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      05-15-2023, 01:33 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
There is a CSL I drive by every day that has been in the showroom sitting for almost 2 months now. No markup needed. No one wants to buy it.
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      05-15-2023, 01:59 PM   #46
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Not sure if you were being serious about how many people do that because when you look at the purpose of the CSL here, what is it’s purpose? Not even going to mention the GT lineup because we know what they’re built to do and their price tag associated with the experience.

I could get your perspective if you took an M8 GC at its price tag and asked that same question though.
Well I never tracked any of my M cars even though both My previous F80 M3/ F82 M4 were manual with lots of fun everywhere.
For F13 M6 and current F92 M8 it's different story. I enjoy their power/acceleration/luxurious as daily drive specially when folks behind the wheels of 911/AMG ask for some rolling funs
Not sure if M8 is a track car at all despite the M badge on it...
M8 has lots of things to put smile on your face other than track...
Again I didnt say M4 CSL or GT3 are not track cars. I just said at their price point it's too much risk to take them to the track where there is always possibility for an accident and then its hard to replace them.
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      05-15-2023, 02:11 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by AHall View Post
What is the better car for a daily driver with no intention of going to the track? I am in Texas with no twisty winding roads just big open freeways.
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      05-15-2023, 02:17 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by M6-Coupe View Post
Well I never tracked any of my M cars even though both My previous F80 M3/ F82 M4 were manual with lots of fun everywhere.
For F13 M6 and current F92 M8 it's different story. I enjoy their power/acceleration/luxurious as daily drive specially when folks behind the wheels of 911/AMG ask for some rolling funs
Not sure if M8 is a track car at all despite the M badge on it...
M8 has lots of things to put smile on your face other than track...
Again I didnt say M4 CSL or GT3 are not track cars. I just said at their price point it's too much risk to take them to the track where there is always possibility for an accident and then its hard to replace them.
You'd be surprised to see how an F92 can move I've tracked my F90 when I had it and of course the weight difference is apparent compared to my F87 but just about virtually any car can be tracked, how far you take it? That's where things start to get interesting.

I'd agree with you that the F92 can be enjoyed in other ways outside of the track though part of the appear of M cars is that they can dual purpose both quite well.

I'd feel much safer taking a GT car or the G82 CSL to a track vs driving through these now accident prone streets of NYC where everyone believes the highways are a glorified race track to "swim" through. Track insurance exists as does our road insurance when situations like these arise.

We're enthusiasts, we like playing with our toys no matter how expensive they become, money then becomes a byproduct of our excitement
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      05-15-2023, 04:47 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by g21 View Post
...not that i have ever been in one, but the hard core reviewers (those that track their cars and drive them on the road properly) say that the CSL is too wild, can't get power down, too loose.
With all due respect, there is no basis for the statement above. A vast majority of reviewers get the car from BMW for only 1 day –sometimes only a few hours– and do not really have the time to experience the car properly.

In contrast, people who "track their cars and drive them on the road properly" (i.e., owners of CSLs) are saying –by an overwhelming margin– great things about the car performance, how it handles and how much fun it is to drive.

Finally, context matters. Negative reviews on the CSL come from reviewers testing the car during the winter on cold, wet, rural roads in one specific region of the world. Reviews conducted in more sunny locales on good quality roads are much, much more positive on the CSL. I am looking forward to the M4 CSL vs 911 GT3 vs C8 Z06 comparison that Hagerty will be putting out shortly. This evaluation will be conducted in optimal driving conditions and will be massively more informative than the flashy clickbait video put out by Auto-trader UK.
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      05-15-2023, 11:42 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asymmetrick View Post
You are absolutely right!

Cars of CSL and GT3's caliber deserve to be tested under optimal conditions (including dry tarmac) by qualified individuals to truly evaluate what they are capable of.

It is a complete disservice to our community to put out "reviews" conducted under completely suboptimal conditions and pretend they have any real value to sports car enthusiasts.

Auto trader UK: You need to step up your game. We really deserve better from you.
Why?

When I sign up for a track event, I show up and drive whether it rains or not.

In my F80, the stock OEM wheels with PS4S are my rain setup, and in the back seat I have a dry weather setup with slicks. At the expense of some convenience (mounting and dismounting wheels), I have a flexible setup.

With the CSL and GT3, I think you are constrained to run whatever the car is shod with. So if you show up with both to the track in the rain, the CSL will be harder to drive than the GT3, by quite a margin.

And if you show up in the dry, rest assured, the situation will be the same.

No matter what, the GT3 is a better track car. Both are compromised street cars.
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      05-16-2023, 08:48 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by adc View Post
Why?

When I sign up for a track event, I show up and drive whether it rains or not.
Thank you for your comment. I am happy you are raising this point since this highlights a common misconception.

The answer to your "why" question is in your own sentence: "When I sign up for a track event". In other words, you are saying that you are actively selecting what you believe are "optimized driving conditions" (in this case, ideal driving surfaces) to enjoy your sports car. I am making the exact same argument in my post above.

You have reduced the whole point of my post to "not driving in the rain" when in fact I was arguing that "reviews conducted in the winter on cold, wet, rural roads" are not the most informative for top of the line performance cars. This is important because a large fraction of CSL reviews from one specific region of the world were conducted under poor driving conditions: it provides a skewed/false perception to car enthusiasts.

Finally, it is important to understand that people who purchase the highest performance cars are typically highly-competitive enthusiasts who spend significant amounts of money to get the absolute best performance out of their track days (i.e., shaving a few tenths off their record, etc). You won't accomplish this in wet/cold conditions. If you are going to use your car in poor driving conditions, you don't need a CSL, a GT3, or a black series AMG. A lower variant of those cars equipped with PS4S will do just fine under suboptimal driving conditions and this will save you a lot of money.


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Originally Posted by adc View Post
And if you show up in the dry, rest assured, the situation will be the same.

No matter what, the GT3 is a better track car. Both are compromised street cars.
I don't recall comparing the performance of the GT3 and CSL in my post. Maybe you mixed up my post with someone else's...

Btw, I don't disagree with this point. The GT3 is a superb sports car. In fact, it has to be because it is a LOT more expensive than a CSL.

A base (zero option) 911 GT3 is 184K USD/150K GBP and a fully equipped M4 CSL is 146K USD/125K GBP (all quoted prices exclude ADMs of the US market). This is a huge price difference which raises the question whether the GT3 is the proper car to compare to the CSL.

I would argue, performance-wise, that the 911 GTS with lightweight package is a more appropriate comparator (even thought it is still substantially more expensive than the CSL with the same specs/options). The proper comparator for the CSL when considering only price (ie, with matching options: CCB, Carbon Roof, PASM, SportDesign Package, etc) in the Porsche 911 lineup is the Carrera S.

So, for the price of a comparably equipped 911 Carrera S, you get a M4 CSL; a car that outperforms the Porsche massively.


Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
In my F80, the stock OEM wheels with PS4S are my rain setup, and in the back seat I have a dry weather setup with slicks. At the expense of some convenience (mounting and dismounting wheels), I have a flexible setup.
Glad to hear you have a good flexible setup. The F80 is a great car that is –in my opinion– underappreciated. I hope you enjoy your track days, even in the rain.
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      05-16-2023, 09:31 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Asymmetrick View Post
Thank you for your comment. I am happy you are raising this point since this highlights a common misconception.

The answer to your "why" question is in your own sentence: "When I sign up for a track event". In other words, you are saying that you are actively selecting what you believe are "optimized driving conditions" (in this case, ideal driving surfaces) to enjoy your sports car. I am making the exact same argument.

You have reduced my whole point to "not driving in the rain" when in fact I was arguing that "reviews conducted in the winter on cold, wet, rural roads" are not the most informative for top of the line performance cars. This is especially true when a large fraction of CSL reviews from one specific region of the world were conducted under poor driving conditions: it provides a skewed/false perception to car enthusiasts.

Finally, it is important to understand that people who purchase the highest performance cars are typically highly-competitive enthusiasts who spend large amount of money to get the absolute best performance out of their track days (i.e., shaving a few tenths off their record, etc). You won't accomplish this in wet/cold conditions. If you are going to use your car in poor driving conditions, you don't need a CSL, a GT3, or a black series AMG. A lower variant of those cars equipped with PS4S will do just fine under suboptimal driving conditions and this will save you a lot of money.




I don't recall comparing the performance of the GT3 and CSL in my post. Maybe you mixed up my post with someone else's...

Btw, I don't disagree with this point. The GT3 is a superb sports car. In fact, it has be because it is substantially more expensive than a CSL.

A base (zero option) 911 GT3 is 184K USD/150 GBP and a fully equipped M4 CSL is 146K USD/125K GBP (excluding ADM). This is a huge price difference which raises the question whether the GT3 is the proper car to compare to the CSL.

I would argue, performance-wise, that the 911 GTS with lightweight package is a more appropriate comparator (even thought it is still substantially more expensive than the CSL with the same specs/options). The proper comparator for the CSL when considering only price (ie, with matching options/specs: CCB, Carbon Roof, PASM, SportDesign Package, etc) in the Porsche 911 lineup is the Carrera S.

So, for the price of a comparably equipped 911 Carrera S, you get a M4 CSL; a car that outperforms the Porsche massively.




Glad to hear you have a good flexible setup. The F80 is a great car that is –in my opinion– underappreciated. I hope you enjoy your track days, even in the rain.
Porsche has significantly raised prices on the entire lineup since the 2022MY. The GT3 base price used to be 162k! For anyone with a 2023 allocation it's now 184k and there is yet ANOTHER increase that hasn't been posted yet but applies to MY2024 GT3/GT3RS that had their production pushed because of production issues which adds another 6% to the base price. So for MY2025/26 barring any further increases it will be near as it makes no difference 200k to start.

Which makes the M4 CSL a very compelling option but the problem is BMW is making it a limited run. IMO BMW should be cranking M4 CSLs out because the 992 911s have become way too expensive.

And more to the point of comparison a 992 GTS is a more apt rival but in favor of the GTS.
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      05-16-2023, 10:15 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by supershaft View Post
Porsche has significantly raised prices on the entire lineup since the 2022MY. The GT3 base price used to be 162k! For anyone with a 2023 allocation it's now 184k and there is yet ANOTHER increase that hasn't been posted yet but applies to MY2024 GT3/GT3RS that had their production pushed because of production issues which adds another 6% to the base price. So for MY2025/26 barring any further increases it will be near as it makes no difference 200k to start.

Which makes the M4 CSL a very compelling option but the problem is BMW is making it a limited run. IMO BMW should be cranking M4 CSLs out because the 992 911s have become way too expensive.

And more to the point of comparison a 992 GTS is a more apt rival but in favor of the GTS.
Price went up 9% on the gt3, anyone who had a build before the hike was honored at the previous price. I got my gt3 in april shortly after the announcement and got the old price.

I think BMW needs to cut one of the 70 suv lines it has and build a true ground up sports car like a redone m1.
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      05-16-2023, 12:44 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supershaft View Post
Porsche has significantly raised prices on the entire lineup since the 2022MY. The GT3 base price used to be 162k! For anyone with a 2023 allocation it's now 184k and there is yet ANOTHER increase that hasn't been posted yet but applies to MY2024 GT3/GT3RS that had their production pushed because of production issues which adds another 6% to the base price. So for MY2025/26 barring any further increases it will be near as it makes no difference 200k to start.
You are absolutely correct. The recent price increases by Porsche on their 911 variants are getting out of hand.

People forget that Porsche has some of the highest profit margins in the car industry (at least at their price point), and it has been reported that the 911 models in particular are making almost 50% profit for Porsche each time a car is sold. As a comparison, the highest profit margin reported in the BMW lineup is ~25% for high-end SUV models (still not great for customers, but way better than Porsche).

The price hikes described in the post above are not introduced to compensate for production cost increases for Porsche cars. The company just wants to maintain its ~50% profit margin on 911s (or worse, increase it).
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      05-16-2023, 03:36 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asymmetrick View Post
Thank you for your comment. I am happy you are raising this point since this highlights a common misconception.

The answer to your "why" question is in your own sentence: "When I sign up for a track event". In other words, you are saying that you are actively selecting what you believe are "optimized driving conditions" (in this case, ideal driving surfaces) to enjoy your sports car. I am making the exact same argument in my post above.

You have reduced the whole point of my post to "not driving in the rain" when in fact I was arguing that "reviews conducted in the winter on cold, wet, rural roads" are not the most informative for top of the line performance cars. This is important because a large fraction of CSL reviews from one specific region of the world were conducted under poor driving conditions: it provides a skewed/false perception to car enthusiasts.

Finally, it is important to understand that people who purchase the highest performance cars are typically highly-competitive enthusiasts who spend significant amounts of money to get the absolute best performance out of their track days (i.e., shaving a few tenths off their record, etc). You won't accomplish this in wet/cold conditions. If you are going to use your car in poor driving conditions, you don't need a CSL, a GT3, or a black series AMG. A lower variant of those cars equipped with PS4S will do just fine under suboptimal driving conditions and this will save you a lot of money.




I don't recall comparing the performance of the GT3 and CSL in my post. Maybe you mixed up my post with someone else's...

Btw, I don't disagree with this point. The GT3 is a superb sports car. In fact, it has to be because it is a LOT more expensive than a CSL.

A base (zero option) 911 GT3 is 184K USD/150K GBP and a fully equipped M4 CSL is 146K USD/125K GBP (all quoted prices exclude ADMs of the US market). This is a huge price difference which raises the question whether the GT3 is the proper car to compare to the CSL.

I would argue, performance-wise, that the 911 GTS with lightweight package is a more appropriate comparator (even thought it is still substantially more expensive than the CSL with the same specs/options). The proper comparator for the CSL when considering only price (ie, with matching options: CCB, Carbon Roof, PASM, SportDesign Package, etc) in the Porsche 911 lineup is the Carrera S.

So, for the price of a comparably equipped 911 Carrera S, you get a M4 CSL; a car that outperforms the Porsche massively.




Glad to hear you have a good flexible setup. The F80 is a great car that is –in my opinion– underappreciated. I hope you enjoy your track days, even in the rain.
My point was also simple - you run what you bring to that occasion. They had a GT3, they had a CSL, mix, observe and summarize.

BMW doesn't offer a "Good weather" button in their CSL where you can summon a sunny day in the midst of an English winter.

In the same lousy, treacherous conditions, the GT3 shone bright, and the CSL didn't. That was my point.
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      05-16-2023, 04:01 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by M6-Coupe View Post
Nice
Amazing video but how many people and how often take a +150k car to track?
Judging by the track days I attend, I'd say quite a few
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      05-16-2023, 04:09 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by adc View Post
Why?

When I sign up for a track event, I show up and drive whether it rains or not.

In my F80, the stock OEM wheels with PS4S are my rain setup, and in the back seat I have a dry weather setup with slicks. At the expense of some convenience (mounting and dismounting wheels), I have a flexible setup.

With the CSL and GT3, I think you are constrained to run whatever the car is shod with. So if you show up with both to the track in the rain, the CSL will be harder to drive than the GT3, by quite a margin.

And if you show up in the dry, rest assured, the situation will be the same.

No matter what, the GT3 is a better track car. Both are compromised street cars.
Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
My point was also simple - you run what you bring to that occasion. They had a GT3, they had a CSL, mix, observe and summarize.

BMW doesn't offer a "Good weather" button in their CSL where you can summon a sunny day in the midst of an English winter.

In the same lousy, treacherous conditions, the GT3 shone bright, and the CSL didn't. That was my point.
As tidbit, if I saw correctly in the video, the M4CSL is on PS4S while the GT3 is on PSC2. So the CSL had better "wet" tires than the GT3 for this review.
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      05-16-2023, 04:21 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by adc View Post
In the same lousy, treacherous conditions, the GT3 shone bright, and the CSL didn't. That was my point.
In these conditions, neither car shone very bright in my opinion. That is why "reviews" conducted in poor conditions are not very informative.

As argued in my post above, if you want to race in cold+rain and on rough surfaces (i.e., "lousy, treacherous conditions" to use your words), there is no need to pay for a GT3 or CSL. It's wiser to stick to a mid-range sports car.
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      05-16-2023, 04:29 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Asymmetrick View Post
In these conditions, neither car shone very bright in my opinion. That is why "reviews" conducted in poor conditions are not very informative.

As argued in my post above, if you want to race in cold+rain and on rough surfaces (i.e., "lousy, treacherous conditions" to use your words), there is no need to pay for a GT3 or CSL. It's wiser to stick to a mid-range sports car.
I would tend to disagree. While testing on a wet track is pointless for objective metrics such as lap times, it can however be very informative from a subjective perspective. Wet conditions enhance the overall handling characteristics of a vehicle and are very telling on how it behaves a the limit. I personally love driving on a wet track, every lap is a different experience (I however hate the paddock portion of wet track days )
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      05-16-2023, 04:30 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asymmetrick View Post
In these conditions, neither car shone very bright in my opinion. That is why "reviews" conducted in poor conditions are not very informative.

As argued in my post above, if you want to race in cold+rain and on rough surfaces (i.e., "lousy, treacherous conditions" to use your words), there is no need to pay for a GT3 or CSL. It's wiser to stick to a mid-range sports car.
I think you are selectively picking the conclusions. It isn't the conclusion I came away with, but whatever makes you feel better about the CSL I guess.

BMW does not specify the CSL to only be a warm weather car. I will drive my cars in any conditions exist at the time. Yes, even in winter/snow with my F80.

Gasp! They should remove my M permit and make me buy a 320i because it is more appropriate for the conditions.
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      05-16-2023, 05:10 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
I think you are selectively picking the conclusions.
I don't think so. My point as always been that high end sports car reviews are most informative when they measure optimal car performance. This cannot be done under "lousy, treacherous conditions".

If one is to spend the extra $ to get the extra performance of a high end sports car (and reviews are supposed to inform that decision), then it seems reasonable to expect reviews to conduct tests that objectively measures the extra performance. As pointed out by someone else above: "testing on a wet track is pointless for objective metrics such as lap times".


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Originally Posted by adc View Post
I will drive my cars in any conditions exist at the time. Yes, even in winter/snow with my F80.

Gasp! They should remove my M permit and make me buy a 320i because it is more appropriate for the conditions.
When did I say that you should not drive your car in winter/snow? I drove my RWD G80 M3 in snow and I don't see any problem with that. My point is about car reviews.


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Originally Posted by adc View Post
whatever makes you feel better about the CSL I guess.
No need to make this personal. My point is not about the CSL (or the GT3) specifically. My point is that reviews of high performance cars are most informative when they are conducted under optimal driving conditions. This shouldn't be a controversial point.
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      05-16-2023, 11:27 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Asymmetrick View Post
I don't think so. My point as always been that high end sports car reviews are most informative when they measure optimal car performance. This cannot be done under "lousy, treacherous conditions".

If one is to spend the extra $ to get the extra performance of a high end sports car (and reviews are supposed to inform that decision), then it seems reasonable to expect reviews to conduct tests that objectively measures the extra performance. As pointed out by someone else above: "testing on a wet track is pointless for objective metrics such as lap times".




When did I say that you should not drive your car in winter/snow? I drove my RWD G80 M3 in snow and I don't see any problem with that. My point is about car reviews.




No need to make this personal. My point is not about the CSL (or the GT3) specifically. My point is that reviews of high performance cars are most informative when they are conducted under optimal driving conditions. This shouldn't be a controversial point.

I tend to agree with this rationale as it pertains to reviews about objective performance.
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      05-17-2023, 09:57 AM   #63
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Is it that important for the CSL to be close or better than a GT3 on the road or track? Can they be just different for similar purposes?
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      05-17-2023, 10:31 AM   #64
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Quote:
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Is it that important for the CSL to be close or better than a GT3 on the road or track? Can they be just different for similar purposes?
Bingo, let it be its own thing !
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      05-17-2023, 03:48 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FTS View Post
Is it that important for the CSL to be close or better than a GT3 on the road or track? Can they be just different for similar purposes?
Quote:
Originally Posted by PLF69 View Post
Bingo, let it be its own thing !
You hit the nail on the head with this argument. Could not agree more! It's time to put the CSL vs GT3 comparisons to rest. These are different cars for different purposes at different price points. Makes no sense to compare them.

More generally speaking, we are being led down these rabbit holes of comparing car "A" to car "B" by questionable YouTube reviewers for no good reason. The choices of which cars are being compared is arbitrary and devised by reviewers to get the most possible views. Doesn't matter to them that the reviews are conducted carefully, with due diligence and without bias.

Fortunately for car enthusiasts, there are still several serious automotive publications out there who are putting out credible reviews of our favorite cars. We should focus our discussions/debates on these reviews, not those of YouTube reviewers like Autotrader uk.
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      05-17-2023, 04:05 PM   #66
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Agree, it's about views from the base car's audience. Content creators love performance versions of very high-selling models. Both of these check that box, are both German and relatively close in performance (albeit no practical contest). I can't think of a better pairing given the built in audience. Every 3/4-series and 911 owner want to see the fastest versions of their respective cars (GT3RS aside) and those audiences combined are huge compared to cars of similar track performance AMG GT/Audi R8 etc.
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