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      02-05-2021, 08:21 PM   #23
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Very strong points by Doug here. BMW used to be the industry trend-setter and was always a step ahead of all its competitors. Whether it was in styling, driving dynamics, technology, and overall brand image/coolness factor.

BMW had already started watering down their driving dynamics and going full crossover before the Tesla Model S came along in 2012. At the time it was the right decision for the short-term as this was the industry trend and led to sales growth. Their softed and floatier cars attracted new customers. However Tesla became the industry trend-setter that younger people started aspiring to own.

Now BMW is left with a severely diluted product portfolio and a lost brand image. Their cars are objectively very good but are attempting to be everything to everybody. BMW is just another luxury car that everybody and their mother has parked on their driveway. BMW is as the old saying goes, "sell outs."

BMW has seen it's heydey come and go; just as many retailers, sports franchises, movie franchises, etc. have done. They can still continue to succeed, but will always be measured against their vast success during their "golden age" during the 90s and 00s.
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      02-05-2021, 08:24 PM   #24
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I think BMW is lost on trying to figure out its consumers. My generation grew up lusting after e28 M5 and e30 M3s, and even the regular bmws felt cool and desirable. I don't know if the future generations will be as into cars let alone the act of driving itself. BMW is still capable of making true driver's cars and showcased it in M2 CS, but they know the consumers will want something different in the future (e.g. a self-driving EV).
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      02-05-2021, 08:32 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkfastwagon View Post
I think BMW is lost on trying to figure out its consumers. My generation grew up lusting after e28 M5 and e30 M3s, and even the regular bmws felt cool and desirable. I don't know if the future generations will be as into cars let alone the act of driving itself. BMW is still capable of making true driver's cars and showcased it in M2 CS, but they know the consumers will want something different in the future (e.g. a self-driving EV).
Good point. Society and people's desires for what they seek out of an automobile have shifted drastically. I'd argue that the appreciation people used to have for raw engineering has been displaced by an obsession with software and environmentalism. As a result, a self-driving EV with an iPad mounted to the dash is probably what younger generations desire. These values clash head on with BMW's core values. It's no wonder BMW is struggling to adapt.
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      02-05-2021, 09:17 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
Very strong points by Doug here. BMW used to be the industry trend-setter and was always a step ahead of all its competitors. Whether it was in styling, driving dynamics, technology, and overall brand image/coolness factor.

BMW had already started watering down their driving dynamics and going full crossover before the Tesla Model S came along in 2012. At the time it was the right decision for the short-term as this was the industry trend and led to sales growth. Their softed and floatier cars attracted new customers. However Tesla became the industry trend-setter that younger people started aspiring to own.

Now BMW is left with a severely diluted product portfolio and a lost brand image. Their cars are objectively very good but are attempting to be everything to everybody. BMW is just another luxury car that everybody and their mother has parked on their driveway. BMW is as the old saying goes, "sell outs."

BMW has seen it's heydey come and go; just as many retailers, sports franchises, movie franchises, etc. have done. They can still continue to succeed, but will always be measured against their vast success during their "golden age" during the 90s and 00s.
This not something that is unique to BMW. The car market is dynamic. People wanted more crossovers and SUVs and BMW has delivered them. BMW makes some of the best SUVs on the market with X3, X5 and X7 being hugely successful in this country. Now people are asking for EVs and BMW is adjusting the lineup again. But because BMW also deeply cares about their purist base, their M division continues to offer their ultimate driving machines, incl. M2 CS, M3/M4 with RWD and MT, M4 GTS, M5 CS, and more. Indeed, BMW has become a powerhouse mainstream luxury brand that caters to any automotive taste and nothing makes it more obvious than their steadily growing worldwide delivery numbers.
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      02-05-2021, 09:55 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by DrFerry View Post
To Think About What Could've Been - Of Cabbages and Kings

Alternatives to the Beaver Teeth grills



Or perhaps



Could BMW sell more of these M3/M4s?



OR THESE?



Does the emperor have no clothes?
.
Those "alternative grill" renderings make it look like an M5. That's not bad, but it's not particularly great either. There should be something separating the M3/4 from the M5 and not just the size alone.

We've seen what the new grill will look like and to some, that makes the alternatives look dated. That sort of thing matters to regular BMW owners who buy whatever is on the lot at the dealership.

For anyone things that there's a battle where BMW might turn around and redesign the grill - that battle was lost when you saw it in the first official image releases. This is it for the next few years until the next thing to get angry out is an all-electric M3/4.
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      02-06-2021, 05:47 AM   #28
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      02-06-2021, 07:02 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFerry View Post
To Think About What Could've Been - Of Cabbages and Kings

Alternatives to the Beaver Teeth grills
It doesnt matter what you show as that addresses a couple of meh looking cars they released. The point of the video was to say that in general, BMW corporate direction now is evidently missing the boat and it is perhaps too late.

If BMW wants to fix this, they will need 4-7 years. By that point whatever they invest into will be obsolete technology wise - thats what happens when you compete on technology and not on 1) quality 2) engineering 3) driving fun. They always could beat those American car companies, and easily, because those things were not the focus of american car companies, but as cars got very good those things were nice differentiating factors in the West.

BMW then decided to compete (arrogantly) with one american car company on same values as in past, plus technology. And as we all know, americans may not built prittiest or highest quality cars in past, but they sure as sh.t know how to make technology work. It's a risk taking culture thing. Americans are best at it. Sometimes it blows up but on average, things move along pretty nicely vs the cautious approach in European execs who also make mistakes, but usually far worse on a bigger scale. And BMW walked into this, like everyone else, trying to make a technology product. They will probably lose.

VAG might have a chance as their investment into RIMAC could pay off with the driving technology bits. However by then Tesla is going to be about Autonomous driving and again leaving old school companies behind.

Asian car makers will be competition to Tesla, not European. Europe doesn't have much edge in technology, might as Germany try. So I think Toyota and especially South Korean brans will be the one on the up and up, as they have the comparable knowledge of making smart tech and they have the car knowledge.

Now, Tesla Im sure would like to learn how to make better cars as far as quality goes, but I think they are not dumb enough to approve designs like BMW iX and M3-4.

I think Tesla will just poach top quality engineers from other car companies like BMW, thereby hastening their demise.

There is a chance something might change in BMW but as you see, sales are OK so far, and it is impossible to fire those people at the top without them losing sales for may be 2 years or so. This is a trap. Their sales are good because vast amount of buyers still happy to churn ICE engine cars as full EV mode wont suit all (range, charging, etc). By that point, given the pace of tech it will be too late to save BMW. They will be selling off some brands, and they are very rich. But I cant imagine anyone lusting over these nasty Ix cars or whatever.

BMW needs a massive shakeup, top end designer, and an Apple partnership to stay relevant. Apple though, I think, doesn't wanna deal with BMW so - good luck to BMW.
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      02-06-2021, 07:57 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFerry View Post
To Think About What Could've Been - Of Cabbages and Kings

Alternatives to the Beaver Teeth grills



Or perhaps



Could BMW sell more of these M3/M4s?



OR THESE?



Does the emperor have no clothes?
.
The "past" vs the "present"
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      02-06-2021, 09:37 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by am3r1ka View Post
This dead horse has been beaten to no end.
If they keep tweeting, we gonna keep beating
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      02-06-2021, 10:43 AM   #32
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Doug makes decent points but I think where BMW got lost is they tried to do everything at once to please everyone and simply lost focus. They never needed 7 SUVs / Crossovers... the M brand should have remained untouched with 0 talk of electrification for the future and the I brand should have been the sole developer of electric tech. Today, they could have used the I tech and completely evolved the 5 series, 3 and 7 series as well as the SUVs as modern electric cars with much higher quality than Tesla and probably a better driving experience and only had the M Brand as a true enthusiast brand. They simply lost focus by trying to please too many at once. Things went downhill around 2011 in my opinion with the introduction of the F series where the only legitimate 'drivers cars' left where the m2 and m3.
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      02-06-2021, 11:25 AM   #33
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I’m sorry, but I have always found him to be unwatchable. It’s like watching an SNL skit from the “School of Overacting Theater”.

As to the merits, I agree BMW is not as raw or exhilarating as it once was (with the exception of the M5), but I don’t think that’s what the masses and market seek.
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      02-06-2021, 12:15 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post
I’m sorry, but I have always found him to be unwatchable. It’s like watching an SNL skit from the “School of Overacting Theater”.

As to the merits, I agree BMW is not as raw or exhilarating as it once was (with the exception of the M5), but I don’t think that’s what the masses and market seek.
That’s exactly right!
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      02-06-2021, 01:52 PM   #35
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I agree with him. BMW isn't the brand it once was. It doesn't have the same panache as when I got my first one back in 2007. I understand from a business perspective that if you go from a car for enthusiasts to a car for the people, for soccer moms that you are likely to sell more cars. My local dealer used to run ads claiming they were a "dealer for the people" which I didn't think fit the BMW brand. Honda and Ford are brands for the people, but BMW was, WAS, special. I feel like there used to be some camaraderie or something like that with other BMW drivers you'd see, but now I can pull up next to someone at a light and there is no recognition. They don't care that they are in a BMW. It's just a car. A nice car, but just a car, and not as special of one as it used to be at that.

I didn't understand when they broke things up in to coupe and sedan lines (3 and 4 series) and took one of the most iconic cars, the M3, and changed its name. And THEN, they add sedans into the coupe line (4 GC)? They have WAY too many models, I assume to appeal to a broader range of people. There is a car for every need and budget.

And now their new ad campaigns with things like Kith and these 18yo looking models they have in their ads. Why are they marketing to the section of the population that doesn't have the money to afford their cars? And don't get me started on Dukec who just needs to be fired before he totally kills off every last thing that BMW was once known for. He's basically said it himself. "That hofmeister - he just drew a single line on a drawing." BMW says they are happy that only 20% of people like their current designs and that that's right where they want to be? What kind of business practice is that? So many things about the brand are so confusing these days.

Now, all that said, I can't wait to get the M4 I have on order in a few months! (but I do wish the styling was a little different)
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      02-06-2021, 02:29 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snareman View Post
I didn't understand when they broke things up in to coupe and sedan lines (3 and 4 series) and took one of the most iconic cars, the M3, and changed its name. And THEN, they add sedans into the coupe line (4 GC)? They have WAY too many models, I assume to appeal to a broader range of people. There is a car for every need and budget.
MB is going the same route. All these silly “AMG-lite” cars, the myriad of SUV’s of every size and shape, and coupes stretched into sedans just sucks.
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      02-06-2021, 03:45 PM   #37
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Automakers scared of Tesla? What a load of hogwash. Tesla is two quarters away from bankruptcy.
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      02-06-2021, 04:35 PM   #38
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The problem here is too many models, water down M badge, and ugly grill. Sometimes less is more. Down size the under preforming models, make the M more sacred, and fix the damn GRILL!!!
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      02-06-2021, 04:56 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by henrylee View Post
The problem here is too many models, water down M badge, and ugly grill. Sometimes less is more. Down size the under preforming models, make the M more sacred, and fix the damn GRILL!!!
+1.

BMW's obsessiveness with dicking with the grilles on the cars has turned it into an automobile freak show.
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      02-06-2021, 05:15 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henrylee View Post
The problem here is too many models, water down M badge, and ugly grill. Sometimes less is more. Down size the under preforming models, make the M more sacred, and fix the damn GRILL!!!
Agreed. I had an M435 some years back and realized that (as I've stated above) BMW can sell more cars to the masses by doing things like putting M badges on non-M cars. I happily paid a few thousand extra for the M performance package compared to 15-20k extra for the actual M car. It's definitely not the sacred letter it onces was, but in current BMW strategy, whatever sells the most cars (which I understand from a business perspective)
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      02-06-2021, 06:22 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by am3r1ka View Post
This dead horse has been beaten to no end.
And apparently still not beaten enough when you consider the arrogant ignorance of the BMW management.
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      02-06-2021, 06:32 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by snareman View Post
Now, all that said, I can't wait to get the M4 I have on order in a few months! (but I do wish the styling was a little different)
Because of the arrogance of Dukec and Van Looy, I'am willing to forsake BMW engineering and look elsewhere for the first time in 25 years.

Look at the new topgear article.
https://www.topgear.com/car-news/ret...-not-happening

Again, they laugh with the heritance of the brand and confirm they are convinced of their current direction:

“We feel we should continue the fire, as opposed to worshipping the ashes, if you know what I mean,” he concluded.
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      02-06-2021, 07:08 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KoenG View Post
Because of the arrogance of Dukec and Van Looy, I'am willing to forsake BMW engineering and look elsewhere for the first time in 25 years.

Look at the new topgear article.
https://www.topgear.com/car-news/ret...-not-happening

Again, they laugh with the heritance of the brand and confirm they are convinced of their current direction:

“We feel we should continue the fire, as opposed to worshipping the ashes, if you know what I mean,” he concluded.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian van Hooydonk
I feel that retro design works well if you want to reposition a brand that has sort of lost its way
Oh the irony...
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      02-06-2021, 07:15 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by henrylee View Post
The problem here is too many models...
Right... ~20

https://carbuzz.com/cars/bmw20
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