[Asymmetrick]

Originally Posted by Rafichicago

I will never change my mind that M4 and 911 are not in the same class of vehicles.

Well, then there is not point debating. Agree to disagree, I guess.

Originally Posted by Rafichicago

I might’ve deviated from original point and that was a mistake however there’s no need for higher degree to understand what this is about.

Yes, I think the debate went off track (no pun intended ).

That being said, there is no problem in trying to achieve a "higher degree of understanding" in our debates (otherwise it is pointless to have a forum to discuss together, right?).

Like many car enthusiasts, I hold the view that there are two classes of 911s: The GT and the non-GT cars. The GT models are very, very special cars (but not necessarily alone in their class anymore, as proven by the C8 Z06 in this Hagerty video). The non-GT cars –especially the lower models of the series– have many worthy competitors with similar or better performance at a similar price point (including the G82 comp).

Originally Posted by Rafichicago

M3/4 is a great car for what it is at cheaper price point for the most part.

Agreed, the M3 and M4 are awesome cars and great value for their price.

[02M3ForMe]

Originally Posted by edwinm3

Please describe driving hard, conditions etc

Anything more than a typical 3-mile test drive around a dealership in a brand new car still far from its break-in service. It's pretty clear even at 5/10ths that the G8x and 992 non-GT cars are on par. Are 992s better driving machines? Yes, but not dramatically so, and certainly not to the extent that they'd be considered in a different class.

[edwinm3]

Originally Posted by HudsonHornett

They are comparable. Period. This is coming from somebody that has actually owned 911s and M cars.

I’ve owned many M cars and GT3s, tons of track time, they’re very different.

[edwinm3]

Originally Posted by 02M3ForMe

Anything more than a typical 3-mile test drive around a dealership in a brand new car still far from its break-in service. It's pretty clear even at 5/10ths that the G8x and 992 non-GT cars are on par. Are 992s better driving machines? Yes, but not dramatically so, and certainly not to the extent that they'd be considered in a different class.

understood

[HudsonHornett]

Originally Posted by edwinm3

I’ve owned many M cars and GT3s, tons of track time, they’re very different.

Same and for the most part, I'd even agree. But the CSL is similar in ethos and feel to a 911 GT3.

[HudsonHornett]

Originally Posted by Rafichicago

The whole point was this. The thread title is about CSL and GT3rs and Corvette Z06. That was originally the case. I will never change my mind that M4 and 911 are not in the same class of vehicles. They just aren’t. If someone says that choice between the two was made based on practicality it means that shopping for 911 has never happened. The purpose of that car is not practicality and you do not have to see/drive one to know that. They are different vehicles for different purpose. For some weird reason M3M4 owners love to compare those cars. You don’t see that often on Porsche forums. I might’ve deviated from original point and that was a mistake however there’s no need for higher degree to understand what this is about. M3/4 is a great car for what it is at cheaper price point for the most part. It is just not direct competitor. And that is the whole point. Just like S class is not for Flying Spur although I think there’s more in common between those two. F90 that I own also was talked about that it can challenge supercars. Like in what ?0-60 ? I love that car but I also realize what it is and what it isn’t. And I don’t have to own supercar to know that it is phenomenal for what it is. But it’s in different league.

I get that you don't think that the 911 and M4 are competitors but I assume you get that others might, right?

When I was offered the opportunity to buy an M4 CSL, it was going to be the most amount of money I had ever spent on a car, so I looked at a number of cars and tried some to see what I thought of them to drive and also as an ownership proposition. I tried the Ferrari F12, Aston Martin Vantage F1 and had a serious look at the 911T and also the Cayman GT4. So for me a used fezza and a number of new cars were direct competitors for my actual car.

[Rafichicago]

Originally Posted by HudsonHornett

I get that you don't think that the 911 and M4 are competitors but I assume you get that others might, right?

When I was offered the opportunity to buy an M4 CSL, it was going to be the most amount of money I had ever spent on a car, so I looked at a number of cars and tried some to see what I thought of them to drive and also as an ownership proposition. I tried the Ferrari F12, Aston Martin Vantage F1 and had a serious look at the 911T and also the Cayman GT4. So for me a used fezza and a number of new cars were direct competitors for my actual car.

Comparing new to used seems even less reasonable. To each it’s own I guess. Some people love to buy new. I tend not to pay the most for depreciating assets. I don’t thing it’s wrong. Without all the others buying new we wouldn’t have used cars after all. I’ve had 3 brand new cars in my life. Next day they become used vehicles. Never again. I wish you all the best in your journey. You can compare mini cooper to m4 if you wish. They can be comparable I guess. I’ve had one it’s phenomenal car.

[HudsonHornett]

Originally Posted by Rafichicago

Comparing new to used seems even less reasonable. To each it’s own I guess. Some people love to buy new. I tend not to pay the most for depreciating assets. I don’t thing it’s wrong. Without all the others buying new we wouldn’t have used cars after all. I’ve had 3 brand new cars in my life. Next day they become used vehicles. Never again. I wish you all the best in your journey. You can compare mini cooper to m4 if you wish. They can be comparable I guess. I’ve had one it’s phenomenal car.

So have I and if it was a “Z Cars” Mini Cooper, I think I’d have to consider it. From what I’ve seen they are awesome!

I tried the Ferrari because it was just about in budget and I wanted a Ferrari, but decided against it because of some comments from owners.

But I love my car, I’m really happy with it, yes it’s a bit of a handful when you’re on it but it’s drivable and enjoyable when you’re not. Is it the best car I’ve ever driven? No. That car remains the Porsche 997 911 GT3RS 4.0. That is a car that I think is nigh on impossible to surpass, a marvel of engineering and driving engagement. Easily, the best car I’ve ever driven, everything about it is spectacular! However, I will say that the way the chassis feels on the M4CSL is very similar to that (I suspect it’s the rose jointed suspension). It’s one of the reasons why I think my car is pretty awesome, not perfect but amazing to drive nonetheless. In the dry, it’s just brilliant!

[Blue Angel]

Originally Posted by georgebmwM3

The ZL1 is no joke. It’s an amazing car for the money and performance. It’s not as nice as the M3 in quality, but makes up for it in different ways.

Like looks and sound

[02M3ForMe]

This video may very well be single-handedly killing the CSL market.

They need to redo this with the CSL on Cup 2R. The delta is large, but not this large.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by 02M3ForMe

This video may very well be single-handedly killing the CSL market.

They need to redo this with the CSL on Cup 2R. The delta is large, but not this large.

I think the opposite. If a CSL on non Cup 2's, in cold weather, can show this kind of performance vs. a GT3RS and a Z06, I personally consider it a victory.

I don't think people fully grasp what an absolute UNIT the RS is. Forget the fact that it's a GT3. It's a FULL downforce car. I have not owned a GT3, but I've driven several and moreover have had discussions with people who track their GT3's often. And have owned multiple generations of GT3's that they have extensively tracked. The 992 RS is an absolute monster.

The CSL, for all it's capabilities, is a 4 seat coupe which can be had with a 4 cylinder. Vs something that starts out as a 2+2 rear engined sports car now sporting a 4 liter 500 HP N/A engine with well over 1000 lbs of downforce. I think it shows just how strong the CSL is, and what kind of power it's putting down.

[02M3ForMe]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

I think the opposite. If a CSL on non Cup 2's, in cold weather, can show this kind of performance vs. a GT3RS and a Z06, I personally consider it a victory.

I don't think people fully grasp what an absolute UNIT the RS is. Forget the fact that it's a GT3. It's a FULL downforce car. I have not owned a GT3, but I've driven several and moreover have had discussions with people who track their GT3's often. And have owned multiple generations of GT3's that they have extensively tracked. The 992 RS is an absolute monster.

The CSL, for all it's capabilities, is a 4 seat coupe which can be had with a 4 cylinder. Vs something that starts out as a 2+2 rear engined sports car now sporting a 4 liter 500 HP N/A engine with well over 1000 lbs of downforce. I think it shows just how strong the CSL is, and what kind of power it's putting down.

For most actual cross-shoppers, the true comparison is with the similarly-priced Z06. For a CSL-nameplated car to be that outclassed by the Z06, combined with other mixed reviews that complain that M didn’t go far enough with the car, makes the CSL look very overpriced at $140k. I don’t see any moral victory in that video at all.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by 02M3ForMe

For most actual cross-shoppers, the true comparison is with the similarly-priced Z06. For a CSL-nameplated car to be that outclassed by the Z06, combined with other mixed reviews that complain that M didn’t go far enough with the car, makes the CSL look very overpriced at $140k. I don’t see any moral victory in that video at all.

The Z06 is based off a sports car, then add a more track oriented suspension and a flat plane crank V8. Again, the CSL is based off a heavy personal luxury coupe with 4 seats that starts life with a 4 banger. And again, the CSL is on unequal tires, and it's cold. Like real cold.

If you don't want to see any kind of moral victory, I get it, but it shows potential in my mind.

[strohw]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

And again, the CSL is on unequal tires, and it's cold. Like real cold.
.

Help me out with the temperature thing. Why does it matter if it's cold out? Each vehicle will plenty warm by the time they try to set a lap time. As long as all the vehicles were run on the same day in relatively the same temperature window then it won't matter.

What I'm surprised about was BMW not putting a set of regular Cup2 on. The car doesn't come with the PS4 so they already deviated from the OEM configuration. Why drop down to the OEM M4 tire, just because you have them laying around? It sucks either way because now the car is represented in the way it should be.

[02M3ForMe]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

The Z06 is based off a sports car, then add a more track oriented suspension and a flat plane crank V8. Again, the CSL is based off a heavy personal luxury coupe with 4 seats that starts life with a 4 banger. And again, the CSL is on unequal tires, and it's cold. Like real cold.

If you don't want to see any kind of moral victory, I get it, but it shows potential in my mind.

When it comes to generating market demand for the car, I don't think the CSL earns any credit for having the least impressive foundation. I have little faith in prospective buyers' imagination when it comes to extrapolating the CSL's true performance with the correct tires.

I see potential as you do, which is why I'd like to see the car tested again on the correct tires. It's unfortunate that reviews like this one, which are quite influential whether I like it or not, have negatively impacted the perception of the M4 CSL. The car is fabulous. Probably the best thing going for it reputation-wise is that 7:17 Ring time from sport auto.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by strohw

Help me out with the temperature thing. Why does it matter if it's cold out? Each vehicle will plenty warm by the time they try to set a lap time. As long as all the vehicles were run on the same day in relatively the same temperature window then it won't matter.

What I'm surprised about was BMW not putting a set of regular Cup2 on. The car doesn't come with the PS4 so they already deviated from the OEM configuration. Why drop down to the OEM M4 tire, just because you have them laying around? It sucks either way because now the car is represented in the way it should be.

Cold..because the cars are all on summer tires not designed to work in the cold and it was near freezing. Thus all three cars are suffering from a deficit of mechanical grip. So that gives the advantage to....the car with the most aero grip. Of which the RS has the most, the Z06 with the Z07 package has the next most and the CSL has the least.

Plus, the PS4's are the hardest tires. So they are the least likely to get grip in the cold.

Finally, Jason said BMW could not get Cup 2's because of supply issues

I sound like I'm making excuses for the CSL but I'm not. I honestly not the hugest fan. But I'd like to see this run again in the right weather, with the right tires.

[FC4]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

Plus, the PS4's are the hardest tires. So they are the least likely to get grip in the cold.

That’s not how it works. PS4s actually grip better in the cold than most <200 TW and R-comps because they’re designed to work in a much wider operating range. Track-focused tires need far more heat to grip than street tires.

[strohw]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

Cold..because the cars are all on summer tires not designed to work in the cold and it was near freezing. Thus all three cars are suffering from a deficit of mechanical grip. So that gives the advantage to....the car with the most aero grip. Of which the RS has the most, the Z06 with the Z07 package has the next most and the CSL has the least.

The lap times they've posted aren't done from a cold tire. Once they're warmed up they're fine. Which they will be before setting their best hot lap time. If anything, the colder surface pulling heat out the tires is going to benefit the PS4 because they turn into a greasy mess from overheating much much quicker than the Cup 2 RS.

Finally, Jason said BMW could not get Cup 2's because of supply issues

They couldn't get Cup 2RS, they still could have put some regular Cup 2 on the car. Which would have been a better representation than the PS4 BMW spec they're ran.

I sound like I'm making excuses for the CSL but I'm not. I honestly not the hugest fan. But I'd like to see this run again in the right weather, with the right tires.

I don't think that. I just don't believe the temperature played a part in the times, just the wrong tire itself.

[Hit_Apex]

Originally Posted by FC4

That’s not how it works. PS4s actually grip better in the cold than most <200 TW and R-comps because they’re designed to work in a much wider operating range. Track-focused tires need far more heat to grip than street tires.

It wasn't that cold to prevent any tire from reaching ideal operating temp after a lap or two. It felt like Camisa played the cold angle to dramatize the absolute tire mis-match. Cup2Rs are not your average r-comp with uncanny short term grip only exacerbating the mismatch. The order won't change but on a fast track like WS that favors high HP the CSL can do better. I should get out there later this year - I'm no RP but know the track well.

[Blue Angel]

Originally Posted by FC4

That’s not how it works. PS4s actually grip better in the cold than most <200 TW and R-comps because they’re designed to work in a much wider operating range. Track-focused tires need far more heat to grip than street tires.

This.

Maybe there’s a reason the CSL showed up to a track test against two spicy cars without the OEM tire firmest… just saying.

Optimal temps for an R-Compound tire are WAY up there compared to more street-oriented rubber. I would love to hear a Michelin Engineer comment on where the break-even temperature is between the PS4S and the Cup2R. My gut says a lot of people here might be surprised.

[Asymmetrick]

Originally Posted by 02M3ForMe

This video may very well be single-handedly killing the CSL market.

They need to redo this with the CSL on Cup 2R. The delta is large, but not this large.

I am not sure I see your point that the video has "single-handedly kill[ed] the CSL market". Do you know a reasonable person who predicted/expected the CSL would beat the GT3 RS when Hagerty announced this match up? I don't.

Price-wise, these cars are not even in the same category ($140K vs $260K with similar options). People looking to pay CSL-money are not cross-shopping for a GT3 RS. I love Cammisa, but it is a little silly to make a video to compare these cars, really.

One could argue the big looser of this comparison is the GT3 RS because the performance of the C8 Z06 was pretty darn close to that of the P-car in the video. And it's $120K less expensive than the GT3 RS!!! That's the big surprise here.

Originally Posted by 02M3ForMe

For most actual cross-shoppers, the true comparison is with the similarly-priced Z06. For a CSL-nameplated car to be that outclassed by the Z06, combined with other mixed reviews that complain that M didn’t go far enough with the car, makes the CSL look very overpriced at $140k. I don’t see any moral victory in that video at all.

I agree with you that the C8 Z06 is an awesome sports car, especially for a MSRP of ~$145K. It deserves much respect for its performance.

That being said, we have to be careful not "hyper focusing" on a single race –especially one that is fundamentally plagued by tire/cold temp issues– to reach a final conclusion on these cars. I would point to the following results as perhaps a better indicator of these (and similar) cars' performance:

Car / Nordschleife Lap time / Price (w similar options)

Porsche 911 GT3 RS (992) / 6:44.848 / $259,760

Porsche 911 GT3 (992) / 6:55.34 / $211,200

C8 Z06 (prototype non-official time) / 7:12.64 / $145,000

BMW M4 CSL / 7:15.677 / $140,000

Porsche 911 Turbo S (992) / 7:17.3 / $251,520

Merc-AMG GT63s (X290) / 7:23.009 / $176,000

Porsche Carrera GTS (992) / 7:25.632 / $181,600

Porsche Carrera S (992) / 7:30.41 / $161,750

Audi R8 V10 Plus (4S) / 7:32 / $198,590

When taking these results into consideration, I think the CSL provides awesome bang for the buck return in performance. There are several highly desirable/more expensive cars on this list that under perform relative to the CSL.

[G MONEY]

Lol. Here come all the reasons why it’s not as fast. If it loses in a straight line, it’s always the same comment. Take it to the turns/ not built for drag racing. Loses in the turns, it’s a sedan/ not a sports car No downforce blah blah. It’s a cool car!! Most won’t see a track and if the do , will never put to their limit. We can’t drive that good 🤣😘. Again, who is gonna leave it stock anyway😃. So it will be faster after the DP/Tune and some E