[solstice]

Originally Posted by frankiebones

I concur. I run snow tires all winter and find my RWD M3's have out performed Quattro Audi's I owned with all season tires.

Some of the Quattros are rather impressive in slippery conditions though. Anecdotal from yesterday. I was on my way up to the mountains on properly rain soaked roads. I was cruising at 90 mph in the Cayenne in the outer lane when I spotted something approaching fast in the rear mirror and quickly moved right. An Audi RS something roared past sounding like it had a straight piped V8, I mean proper race car volume and I’ll estimate he was going 130-140. The roaster tail prevented me to see exactly what model it was but it looked like it was on rails.

[Ristau]

Originally Posted by swagon

Well, they haven't really said anything new in this presentation, but I found these two slides to be pretty interesting:

The most interesting thing here to me is the project manual take rate of the M3 being significantly higher than the Coupe

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Ristau

The most interesting thing here to me is the project manual take rate of the M3 being significantly higher than the Coupe

I think this might be because past numbers.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

I think this might be because past numbers.

I think it's also due to the fact that there are still a dozen or so high performance coupes available with manual transmission while the M3 is currently the only high performance sedan you can get with an MT. Later this year it will be joined by the CT4 and CT5 Blackwing models, but that's still nowhere near the number of options MT coupe buyers have.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I think it's also due to the fact that there are still a dozen or so high performance coupes available with manual transmission while the M3 is currently the only high performance sedan you can get with an MT. Later this year it will be joined by the CT4 and CT5 Blackwing models, but that's still nowhere near the number of options MT coupe buyers have.

And MT buyers are now mainly old geezers who need the practicality of 4 doors

[frankiebones]

It's interesting to me that they expect the take rate on the 6MT to decrease slightly. I thought that despite the lower HP/TQ numbers and lack of AWD, the 6MT take rate would potentially increase given it is likely (or probably) the swan song of the MT in general.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by frankiebones

It's interesting to me that they expect the take rate on the 6MT to decrease slightly. I thought that despite the lower HP/TQ numbers and lack of AWD, the 6MT take rate would potentially increase given it is likely (or probably) the swan song of the MT in general.

No Competition or AWD will likely cause some losses for the MT. People like me that like MT, DCT and AT of different reasons will weigh other differentiators and like me some will go AT this time that went MT last time. Probably more than going the other way but these are only estimates so club 6 MT can still prove them wrong

[xlover]

Originally Posted by frankiebones

It's interesting to me that they expect the take rate on the 6MT to decrease slightly. I thought that despite the lower HP/TQ numbers and lack of AWD, the 6MT take rate would potentially increase given it is likely (or probably) the swan song of the MT in general.

I think the number missing from the slides is overall unit growth forecast.... (probably was the slide before in the deck)
I see a result where total manual units grow slightly (for the reasons you noted) but the introduction of awd increases overall units, driving down rate for other variants

[Casone238]

Originally Posted by Sublime00

People are so averse to getting snow tires and automatically default to this mindset that AWD as "more usable" year round. I don't think many people realize just how usable snow tires make a car.

I understand if it snows so much that you need AWD for months at a time, but in the majority of states, esp in the North East you really only need AWD for a few days.

I'd rather rent a car, Uber/Lyft, get a beater, or carpool then have an AWD for those handful of days where you really really need it.

Cant comment on track use or drag race use, but if that's your jam, then go for it. I don't know how this BMW AWD/RWD system is, but without a manual it makes it a no go (for me). This is completely anecdotal, but I still think the manual RWD take rate will be higher than predicted by these percentages, and I hope it is bc someone needs to keep making a stick shift.

While I don't disagree with you but it's the hassle of switching tires for the seasons and rotating tires. Which the problem mostly is living in a apt complex even tho I have dedicated parking it's the storage issue for the snow tires. Hence while also having a beater for those days is not really a liable option need a car that does it all

[walmark]

Originally Posted by Casone238

While I don't disagree with you but it's the hassle of switching tires for the seasons and rotating tires. Which the problem mostly is living in a apt complex even tho I have dedicated parking it's the storage issue for the snow tires. Hence while also having a beater for those days is not really a liable option need a car that does it all

I don't think that AWD is a substitute for snow tires in the winter. It gives you better control when it's wet and ugly outside, but on snowy or icy roads, especially in the mountains, it's the stopping and steering that you should worry about. And AWD won't help you there.
There is a video on YT from a tire reviewer, comparing AWD on All Season vs. RWD and Winter tires on the snow (both on X3 I think), and it's really night and day.

[Casone238]

Originally Posted by walmark

I don't think that AWD is a substitute for snow tires in the winter. It gives you better control when it's wet and ugly outside, but on snowy or icy roads, especially in the mountains, it's the stopping and steering that you should worry about. And AWD won't help you there.
There is a video on YT from a tire reviewer, comparing AWD on All Season vs. RWD and Winter tires on the snow (both on X3 I think), and it's really night and day.

Agreed my brother would put snow tires on his ATS-V and it was fine in the snow (not sure which ones). It's the hassle of switching them out and storing the tires. On my C43 on all seasons I had no issues in the snow in terms of getting stuck. There were times driving upstate through bear mountain and city driving turning where I would lose traction. Even this past blizzard on the m340 on all seasons I was fine. Losing fractions on turns here and there. From my experience with rwd cars in the winter is getting stuck in parking spots or at a red light

[Pantagathus]

Originally Posted by frankiebones

I concur. I run snow tires all winter and find my RWD M3's have out performed Quattro Audi's I owned with all season tires.

I remember renting a car at a ski field in Europe that had winter tires, having previously only exclusively owned AWDs. We debated for days whether the car was 2WD or AWD, the grip was incredible, totally changed my perspective on AWD vs 2WD

Of course, AWD + snow tires...

[OSee]

Originally Posted by Pantagathus

I remember renting a car at a ski field in Europe that had winter tires, having previously only exclusively owned AWDs. We debated for days whether the car was 2WD or AWD, the grip was incredible, totally changed my perspective on AWD vs 2WD

Of course, AWD + snow tires...

I lived on the east coast for many years and drove nothing but rear wheel drive cars (including an entire winter with summer tires on a CLS63).

There's honestly nothing a full set of Blizzaks (all 4 tires on RWD) can't handle.

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by Takumi587

Why does everyone think the design was catered to Asia?

Originally Posted by mkoesel

It's definitely not everyone, but yes, there is a small, vocal minority that believes nonsense like this.

The reason is simple: bigotry is a thing and confirmation bias is also a thing.

While not sure that it was specifically designed for Chinese, there were so multiple articles about this, including interview that are saying this; it is impossible to ignore the fact that many times they did say that the Chinese market influenced greatly the design.
Just start searching.

———————————————————
From the Interview with Adrian Van Hooydonk

“ “The briefing we got was to make sure people understood the difference [between the 7 and the 5 Series] and notice it. When we launched the car [the 7 Series] it was quite smaller. The feedback we got on that was that people couldn’t see enough difference to the predecessor.”

...people can be shocked by the sheer size of the thing and that criticism, especially when it comes to design, is to be expected: “My objective is to do something that everybody likes but it’s not always possible.”

“Another interesting argument we can’t possibly deny is the fact that the customers have the final say. Since the biggest market for the 7 Series is in China, whatever the Chinese customer demands will be made”

“In Europe, people don’t want to get noticed. They don’t like being asked what they paid for a car and they like things in black like a stealth mode. The rest of the world is the opposite. We tried to give the Europeans what they want as well but the strongest market for the 7 is not Europe.”

Adrian van Hooydonk

———————————————————-

“Specifically, Chinese customers are found to show a particular focus on the headlamps when they look at a car and premium car owners would like their cars to reflect their status, and BMW has made changes accordingly in the new 7 Series, including enlarging its iconic double-kidney grille, besides the latest technology, said Goller.

The German automaker's focus on meeting local demands is not limited to the flagship model. Since Goller took the helm of BMW China, he has made the product department report directly to him and succeeded in making the voice of Chinese customers to be better heard at BMW's headquarters in Munich.

Goller said his team uses statistics to influence designers and engineers to offer features that appeal to Chinese customers.”

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/cndy/20...t_37474070.htm

[frankiebones]

Originally Posted by Pantagathus

I remember renting a car at a ski field in Europe that had winter tires, having previously only exclusively owned AWDs. We debated for days whether the car was 2WD or AWD, the grip was incredible, totally changed my perspective on AWD vs 2WD

Of course, AWD + snow tires...

AWD +snow tires + chains!

[JDUNITNOW]

Originally Posted by dgm3

The downfall of manual in Europe is however not due to taxes. Even in countries where there is no tax difference between auto and manual the manual share of market is very low. Was quoted between 5 and 10% for M2 when buying a manual M2C in 2018. This is even lower on M3/M4 and I am pretty sure no dealership here will have a manual G80/G82 on demo or in the showroom.

This one is manual in a showroom in Virginia. Full leather, carbon interior and shadow line package.

[JWG80M3]

Originally Posted by Wyndi335I

This one is manual in a showroom in Virginia. Full leather, carbon interior and shadow line package.

Where in VA?

[Pantagathus]

Originally Posted by Wyndi335I

This one is manual in a showroom in Virginia. Full leather, carbon interior and shadow line package.

That's basically my build except I added the carbon exterior package and have a tartufo of interior. As outrageously priced as the carbon pack is, it does make those front vents look mean, and the mirror caps combined with the carbon roof pop

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Teutonic

While not sure that it was specifically designed for Chinese, there were so multiple articles about this, including interview that are saying this; it is impossible to ignore the fact that many times they did say that the Chinese market influenced greatly the design.

The thread topic is the M3 and M4, not the 7 Series. The sources you cite specifically address the fact that China is the biggest market for the 7 Series. The source in the first post of this thread specifically addresses the fact that the China is not the biggest market for the M3 and M4. So, why then do some folks still want insist that it is, and then use that false belief to further insist that the vehicles were designed for that market? The answer to that was given in my post.

[LOW4LYF]

Originally Posted by solstice

Some of the Quattros are rather impressive in slippery conditions though. Anecdotal from yesterday. I was on my way up to the mountains on properly rain soaked roads. I was cruising at 90 mph in the Cayenne in the outer lane when I spotted something approaching fast in the rear mirror and quickly moved right. An Audi RS something roared past sounding like it had a straight piped V8, I mean proper race car volume and I’ll estimate he was going 130-140. The roaster tail prevented me to see exactly what model it was but it looked like it was on rails.

140mph on rain soaked roads is stupid no matter what car, far away from being impressive.

[killhour]

Originally Posted by LOW4LYF

140mph on rain soaked roads is stupid no matter what car, far away from being impressive.

Agreed. Any car can look fast in bad conditions if you don't care about surviving.

[willie55912]

Originally Posted by JWG80M3

Out of curiosity, does anyone know where BMW hosted their early shows this year of the M3/M4 and for what audiences?

Saw the cars on television during the Daytona 24 race. Do not know the specifics of the display itself...private invitation....etc.....