[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by deneed4spd

M4 CSL is 500 lbs lighter than the BW. I think 500 lbs easily neutralizes the 120 extra ponies.

You missed the part I mentioned about how this track favors high horsepower cars.... which is why the heavier z06 keeps up with the much nimbler gt3rs. So no, 500 lbs doesn't automatically "neutralize" 120 extra ponies.

[georgebmwM3]

The ZL1 is no joke. It’s an amazing car for the money and performance. It’s not as nice as the M3 in quality, but makes up for it in different ways.

[Nahlem]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

Me and you both, I'll be one of the last holdouts. I'll likely be that guy in 20-year-old ICE vehicles.

But in the meantime, we'll soon have a bunch of 2-second EVs all around us pumping out fake sounds. Kids are going to love it. They'll "tune" their EVs to be crazy fast, even if the range is only 50 miles.

Crazy acceleration with fake engine noises blaring out through external speakers will be the craze.

The youth will go from burble tunes to audio hack "tunes". Running through your neighborhood soon will be EVs with artificial soundtracks...first with Stang, Chevy and Vette V8 soundtracks, and then they'll graduate to Lambo, Ferrari, and AMG sound enhancements. You'll see a Kia EV leaving you for dead when the light turns green, complete with a GT3 engine pouring out from it. We'll miss the simplicity of ASD only affecting the interior.

We better enjoy these days, don't take them for granted. Many of us are going to struggle to remain as excited as car enthusiasts in the future, and the future is right around the corner.

Many of us will remain "stuck in the past". We're going to look just like those old guys at today's meets with their 60's muscle cars, meets filled today with Porsches, M cars, AMGs, C8s, and Hemis. Kids will simply ignore us and our "fast" 3-second ICE cars, as they jump in their escape-velocity, less-than-2-second EVs (with the V10 soundtrack pouring out).

Heh this, but again nothing beats a proper sounding ICE(when it comes to sound at least), but i think we are a bit mistaken when it comes to cars in the future, EV and other types of alternative fuels will be the norm later down the road, i think we will see ICE cars like these ones still be around sense they are a minority of cars out there even today in terms of performance and who actually buys CSL models or GT3RS's models.

But the fuel for them will be probably bought at specialized stores.

We will see more different leagues of competing cars you will have the EV league and you will have an ICE league and so on and so forth. I think already as it is you shouldn't compare EV cars to ICE cars in performance sense they are competing in completely different leagues.

What i am very interested in seeing is how EVs will translate to rally driving. Because watching Rally is like watching people jump out of a air plane for parachuting but without the parachute. Because its that insane.

Its like oh look at that curve on that road with a bunch of trees in close proximity to it, oh and here comes a rally driver jumping like a mad man on that curve and landing with one wheel on the road without hitting all those trees there. That is some wicked driving. Because i think that is not gonna happen with Lithium tech its weight is to much compared to how much a rally car weights so solid state will probably be the way to go for those. I mean an average 80 kwh battery weights in at around 1 000 pounds (414) kgs while a similar solid state will be around 333 pounds that is (150 kg).

I would love seeing the i4 m50 that i drive with an similar solid state battery and how it would compare it both weight, performance and range with such a setup.

[buckybadger]

In simple, BMW has fallen behind. Lot of gimmicks like efficient dynamics and what not. Gone are the days when BMW used to be BMW.

https://youtu.be/vX3GsS88zWo

[dezzracer]

Originally Posted by Nick71692

great video...outcome is to be expected. The BMW motor is a monster.

Especially on the top end. I’ve never owned a car that keeps pulling so hard after 120

[dezzracer]

Originally Posted by IsleOfMs

It’s not their fault btw. Everyone is carrying way fewer sizes in the PSC2 (both the R and the 240tw).

Even the Michelin website has delisted many sizes (including what I just wore out on my car). Tirerack says Michelin hasn’t official discontinued these sizes but is not listing them as backorder either. For now, those sizes just don’t exist anymore

What’s worse is that tirerack currently doesn’t list any R compounds from Toyo, Nitto, Michelin or pirelli in my size. Again, not just “out of stock” but “those don’t exist”.

Saw an article recently about the toxins released by tires and an anticipation of new eco regulations and wonder what’s gonna happen to trackdays and autocrosses.

Could be unrelated. Maybe the demand for smallish race tires is low these days but either way the future could be grim. In the meantime I’m going have to buy new wheels to run larger tires than the performance tire package wheels I’ve been running.

The leftist greenies want to outlaw anything that’s fun. That includes race cars and yes, their tires too.

[Kevin_The_Clean1]

Originally Posted by Hit_Apex

Very well done segmenting out the course features and performance differences on a track which I've logged hundreds of laps on with all tires types. The reference to the ambient temp (which I guess was about 45F) felt deliberate in an attempt to excuse the street tires on the CSL. It has little effect after a warm up lap. I am actually surprised the difference wasn't larger. No doubt in my mind that the CSL on R-comps would've slotted in at 7th a few tenths off the Huracan or 2.5 - 3s faster.

I also would've liked to see what the CSL put down with the same tires as the others cars. As much as I love all my M machines, that Porsche is pretty damn impressive in all regards. All these cars are great rides. NO matter how you slice it.

[salmankhan886111@gmail.co]

I am actually surprised the difference wasn't larger. No doubt in my mind that the CSL on R-comps would've slotted in at 7th a few tenths off the Huracan or 2.5 - 3s faster.

[G30M]

well i can tell you that over 24 hrs of racing at the Nurburgring 2 days ago, the results of these cars are as such -

1. Ferrari 296 GT3
2. BMW M4 GT3
3. Mercedes AMG GT3
4. Mercedes AMG GT3
5. Porsche 911 GT3 R

the M4 started from 33rd position, overtook everyone just about, and they finished 26s behind the Ferrari ...


https://www.24h-rennen.de/wp-content...sult_Final.pdf

[Montaver]

Cold temps are great for engines, any reduction in grip will of been more than partially offset by the thicker air. A cool track is a fast track in my experience, particularly low ambient temps with direct sunlight. Shame the CSL wasn’t on cup2R’s, probably cost it 1.5-2.5 seconds.

[2008M36MT]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

You missed the part I mentioned about how this track favors high horsepower cars.... which is why the heavier z06 keeps up with the much nimbler gt3rs. So no, 500 lbs doesn't automatically "neutralize" 120 extra ponies.

Why are you getting so defensive? BMWs most hardcore, lightest offering should be nowhere near the Blackwing, but it is, and that’s too close for comfort. When some of us start adding up all the factors, styling (more subjective), performance, price, we can draw a reasonable conclusion that this car is serously unimpressive. If I was willing to drop that much coin on a car, which I’m not, it certainly would not be the CSL. The market at large seems to echo that sentiment which is why the CSL is not moving at MSRP. Also, you seem to be either dismossing nonchalantly or missing some parts of what others are saying, including what was said about the CSLs configuration that could bolster its performance in those weather conditions.
All that said, it’s just an opinion, you have yours others have theirs.

[thaalrasha]

Originally Posted by M4ord

The short answer is they don’t need to. The long answer is $$$ in development. BMW Group sells 2 million more cars a year than Porsche does, but doesn’t feel the need to compete with cars that are only made in limited quantity. Porsche on the other hands makes sports cars all in limited quantity and recently moved in the SUV market. And if not mistaken, make more money in SUVs now. In my opinion I think we are lucky to have a M division at all.

It's exactly that, they had a chance to do an M exclusive model and instead of doing a purpose built sports car (like the other 2 compared here) to succeed the M1, they made a luxury whale with the XM.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by 2008M36MT

Why are you getting so defensive? BMWs most hardcore, lightest offering should be nowhere near the Blackwing, but it is, and that’s too close for comfort. When some of us start adding up all the factors, styling (more subjective), performance, price, we can draw a reasonable conclusion that this car is serously unimpressive. If I was willing to drop that much coin on a car, which I’m not, it certainly would not be the CSL. The market at large seems to echo that sentiment which is why the CSL is not moving at MSRP. Also, you seem to be either dismossing nonchalantly or missing some parts of what others are saying, including what was said about the CSLs configuration that could bolster its performance in those weather conditions.
All that said, it’s just an opinion, you have yours others have theirs.

Not getting defensive nor am I dismissing anything. I don't have a stake in this, I'm just stating objectively that saying the CT5V BW beat the CSL is a very nearsighted comment which doesn't consider the factors involved (and at a 0.1s difference at that). There's a reason the leaderboard at the end of the video has an asterisk next to the 3 cars in this video with the footnote "freezing temperatures*. Not to mention the fact that this track favors higher horsepower cars. So with those things considered, the CT5V BW is at an advantage (was run in much warmer conditions and has a healthy extra 120hp). Also the BW being a manual isn't a disadvantage. We've already seen Randy Pobst set a faster lap time in the 6MT M4 vs. the M4comp.

Now saying things like, "it shouldn't be anywhere near the BW" or "it's too close for comfort" - those are opinions, and I haven't nor will I challenge that. So is the opinion that it's "unimpressive". I'm not discussing if the CSL is "impressive" or not.

For the record I also wouldn't spend my money on the CSL. At that price I'd probably be shopping for a (much slower) 911 carrera S - for my own personal reasons.

[ASAP]

i don't know what you boys are talking about... the fellas in the xdrive vs rwd thread told me the CS is the new top dog with AWD and that weigh savings are negligible across the board... so i hope this is reran with a CS

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by ASAP

i don't know what you boys are talking about... the fellas in the xdrive vs rwd thread told me the CS is the new top dog with AWD and that weigh savings are negligible across the board... so i hope this is reran with a CS

but it's about the FEEEL

[Hit_Apex]

Originally Posted by ASAP

i don't know what you boys are talking about... the fellas in the xdrive vs rwd thread told me the CS is the new top dog with AWD and that weigh savings are negligible across the board... so i hope this is reran with a CS

LOL. They preach that the added weight of the xDrive is largely compensated by performance (ie drive out of corners). This may be have some merit on a smaller track among cars where the xDrive system is the only weight difference. I too hope Probst gets a shot at big Willow in a CS.

[Rafichicago]

Originally Posted by Asymmetrick

But it does! Think about it:

BMW did build a ~145K car (the M4 CSL) that outperforms other ~145K$ cars (i.e., Porsche 911C2S or 718GT4, comparably equipped with PCCB, Carbon roof, Carbon bucket seats, etc).

Even the 911GT3RS get beat by more expensive cars. It is unfair to compare it to the Rimac Nevera or Mercedes AMG One (i.e., the current Nurburgring champ). By the same token, why would anyone feel the need to compare the M4 CSL with the 911 GT3RS, a car almost twice its price?

For the money, the M4 CSL is delivering awesome performance IMO. You are getting 911 GTS performance with the M4 CSL for the price of a comparably equipped Carrera 2S. That is not "on par" with the competition, this IS BMW beating the competition.

—-
PS. The overall winner of this comparison is the Z06. Its performance is nearly that of the GT3RS, but for much less $$$.

Trying to understand the logic here. The slower car is better because it’s cheaper that is exactly what you are saying here. Can you explain how that matters in terms of track time ? GT3 RS is not exactly $300K car either.

[WraithM5]

Originally Posted by FC4

More impressive is the Plaid, faster than both...

No one is impressed by anything the plaid does. The rest of the car is a complete dumpster.

[FC4]

Originally Posted by WraithM5

No one is impressed by anything the plaid does. The rest of the car is a complete dumpster.

Sure.

[BIGW0RM]

Originally Posted by WraithM5

No one is impressed by anything the plaid does. The rest of the car is a complete dumpster.

Agreed. Other than 0-60, its worthless to me.

[m3nerd]

Not sure about who is fastest etc but wanted to say that if you listen to the first 3 seconds of the video I dig the M4 exhaust note! And that's against the hard-to-compete-with flat plane crank NA V8 of the Z06!

Compare this to the new C63 AMG that is a 4 cylinder 2 liter engine... How can they still call it a "63" with a straight face...

We should be happy for what we have.

[Ristau]

Originally Posted by NotSharocks

LOL a Cadillac land barge is faster around a racetrack then the purpose built M car.

Love it.

"Land Barge"

It's like the exact same weight as the M5 CS (which is a better comparison than the M4 CSL).

GM knows how to make performance cars. This isn't your Grandma's El Dorado. Still think BMW has better quality/tech though

EDIT: I think maybe I'm mistaken what you meant by that. Now that I think about it the way I think you meant, it's pretty pathetic that the M5 CS is beaten out by the standard model CT5V, so it's even more ridiculous that the ultra-light M4 CSL is as well. Sorry about that