[adc]

I bet the sentiment would be different if the CSL had had a better showing. Everyone would be jumping up and down in triumph.

But yes, let's agree to bury it in the annals of history.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by adc

I bet the sentiment would be different if the CSL had had a better showing. Everyone would be jumping up and down in triumph.

But yes, let's agree to bury it in the annals of history.

The CSL showed perfectly fine for what it is. It isn't a GT3 and doesn't cost GT3 money. If BMW built a GT3 equivalent (...and I'm sure they could without issue; they have the resources), and subsequently charged GT3 money for it, everybody would complain about the expense and proclaim, "If I'm going to pay $200k-plus for a BMW, I'll just buy a Porsche!" People are quick to criticize BMW when things get expensive because at a certain price point they begin to encroach on Porsche territory and the buyer base isn't prepared to play that game. If certain aspects of the base were, they'd already be driving a Porsche 911 or Cayman variant. People are unreasonable. They want a BMW product on the level of a Porsche GT car, while still expecting BMW price points. It's just ridiculous. At the very least, all of the complainers should come on over to Porsche and buy at minimum a Carrera S/Cayman GT4 and enter the fray. Put your money where your mouths are.


P.S. If I can get my hands on a GT3 at $30k or less over sticker, I'm on it.....hell or high water. My Carrera S is already one hell of a car though.

[FTS]

Originally Posted by adc

I bet the sentiment would be different if the CSL had had a better showing. Everyone would be jumping up and down in triumph.

But yes, let's agree to bury it in the annals of history.

I am sure the discussion would have been different if the CSL was 'better' than the GT3. It will never be as long as BMW treats the customers as dump drivers that don't know how to use the car.

The reasons GT3 is a better performance car are severalfold. Adjustable suspension, rear weight bias, properly engineered and interchangeable engine and chassis components from the Cup car, etc.

Then again, I do not think there is really a "better" car for everyone. My driving style, for example, is really not conducive to extracting the most from front-engine, FWD, or AWD cars. After nearly, 30 years of being on racing circuits, driving amateurishly, and working as a suspension technician, I never figured how to drive those cars. The rear-engine with RWD is my sweet spot or a mid-engine RWD.

There may be a car out there that is universally the best of all performance cars, if I cannot drive it well, it won't be the best for me.

I am glad the CSL exists, not that I will be buying one, but it makes the market exciting and gives people like me the choice of at least considering alternatives.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by FTS

I am sure the discussion would have been different if the CSL was 'better' than the GT3. It will never be as long as BMW treats the customers as dump drivers that don't know how to use the car.

That's your interpretation of their approach??? Really? That's excessively juvenile. A high performance 3/4-Series will never be better than a GT3 because it isn't intended to ever be better than a GT3. It has nothing to do with dumb(?) drivers and everything to do with BMW's own market analysis and understanding where their products fall in the hierarchy of [performance] cars. Hell, BMW F8X GTS owners found that car too complicated and all BMW received were complaints. BMW gave it's owners just a small taste of what it's like to have a myriad of adjustments on an ///M product and people largely lost their minds......and BMW basically had to give the car away as a result. The BMW base that is ready for that level of immersion will move to Porsche. The rest...which comprises of the vast majority....will stay at BMW!


...and about knowing how to "use a performance car", the large majority of people couldn't handle an ///M product [on a race track] with all nannies turned completely off. Nannies give drivers a false sense of ability. A lot of us track, and I'm admittedly a bike guy more than a car guy when it comes to race track time/experience, but we are the minority of performance car owners. We are outliers and should not be considered a representation of car owners as a whole.

[FTS]

Great reply, thank you for your input, you have enlightened me.

[PLF69]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

That's your interpretation of their approach??? Really? That's excessively juvenile. A high performance 3/4-Series will never be better than a GT3 because it isn't intended to ever be better than a GT3. It has nothing to do with dumb(?) drivers and everything to do with BMW's own market analysis and understanding where their products fall in the hierarchy of [performance] cars. Hell, BMW F8X GTS owners found that car too complicated and all BMW received were complaints. BMW gave it's owners just a small taste of what it's like to have a myriad of adjustments on an ///M product and people largely lost their minds......and BMW basically had to give the car away as a result. The BMW base that is ready for that level of immersion will move to Porsche. The rest...which comprises of the vast majority....will stay at BMW!


...and about knowing how to "use a performance car", the large majority of people couldn't handle an ///M product [on a race track] with all nannies turned completely off. Nannies give drivers a false sense of ability. A lot of us track, and I'm admittedly a bike guy more than a car guy when it comes to race track time/experience, but we are the minority of performance car owners. We are outliers and should not be considered a representation of car owners as a whole.

I can agree for the Cayman/718 all nannies off, that car is so forgiving. 911s I've been in are either driven by experts or fully relying on Porsche's ultra sophisticated system to not kill themselves after 3 corners, it's mind boggling how Porsche's system combined with the huge grip of the rear tires can mask bad driving. I got genuinely scared in a 992 GTS on cup2s, that guy would not of completed a lap in an M3 even in MDM.

BMW's system + the front engine rear biased traction slaps you in the face more when you screw up. Anyways like you said we are only a tiny minority that will be on track DSC all off in our BMW's, main customer base would probably be scared to death about changing there oil, bleeding brakes or swapping pads and doing a bed in.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by PLF69

I can agree for the Cayman/718 all nannies off, that car is so forgiving. 911s I've been in are either driven by experts or fully relying on Porsche's ultra sophisticated system to not kill themselves after 3 corners, it's mind boggling how Porsche's system combined with the huge grip of the rear tires can mask bad driving. I got genuinely scared in a 992 GTS on cup2s, that guy would not of completed a lap in an M3 even in MDM.

BMW's system + the front engine rear biased traction slaps you in the face more when you screw up. Anyways like you said we are only a tiny minority that will be on track DSC all off in our BMW's, main customer base would probably be scared to death about changing there oil, bleeding brakes or swapping pads and doing a bed in.

Yep! ...and I'll be the first to admit I would not track my 992 C2S without the nannies on at this stage of the game. This is my first rear engine/RWD car, and I don't have the experience in Porsches to trust myself without any nannies whatsoever. No ego here! It's a very different drive than a front-engine/RWD vehicle.

When I first moved from the 600cc bikes to the Duc 848 ....and then to my current Panigale V4's 1000cc powerhouse motor, it took quite a bit of adjustment on the racetrack before I was as comfortable on the V4 as I was on the 848. I had to change my riding style quite a bit and things I could get away with on the 848 I could not get away with on the V4. In many ways, I'm STILL learning that bike and I've owned it since the V4 first came out.

[Asymmetrick]

Originally Posted by adc

I bet the sentiment would be different if the CSL had had a better showing. Everyone would be jumping up and down in triumph.

Of course the sentiment would be different if the CSL would outperform the 911 GT3, because it is ~40K less expensive than the GT3 (146K vs 184K USD). That outcome would be a total surprise to most observers, hence the "jumping up and down in triumph".

However, a reasonable person would expect that the most expensive car should have the best performance. Hopefully, you'll find this statement to be non-controversial. I just think it is not really insightful to contrast the performances of cars at different price points. Would you be surprised that the Rimac Nevera outperforms the 911 GT3 on many metrics? Of course not (well, I hope not).

If you absolutely want to compare the BMW M4 CSL to another car in the Porsche lineup, why don't you select one that is at the same price point as the CSL: the 911 Carrera S. The P-car is priced slightly above the CSL when matching options (CCB, Carbon Roof, PASM, SportDesign Package, etc; ~145K USD). I don't recall anyone doing a side-by-side comparison review of these two cars, but I would bet a lot of money that the CSL would vastly outperform its "price-matched" comparator in the Porsche lineup. Same money, different performance: that is newsworthy and worth "jumping up and down in triumph".

[adc]

Originally Posted by Asymmetrick

Of course the sentiment would be different if the CSL would outperform the 911 GT3, because it is ~40K less expensive than the GT3 (146K vs 184K USD). That outcome would be a total surprise to most observers, hence the "jumping up and down in triumph".

However, a reasonable person would expect that the most expensive car should have the best performance. Hopefully, you'll find this statement to be non-controversial. I just think it is not really insightful to contrast the performances of cars at different price points. Would you be surprised that the Rimac Nevera outperforms the 911 GT3 on many metrics? Of course not (well, I hope not).

If you absolutely want to compare the BMW M4 CSL to another car in the Porsche lineup, why don't you select one that is at the same price point as the CSL: the 911 Carrera S. The P-car is priced slightly above the CSL when matching options (CCB, Carbon Roof, PASM, SportDesign Package, etc; ~145K USD). I don't recall anyone doing a side-by-side comparison review of these two cars, but I would bet a lot of money that the CSL would vastly outperform its "price-matched" comparator in the Porsche lineup. Same money, different performance: that is newsworthy and worth "jumping up and down in triumph".

Then let’s compare it to the other 2 seater, performance Porsche. The GT4.

The 911 is a street oriented 4 seater, not the same car.

Go ahead, jump up and down all you want.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by adc

Then let’s compare it to the other 2 seater, performance Porsche. The GT4.

The 911 is a street oriented 4 seater, not the same car.

Go ahead, jump up and down all you want.

Technically a 911 can be had without back seats as well.

[02M3ForMe]

Originally Posted by adc

Then let’s compare it to the other 2 seater, performance Porsche. The GT4.

The 911 is a street oriented 4 seater, not the same car.

Go ahead, jump up and down all you want.

CSL outperforms the 718 GT4 by a clear margin. No jumping up and down here; they’re different cars with their own unique merits.

After spending time with both, CSL is on par with 992 GTS Lightweight.

[Asymmetrick]

Originally Posted by adc

Then let’s compare it to the other 2 seater, performance Porsche. The GT4.

Sure, no problem:

Nürburgring Nordschleife best lap time:
718 Cayman GT4: 7:32.000 (Reference: Sport Auto - 5/2020)
M4 CSL: 7:15.677

Any other questions?

Originally Posted by adc

Go ahead, jump up and down all you want.

I'm not the "jumping up and down" type.

[adc]

Originally Posted by Asymmetrick

Sure, no problem:

Nürburgring Nordschleife best lap time:
718 Cayman GT4: 7:32.000 (Reference: Sport Auto - 5/2020)
M4 CSL: 7:15.677

Any other questions?




I'm not the "jumping up and down" type.

My bad, truly the keyboard got ahead of me. I didn't mean to bait or create a mini-controversy, I've meant to say, the GT4 RS.

Both the CSL and GT4 RS cost around $140k MSRP. The GT4 RS laps the Ring I think 6 seconds quicker than the CSL, but it is not just that which makes it better in my opinion.

It is a better high performance driving tool all-around: lighter, with more feedback, more nuance, much easier on consumables. It looks better (although I acknowledge this is very subjective). It sounds a lot better.

[02M3ForMe]

GT4 RS starts over $160k, and commands a market adjusted premium of nearly $100k over the CSL.

[Asymmetrick]

Originally Posted by adc

My bad, truly the keyboard got ahead of me. I didn't mean to bait or create a mini-controversy, I've meant to say, the GT4 RS. Both the CSL and GT4 RS cost around $140k MSRP.

This is incorrect. The M4 CSL is 145K USD (sold fully equipped). The GT4RS starts at 161K USD (zero option) and once equipped with the same options as the CSL (i.e., PCCB, Carbon parts, etc), it is well into the 172-175K range. This is a >25K price difference compared to the 145K CSL.

Porsche announced recently a price increase on its 718 lineup, so the analysis above is very conservative (www.roadandtrack.com/news/a43452311/2024-porsche-718-boxster-cayman-price-increase/).

Please check post #74 above regarding the value (or lack thereof) of comparing cars at different price points.

[PLF69]

Originally Posted by Asymmetrick

This is incorrect. The M4 CSL is 145K USD (sold fully equipped). The GT4RS starts at 161K USD (zero option) and once equipped with the same options as the CSL (i.e., PCCB, Carbon parts, etc), it is well into the 172-175K range. This is a >25K price difference compared to the 145K CSL.

Porsche announced today a price increase on its 718 lineup, so the analysis above is very conservative (www.roadandtrack.com/news/a43452311/2024-porsche-718-boxster-cayman-price-increase/).

Please check post #74 above regarding the value of comparing cars at different price points.

I thought the GT4/Spyder production was dead forever

[Vic55]

No skin here but was at the dealer yesterday for my GTS (service) and saw this machine--- 100k over ask so circa 300k. I didnt even check the msrp because... why LOL But the GM told me that's the starting point and he said he will probably get 80 over.

No way is the GT4RS even remotely in the same price ballpark marketwise. Even sticker to sticker isnt close.

[Juanero]

^at that price, the answer is 911.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by 02M3ForMe

GT4 RS starts over $160k, and commands a market adjusted premium of nearly $100k over the CSL.

Originally Posted by Asymmetrick

This is incorrect. The M4 CSL is 145K USD (sold fully equipped). The GT4RS starts at 161K USD (zero option) and once equipped with the same options as the CSL (i.e., PCCB, Carbon parts, etc), it is well into the 172-175K range. This is a >25K price difference compared to the 145K CSL.

Porsche announced recently a price increase on its 718 lineup, so the analysis above is very conservative (www.roadandtrack.com/news/a43452311/2024-porsche-718-boxster-cayman-price-increase/).

Please check post #74 above regarding the value (or lack thereof) of comparing cars at different price points.

Originally Posted by Vic55

No skin here but was at the dealer yesterday for my GTS (service) and saw this machine--- 100k over ask so circa 300k. I didnt even check the msrp because... why LOL But the GM told me that's the starting point and he said he will probably get 80 over.

No way is the GT4RS even remotely in the same price ballpark marketwise. Even sticker to sticker isnt close.

Thank you guys! People need to stop the nonsense already. Clearly there are a lot of people tapping fingers on a keyboard who don't have any idea whatsoever about the real cost(s) of obtaining GT Porsches. It is laughable that "MSRP" and "Porsche GT_" are even mentioned in the same sentence.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Thank you guys! People need to stop the nonsense already. Clearly there are a lot of people tapping fingers on a keyboard who don't have any idea whatsoever about the real cost(s) of obtaining GT Porsches. It is laughable that "MSRP" and "Porsche GT_" are even mentioned in the same sentence.

That depends where one lives...

I attended my first track day of the season this Thursday and there was a beautiful GT4RS in Arctic Grey Metallic. Very nice owner, and he paid MSRP for it. But it is still way more expensive than an M4 CSL...

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by 02M3ForMe

After spending time with both, CSL is on par with 992 GTS Lightweight.

^ This

[OTJeebus]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Thank you guys! People need to stop the nonsense already. Clearly there are a lot of people tapping fingers on a keyboard who don't have any idea whatsoever about the real cost(s) of obtaining GT Porsches. It is laughable that "MSRP" and "Porsche GT_" are even mentioned in the same sentence.

I had a 991.2 gt3 and took delivery of my 992 gt3 this month. I got both of those at MSRP.