05-26-2023, 07:14 PM | #111 | ||
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That being said, there is no problem in trying to achieve a "higher degree of understanding" in our debates (otherwise it is pointless to have a forum to discuss together, right?). Like many car enthusiasts, I hold the view that there are two classes of 911s: The GT and the non-GT cars. The GT models are very, very special cars (but not necessarily alone in their class anymore, as proven by the C8 Z06 in this Hagerty video). The non-GT cars –especially the lower models of the series– have many worthy competitors with similar or better performance at a similar price point (including the G82 comp). Agreed, the M3 and M4 are awesome cars and great value for their price.
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05-26-2023, 10:57 PM | #112 |
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Anything more than a typical 3-mile test drive around a dealership in a brand new car still far from its break-in service. It's pretty clear even at 5/10ths that the G8x and 992 non-GT cars are on par. Are 992s better driving machines? Yes, but not dramatically so, and certainly not to the extent that they'd be considered in a different class.
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05-27-2023, 05:50 AM | #113 |
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I’ve owned many M cars and GT3s, tons of track time, they’re very different.
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05-27-2023, 05:53 AM | #114 | |
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Grigio Telesto M4, 6MT. Coyote 5.0 F-150 991 GT3 |
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05-27-2023, 09:17 AM | #115 |
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Same and for the most part, I'd even agree. But the CSL is similar in ethos and feel to a 911 GT3.
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05-27-2023, 09:28 AM | #116 | |
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When I was offered the opportunity to buy an M4 CSL, it was going to be the most amount of money I had ever spent on a car, so I looked at a number of cars and tried some to see what I thought of them to drive and also as an ownership proposition. I tried the Ferrari F12, Aston Martin Vantage F1 and had a serious look at the 911T and also the Cayman GT4. So for me a used fezza and a number of new cars were direct competitors for my actual car.
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05-28-2023, 12:20 AM | #117 | |
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05-28-2023, 04:01 AM | #118 | |
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I tried the Ferrari because it was just about in budget and I wanted a Ferrari, but decided against it because of some comments from owners. But I love my car, I’m really happy with it, yes it’s a bit of a handful when you’re on it but it’s drivable and enjoyable when you’re not. Is it the best car I’ve ever driven? No. That car remains the Porsche 997 911 GT3RS 4.0. That is a car that I think is nigh on impossible to surpass, a marvel of engineering and driving engagement. Easily, the best car I’ve ever driven, everything about it is spectacular! However, I will say that the way the chassis feels on the M4CSL is very similar to that (I suspect it’s the rose jointed suspension). It’s one of the reasons why I think my car is pretty awesome, not perfect but amazing to drive nonetheless. In the dry, it’s just brilliant!
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05-31-2023, 05:34 AM | #119 |
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06-28-2023, 03:53 AM | #120 |
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This video may very well be single-handedly killing the CSL market.
They need to redo this with the CSL on Cup 2R. The delta is large, but not this large. |
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06-28-2023, 09:13 AM | #121 | |
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I don't think people fully grasp what an absolute UNIT the RS is. Forget the fact that it's a GT3. It's a FULL downforce car. I have not owned a GT3, but I've driven several and moreover have had discussions with people who track their GT3's often. And have owned multiple generations of GT3's that they have extensively tracked. The 992 RS is an absolute monster. The CSL, for all it's capabilities, is a 4 seat coupe which can be had with a 4 cylinder. Vs something that starts out as a 2+2 rear engined sports car now sporting a 4 liter 500 HP N/A engine with well over 1000 lbs of downforce. I think it shows just how strong the CSL is, and what kind of power it's putting down. |
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06-28-2023, 09:49 AM | #122 | |
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06-28-2023, 11:29 AM | #123 | |
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If you don't want to see any kind of moral victory, I get it, but it shows potential in my mind. |
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06-28-2023, 12:14 PM | #124 | |
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What I'm surprised about was BMW not putting a set of regular Cup2 on. The car doesn't come with the PS4 so they already deviated from the OEM configuration. Why drop down to the OEM M4 tire, just because you have them laying around? It sucks either way because now the car is represented in the way it should be. |
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06-28-2023, 12:37 PM | #125 | |
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I see potential as you do, which is why I'd like to see the car tested again on the correct tires. It's unfortunate that reviews like this one, which are quite influential whether I like it or not, have negatively impacted the perception of the M4 CSL. The car is fabulous. Probably the best thing going for it reputation-wise is that 7:17 Ring time from sport auto. |
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06-28-2023, 12:53 PM | #126 | |
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Plus, the PS4's are the hardest tires. So they are the least likely to get grip in the cold. Finally, Jason said BMW could not get Cup 2's because of supply issues I sound like I'm making excuses for the CSL but I'm not. I honestly not the hugest fan. But I'd like to see this run again in the right weather, with the right tires. |
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06-28-2023, 01:13 PM | #127 |
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That’s not how it works. PS4s actually grip better in the cold than most <200 TW and R-comps because they’re designed to work in a much wider operating range. Track-focused tires need far more heat to grip than street tires.
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06-28-2023, 01:35 PM | #128 | |||
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06-28-2023, 01:35 PM | #129 |
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It wasn't that cold to prevent any tire from reaching ideal operating temp after a lap or two. It felt like Camisa played the cold angle to dramatize the absolute tire mis-match. Cup2Rs are not your average r-comp with uncanny short term grip only exacerbating the mismatch. The order won't change but on a fast track like WS that favors high HP the CSL can do better. I should get out there later this year - I'm no RP but know the track well.
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06-28-2023, 03:49 PM | #130 | |
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Maybe there’s a reason the CSL showed up to a track test against two spicy cars without the OEM tire firmest… just saying. Optimal temps for an R-Compound tire are WAY up there compared to more street-oriented rubber. I would love to hear a Michelin Engineer comment on where the break-even temperature is between the PS4S and the Cup2R. My gut says a lot of people here might be surprised. |
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06-28-2023, 04:19 PM | #131 | ||
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Price-wise, these cars are not even in the same category ($140K vs $260K with similar options). People looking to pay CSL-money are not cross-shopping for a GT3 RS. I love Cammisa, but it is a little silly to make a video to compare these cars, really. One could argue the big looser of this comparison is the GT3 RS because the performance of the C8 Z06 was pretty darn close to that of the P-car in the video. And it's $120K less expensive than the GT3 RS!!! That's the big surprise here. Quote:
That being said, we have to be careful not "hyper focusing" on a single race –especially one that is fundamentally plagued by tire/cold temp issues– to reach a final conclusion on these cars. I would point to the following results as perhaps a better indicator of these (and similar) cars' performance: Car / Nordschleife Lap time / Price (w similar options) Porsche 911 GT3 RS (992) / 6:44.848 / $259,760 Porsche 911 GT3 (992) / 6:55.34 / $211,200 C8 Z06 (prototype non-official time) / 7:12.64 / $145,000 BMW M4 CSL / 7:15.677 / $140,000 Porsche 911 Turbo S (992) / 7:17.3 / $251,520 Merc-AMG GT63s (X290) / 7:23.009 / $176,000 Porsche Carrera GTS (992) / 7:25.632 / $181,600 Porsche Carrera S (992) / 7:30.41 / $161,750 Audi R8 V10 Plus (4S) / 7:32 / $198,590 When taking these results into consideration, I think the CSL provides awesome bang for the buck return in performance. There are several highly desirable/more expensive cars on this list that under perform relative to the CSL.
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Current: 2023 Frozen Brooklyn Grey ///M4 CSL Retired: 2022 Frozen Dark Grey ///M3 ||| 2021 Tanzanite Blue X7 ///M50i ||| 2016 Mineral Silver X5 40e Last edited by Asymmetrick; 06-28-2023 at 05:45 PM.. Reason: Typos and clarity edits |
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06-28-2023, 05:32 PM | #132 |
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Lol. Here come all the reasons why it’s not as fast. If it loses in a straight line, it’s always the same comment. Take it to the turns/ not built for drag racing. Loses in the turns, it’s a sedan/ not a sports car No downforce blah blah. It’s a cool car!! Most won’t see a track and if the do , will never put to their limit. We can’t drive that good 🤣😘. Again, who is gonna leave it stock anyway😃. So it will be faster after the DP/Tune and some E
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