on most tracks closer in performance to the Porsche GT3 than the E92 GTS was in its time.

Quote:
The F82C on street tires was faster than the E92GTS was on track tires. The G8X needs PSC2 to beat the F82GTS by a few tenths; on street tires it is slower. Good progress, but nothing extra-ordinary.
If we take in to account that the E92 GTS was only 1 sec. faster on the ring compared to the E46 CSL, it would be disastrous if F82C was not faster than that, specially if we take in to account the massive advantage the new turbo motors had compared to naturally aspirated (luxury G8X don't have)!
Good progress, but nothing extra-ordinary

That is the reason I have compared the new G82 and F82 to its rivals like Carrera S, and judging by that gap, G82 looks like a very capable car to me!

Quote:
15% is marginal in terms of chassis rigidity improvement and IMO, in mostly stems from the wider and taller body of the G8X. Look up torsional stiffness. And like I said, do the math: if the base car is 25% stiffer and the ///M is only 15% stiffer it cannot have "more effective stiffening".
That could also mean that the base car is very stiff as it is, and that there was not so much room for additional improvement (I don't know about the details because I didn't go trough the technical specification for both cars). Any way, every % in any area counts when you are trying to improve performance, otherwise they wouldn't bother to do it.
The G8X is stiffer than F8X no matter how you turn it around, get over it!

Last edited by PeregrineFalcon; 04-11-2021 at 10:24 AM..
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      04-11-2021, 10:42 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manuelf View Post
Ok. I see. But the whole discussion imho can't be fully scientific anyhow. Too many variables in the game ... and too few datapoints. If you now start to take into account:
- tire development
- weather conditions during tests/datapoints
- overall track tarmac change over the years

and so on ... you end nowhere...
I think the basic question here was: Was BMW M lazy with their last model engineering wise or not compared to its history.
IMHO not! I think you also have to take into account, that (track) performance can't be linearly enhanced over the years (with a given base technology).
This happens nowhere, when we look at tech! So when looking at the delivered performance by BMW M - which still looks like linear improvements in tracktimes over the generations, this looks like a great achievement to me and a clear sign, that M rather intensified its effort with the last generations ...
It still is "scientific", we just need to understand the variables. As having spend a big portion of my professional career in test engineering, I fully understand that a single data point does not mean much. It is much better to rely on multiple data points, discard the outliers and establish overall trends. There's no such thing as absolutes.
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      04-11-2021, 11:00 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Not quite the right comparison for the discussions at stake . Here we're talking previous gen GTS vs next gen competition gains.

According to Autobild test data for 100-200km/h (to keep it consistent with OP topic):
E92GTS --> F82C = 0.5s (9.4 vs 8.9)
F82GTS --> G82C = 0.7s (8.5 vs 7.8)

As you can see, the G82C has at least as much improvement in acceleration over the F82GTS than the F82C had over the E92GTS. So yes, chassis improvements are present, but so are tire tech and power levels.
Do you really think that the difference between F82 M4C and M4 GTS is only 0.4s? And do you really think that the gap between S65 and S55 is the same between S55 and S58?
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      04-11-2021, 11:45 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VIERsr View Post
Do you really think that the difference between F82 M4C and M4 GTS is only 0.4s?
No, because we are looking at a single samples here. I did a more extensive analysis taking several samples a while back, and the gap between M4C and M4GTS is more in the 0.8~0.9s range for the 100-200km/h

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1376759

Taking multiple samples for 100-200km/h tells us:
E92GTS --> F82C = 0.4~0.5 faster
F82GTS --> G82C = 0.5~0.7 faster

And the same conclusion remains

Quote:
Originally Posted by VIERsr View Post
And do you really think that the gap between S65 and S55 is the same between S55 and S58?
Actually yes, and probably more so. That S58 is quite potent.
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      04-11-2021, 11:35 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by bgexpress View Post
What really sticks out to me is the e46 m3 CSL time, far ahead of its time.
Facts!
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      04-12-2021, 04:55 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
It's "just" 94kg (207lbs) heavier than the GTS (1601kg vs 1695kg).

It has more tire on the ground and probably better bracing to support/stiffen suspension pickup points. However it has std suspension and not coilovers like the GTS. So it's quite impressive yes.

This gen M3/M4 has the potential to be the largest leap between generations in track performance in the history of M3/M4...

Nürburgring Supertest lap times:

E36 M3: 8:35
E46 M3: 8:22
E46 M3 CSL: 7:50
E92 M3: 8:05
E92 M3 GTS: 7:49
F82 M4: 7:52
F82 M4 GTS: 7:37
F82 M4 CS: 7:42
G82 M4 Comp: 7:28-7:29

All the lap times are Sport Auto Supertest lap times, apart from the G82 which is a inside source BMW factory lap time (unclear if that is the SA layout or full length lap).

Previous gen std M3/M4 have been slower than the predecessor CSL/GTS models. The G8x Comp seem to be faster than the previous gen GTS and CS...
Does the above highlighted timings need correction since it has been quoted subsequently by others?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lemetier View Post
The F82 M4 Std SA time is a few seconds slower than it should have been.

G8x SA Nordschleife time of 7:34 - 7:39 is what I'm expecting to see.
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      04-12-2021, 04:56 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
A very impressive showing indeed.

A few precision points, the G82 tested here only has marginally wider front tires than the F82 CS/GTS (275 vs 265) and same rear size. I believe the main difference regarding the tires is from the latest gen PSC2. Pretty cool that they tested both the PS4S and PSC2.

Regarding chassis bracing, there is no indication that the G8X has superior bracing over the F8X. IMO, chassis improvements stem from the wider track and latest gen suspension tech (EDC).

With a 7.8s 100-200km/h, the S58 is mightily impressive too!

1,595kg is a nice surprise. What strikes me is the weight distribution: 57/43 . That's Audi territory. EDIT: it is a typo in the picture, the tech sheet shows the correct 53/47 distribution.
1,595 or 1,695 kg? What is the track package, and options on the car?
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      04-12-2021, 05:11 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
It seems there is a desire to diminish the G8x achievements and at the same time portray the F8x in a better light.
If so, then you are doing the opposite of "diminishing".
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      04-12-2021, 09:19 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bm323 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
It seems there is a desire to diminish the G8x achievements and at the same time portray the F8x in a better light.
If so, then you are doing the opposite of "diminishing".
I try to counterargue those portraying to post opinions as "facts" and show that sometimes (quite often) those "facts" might not be so black and white.

In trying to argue that, it might seem that I am biased the other way. When you play Devils advocate that is often how it's perceived.

I really like the new G8x gen cars, however a F80 is probably going to be my next fun car. My son recently called the F8x the modern E30, and I think that was a good description! It will still look awesome for a long time, even though it looks like yesterdays design (just like the E30 M3 still looks amazing).

I really like the F8x lively and nimble handling as well as it's more characterful DCT gearbox.

And that it's lighter than the G8x (but thankfully the G8x isn't as heavy as feared).
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      04-12-2021, 09:23 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bm323 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
It's "just" 94kg (207lbs) heavier than the GTS (1601kg vs 1695kg).

It has more tire on the ground and probably better bracing to support/stiffen suspension pickup points. However it has std suspension and not coilovers like the GTS. So it's quite impressive yes.

This gen M3/M4 has the potential to be the largest leap between generations in track performance in the history of M3/M4...

Nürburgring Supertest lap times:

E36 M3: 8:35
E46 M3: 8:22
E46 M3 CSL: 7:50
E92 M3: 8:05
E92 M3 GTS: 7:49
F82 M4: 7:52
F82 M4 GTS: 7:37
F82 M4 CS: 7:42
G82 M4 Comp: 7:28-7:29

All the lap times are Sport Auto Supertest lap times, apart from the G82 which is a inside source BMW factory lap time (unclear if that is the SA layout or full length lap).

Previous gen std M3/M4 have been slower than the predecessor CSL/GTS models. The G8x Comp seem to be faster than the previous gen GTS and CS...
Does the above highlighted timings need correction since it has been quoted subsequently by others?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lemetier View Post
The F82 M4 Std SA time is a few seconds slower than it should have been.

G8x SA Nordschleife time of 7:34 - 7:39 is what I'm expecting to see.
Lemetier is the source of the lap times.

7:28-29 is the factory time
7:34-37 is his expectations for the lap time set by Sport Auto in their Supertest.
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      04-12-2021, 09:44 AM   #79
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      04-12-2021, 11:22 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VIERsr View Post
Interesting. Assuming lap times are under comparable conditions, it looks like Cup2's (mk2) are much less of an advantage on the G82 (vs MP4S). Only around 1 second per minute lap.

On F series platform Cup2's made a much bigger difference, and those are older Cup2's not the second generation style as now fitted to G8x (cup 2 connect version), which are faster still.

The stand out for me is how much the F82 benefitted using MP4S. That's a crazy decrease in lap time by just swapping MPSS with MP4S.

This says to me that tyre advancement is a significant factor in the G8x lap time improvement. Which makes total sense to me as the sum of the improvements were not adding up to a significantly faster platform.
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      04-12-2021, 11:47 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by VIERsr View Post
Interesting. Assuming lap times are under comparable conditions, it looks like Cup2's (mk2) are much less of an advantage on the G82 (vs MP4S). Only around 1 second per minute lap.

On F series platform Cup2's made a much bigger difference, and those are older Cup2's not the second generation style as now fitted to G8x (cup 2 connect version), which are faster still.

The stand out for me is how much the F82 benefitted using MP4S. That's a crazy decrease in lap time by just swapping MPSS with MP4S.

This says to me that tyre advancement is a significant factor in the G8x lap time improvement. Which makes total sense to me as the sum of the improvements were not adding up to a significantly faster platform.
If you read their lap time analysis in the OP, you will see that the G82 gains most over the F82 in Sector 4, which is the fast sector on this track. In this sector alone it's 1 sec quicker!

They cite the more calm behaviour due to the longer wheelbase as a major contributor to the G82's advantage on this part of the track.

On the twistier parts of the track the difference in lap times between G82 and F82 is much smaller, in sector 3 the G82 on PS4S is avtually a tad slower than the F82...

Tire development should not be underestimated, but on this track the largest chunk of time is gained on a sector where that is of less importance.

Also compared to the 911 Carrera lap in the post below with only 0,02 sec difference points to a very capable car.
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      04-12-2021, 11:50 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
Interesting. Assuming lap times are under comparable conditions, it looks like Cup2's (mk2) are much less of an advantage on the G82 (vs MP4S). Only around 1 second per minute lap.

On F series platform Cup2's made a much bigger difference, and those are older Cup2's not the second generation style as now fitted to G8x (cup 2 connect version), which are faster still.

The stand out for me is how much the F82 benefitted using MP4S. That's a crazy decrease in lap time by just swapping MPSS with MP4S.

This says to me that tyre advancement is a significant factor in the G8x lap time improvement. Which makes total sense to me as the sum of the improvements were not adding up to a significantly faster platform.
https://www.autobild.de/videos/porsc...-19472459.html

Here, the M4C on streat tires is almost as fast as Carrera S.
In this case the tires are not significant factor.
It seems that the car is actually very good on the track
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      04-12-2021, 02:21 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
If you read their lap time analysis in the OP, you will see that the G82 gains most over the F82 in Sector 4, which is the fast sector on this track. In this sector alone it's 1 sec quicker!

They cite the more calm behaviour due to the longer wheelbase as a major contributor to the G82's advantage on this part of the track.

On the twistier parts of the track the difference in lap times between G82 and F82 is much smaller, in sector 3 the G82 on PS4S is avtually a tad slower than the F82...

Tire development should not be underestimated, but on this track the largest chunk of time is gained on a sector where that is of less importance.

Also compared to the 911 Carrera lap in the post below with only 0,02 sec difference points to a very capable car.
Yes, but presumably the F82 M4 was on MPSS? What would it do on MP4S?

The F82 M4 CS did a 1:34.01 on the earlier Cup2's. From memory the CS has lighter 763m wheels and carbon bonnet/hood over the regular M4 competition.
G82 doesn't get the ridiculously heavy 666m and had the carbon seat option, so pretty close spec wise. Seats more than cancel out the carbon hood weight saving.

What time would a F82 CS do with the connect Cup2's and an additional 60hp? I think lap times would be almost identical to G82 comp with Cup2's.

Which is not bad for the G82 as it is 94kg heavier than the CS.
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      04-13-2021, 03:11 AM   #84
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out of curiosity:
Are you guys all going to track that car?

If not:
Who the hell cares? It's faster anyway and you won't be able to use it anywhere unless you are on ze german autobahn.

It's impressive for me to see what this car is capable of. But i'm damn sure I will feel it not even 1% of the time I own this car as I will use it basically exclusively for daily stuff.
I will track it someday for sure, just for fun. And I bet my a** even if I had an F80 I would have the same amount of fun.
These cars are beasts anyway and i'm such a beginner tracker that I won't notice anything at all. And I think most of the buyers are like me, just few will use the car on the very limit.

Let's accept the fact the BMW made a great car.
Lack of DCT is the only thing I understand why people are upset.
And looks is subjective, always has been.
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      04-13-2021, 05:05 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorp!on View Post
out of curiosity:
Are you guys all going to track that car?

If not:
Who the hell cares? It's faster anyway and you won't be able to use it anywhere unless you are on ze german autobahn.

It's impressive for me to see what this car is capable of. But i'm damn sure I will feel it not even 1% of the time I own this car as I will use it basically exclusively for daily stuff.
I will track it someday for sure, just for fun. And I bet my a** even if I had an F80 I would have the same amount of fun.
These cars are beasts anyway and i'm such a beginner tracker that I won't notice anything at all. And I think most of the buyers are like me, just few will use the car on the very limit.

Let's accept the fact the BMW made a great car.
Lack of DCT is the only thing I understand why people are upset.
And looks is subjective, always has been.
I actually do. Having a single car than can serve both my daily needs and my track addiction is what got me into my first E46 M3 20 years ago. So yes, I do care how well they perform on track.
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      04-13-2021, 05:10 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
Interesting. Assuming lap times are under comparable conditions, it looks like Cup2's (mk2) are much less of an advantage on the G82 (vs MP4S). Only around 1 second per minute lap.

On F series platform Cup2's made a much bigger difference, and those are older Cup2's not the second generation style as now fitted to G8x (cup 2 connect version), which are faster still.

The stand out for me is how much the F82 benefitted using MP4S. That's a crazy decrease in lap time by just swapping MPSS with MP4S.

This says to me that tyre advancement is a significant factor in the G8x lap time improvement. Which makes total sense to me as the sum of the improvements were not adding up to a significantly faster platform.
It’s interesting you’d say that, because my experience of the first gen PSC2 tells me they are worth less than a second per minute lap over the PSS on a single flying lap. Similar to what we see here between the PS4S and the latest gen PSC2. The main benefit of the PSC2 is that they tolerate heat better and therefore do not fall off as fast as the PSS/PS4S after multiple laps. And even the PSC2 (at least the gen-1 BMW star spec) aren’t that good either, they start overheating and chunking away quite fast when really pushed.

And I think you might be misreading what car is tested with the PS4S here, the 1:33.98 time is the G82C with its stock PS4S, not the F82C...
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      04-13-2021, 05:16 AM   #87
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I actually do. Having a single car than can serve both my daily needs and my track addiction is what got me into my first E46 M3 20 years ago. So yes, I do care how well they perform on track.
that's why I said very few people will do so.
I know that you track the car, but you are one of very few people who buy cars like this and track them regularly.
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      04-13-2021, 05:27 AM   #88
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Just in case people wonder how much improvement the PS4S offer over the PSS (hint: ~1s/min)

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/bmw/...term-update-4/
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