05-15-2023, 01:59 PM | #46 | |
Major General
1125
Rep 6,064
Posts |
Quote:
For F13 M6 and current F92 M8 it's different story. I enjoy their power/acceleration/luxurious as daily drive specially when folks behind the wheels of 911/AMG ask for some rolling funs Not sure if M8 is a track car at all despite the M badge on it... M8 has lots of things to put smile on your face other than track... Again I didnt say M4 CSL or GT3 are not track cars. I just said at their price point it's too much risk to take them to the track where there is always possibility for an accident and then its hard to replace them.
__________________
Current : 2020 F92 Black Sapphire M8 - ZF8
Gone : 2018 F80 Mineral Gray M3 - 6MT Gone : 2016 F82 Austin Yellow M4 - 6MT Gone : 2013 F13 Sakhir Orange M6 -7DCT Gone: 2013 F13 Alpine White 650i -ZF8 |
|
Appreciate
1
imperfectluck401.00 |
05-15-2023, 02:17 PM | #48 | |
Lieutenant
401
Rep 409
Posts |
Quote:
I'd agree with you that the F92 can be enjoyed in other ways outside of the track though part of the appear of M cars is that they can dual purpose both quite well. I'd feel much safer taking a GT car or the G82 CSL to a track vs driving through these now accident prone streets of NYC where everyone believes the highways are a glorified race track to "swim" through. Track insurance exists as does our road insurance when situations like these arise. We're enthusiasts, we like playing with our toys no matter how expensive they become, money then becomes a byproduct of our excitement |
|
Appreciate
1
LENBMW2.00 |
05-15-2023, 04:47 PM | #49 | |
Private First Class
398
Rep 150
Posts |
Quote:
In contrast, people who "track their cars and drive them on the road properly" (i.e., owners of CSLs) are saying –by an overwhelming margin– great things about the car performance, how it handles and how much fun it is to drive. Finally, context matters. Negative reviews on the CSL come from reviewers testing the car during the winter on cold, wet, rural roads in one specific region of the world. Reviews conducted in more sunny locales on good quality roads are much, much more positive on the CSL. I am looking forward to the M4 CSL vs 911 GT3 vs C8 Z06 comparison that Hagerty will be putting out shortly. This evaluation will be conducted in optimal driving conditions and will be massively more informative than the flashy clickbait video put out by Auto-trader UK.
__________________
__________________
Current: 2023 Frozen Brooklyn Grey ///M4 CSL Retired: 2022 Frozen Dark Grey ///M3 ||| 2021 Tanzanite Blue X7 ///M50i ||| 2016 Mineral Silver X5 40e |
|
05-15-2023, 11:42 PM | #50 | |
Major General
2725
Rep 6,750
Posts |
Quote:
When I sign up for a track event, I show up and drive whether it rains or not. In my F80, the stock OEM wheels with PS4S are my rain setup, and in the back seat I have a dry weather setup with slicks. At the expense of some convenience (mounting and dismounting wheels), I have a flexible setup. With the CSL and GT3, I think you are constrained to run whatever the car is shod with. So if you show up with both to the track in the rain, the CSL will be harder to drive than the GT3, by quite a margin. And if you show up in the dry, rest assured, the situation will be the same. No matter what, the GT3 is a better track car. Both are compromised street cars.
__________________
2018 F80 Santorini 2019 Z4 3.0i 2022 X2 M35i |
|
Appreciate
1
PLF693762.50 |
05-16-2023, 08:48 AM | #51 | ||
Private First Class
398
Rep 150
Posts |
Quote:
The answer to your "why" question is in your own sentence: "When I sign up for a track event". In other words, you are saying that you are actively selecting what you believe are "optimized driving conditions" (in this case, ideal driving surfaces) to enjoy your sports car. I am making the exact same argument in my post above. You have reduced the whole point of my post to "not driving in the rain" when in fact I was arguing that "reviews conducted in the winter on cold, wet, rural roads" are not the most informative for top of the line performance cars. This is important because a large fraction of CSL reviews from one specific region of the world were conducted under poor driving conditions: it provides a skewed/false perception to car enthusiasts. Finally, it is important to understand that people who purchase the highest performance cars are typically highly-competitive enthusiasts who spend significant amounts of money to get the absolute best performance out of their track days (i.e., shaving a few tenths off their record, etc). You won't accomplish this in wet/cold conditions. If you are going to use your car in poor driving conditions, you don't need a CSL, a GT3, or a black series AMG. A lower variant of those cars equipped with PS4S will do just fine under suboptimal driving conditions and this will save you a lot of money. Quote:
Btw, I don't disagree with this point. The GT3 is a superb sports car. In fact, it has to be because it is a LOT more expensive than a CSL. A base (zero option) 911 GT3 is 184K USD/150K GBP and a fully equipped M4 CSL is 146K USD/125K GBP (all quoted prices exclude ADMs of the US market). This is a huge price difference which raises the question whether the GT3 is the proper car to compare to the CSL. I would argue, performance-wise, that the 911 GTS with lightweight package is a more appropriate comparator (even thought it is still substantially more expensive than the CSL with the same specs/options). The proper comparator for the CSL when considering only price (ie, with matching options: CCB, Carbon Roof, PASM, SportDesign Package, etc) in the Porsche 911 lineup is the Carrera S. So, for the price of a comparably equipped 911 Carrera S, you get a M4 CSL; a car that outperforms the Porsche massively. Glad to hear you have a good flexible setup. The F80 is a great car that is –in my opinion– underappreciated. I hope you enjoy your track days, even in the rain.
__________________
__________________
Current: 2023 Frozen Brooklyn Grey ///M4 CSL Retired: 2022 Frozen Dark Grey ///M3 ||| 2021 Tanzanite Blue X7 ///M50i ||| 2016 Mineral Silver X5 40e Last edited by Asymmetrick; 05-16-2023 at 02:27 PM.. |
||
Appreciate
0
|
05-16-2023, 09:31 AM | #52 | |
Lieutenant
777
Rep 553
Posts |
Quote:
Which makes the M4 CSL a very compelling option but the problem is BMW is making it a limited run. IMO BMW should be cranking M4 CSLs out because the 992 911s have become way too expensive. And more to the point of comparison a 992 GTS is a more apt rival but in favor of the GTS. |
|
Appreciate
2
Asymmetrick398.00 CanAutM321104.50 |
05-16-2023, 10:15 AM | #53 | |
Private First Class
136
Rep 141
Posts |
Quote:
I think BMW needs to cut one of the 70 suv lines it has and build a true ground up sports car like a redone m1. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
05-16-2023, 12:44 PM | #54 | |
Private First Class
398
Rep 150
Posts |
Quote:
People forget that Porsche has some of the highest profit margins in the car industry (at least at their price point), and it has been reported that the 911 models in particular are making almost 50% profit for Porsche each time a car is sold. As a comparison, the highest profit margin reported in the BMW lineup is ~25% for high-end SUV models (still not great for customers, but way better than Porsche). The price hikes described in the post above are not introduced to compensate for production cost increases for Porsche cars. The company just wants to maintain its ~50% profit margin on 911s (or worse, increase it).
__________________
__________________
Current: 2023 Frozen Brooklyn Grey ///M4 CSL Retired: 2022 Frozen Dark Grey ///M3 ||| 2021 Tanzanite Blue X7 ///M50i ||| 2016 Mineral Silver X5 40e Last edited by Asymmetrick; 05-16-2023 at 03:33 PM.. |
|
Appreciate
2
Sedan_Clan24823.00 imperfectluck401.00 |
05-16-2023, 03:36 PM | #55 | |
Major General
2725
Rep 6,750
Posts |
Quote:
BMW doesn't offer a "Good weather" button in their CSL where you can summon a sunny day in the midst of an English winter. In the same lousy, treacherous conditions, the GT3 shone bright, and the CSL didn't. That was my point.
__________________
2018 F80 Santorini 2019 Z4 3.0i 2022 X2 M35i |
|
Appreciate
0
|
05-16-2023, 04:01 PM | #56 |
General
21105
Rep 20,741
Posts
Drives: 2021 911 turbo
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal
|
Judging by the track days I attend, I'd say quite a few
__________________
Porsche 911 turbo 2021 992 GT Silver
Previous cars: M4cs 2019 F82 Limerock Grey / M4 2015 F82 Silverstone / M3 2008 E92 Silverstone / M3 2002 E46 Carbon Black |
Appreciate
1
imperfectluck401.00 |
05-16-2023, 04:09 PM | #57 | ||
General
21105
Rep 20,741
Posts
Drives: 2021 911 turbo
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Porsche 911 turbo 2021 992 GT Silver
Previous cars: M4cs 2019 F82 Limerock Grey / M4 2015 F82 Silverstone / M3 2008 E92 Silverstone / M3 2002 E46 Carbon Black |
||
Appreciate
0
|
05-16-2023, 04:21 PM | #58 | |
Private First Class
398
Rep 150
Posts |
Quote:
As argued in my post above, if you want to race in cold+rain and on rough surfaces (i.e., "lousy, treacherous conditions" to use your words), there is no need to pay for a GT3 or CSL. It's wiser to stick to a mid-range sports car.
__________________
__________________
Current: 2023 Frozen Brooklyn Grey ///M4 CSL Retired: 2022 Frozen Dark Grey ///M3 ||| 2021 Tanzanite Blue X7 ///M50i ||| 2016 Mineral Silver X5 40e |
|
Appreciate
0
|
05-16-2023, 04:29 PM | #59 | |
General
21105
Rep 20,741
Posts
Drives: 2021 911 turbo
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal
|
Quote:
__________________
Porsche 911 turbo 2021 992 GT Silver
Previous cars: M4cs 2019 F82 Limerock Grey / M4 2015 F82 Silverstone / M3 2008 E92 Silverstone / M3 2002 E46 Carbon Black Last edited by CanAutM3; 05-16-2023 at 04:41 PM.. |
|
Appreciate
1
PLF693762.50 |
05-16-2023, 04:30 PM | #60 | |
Major General
2725
Rep 6,750
Posts |
Quote:
BMW does not specify the CSL to only be a warm weather car. I will drive my cars in any conditions exist at the time. Yes, even in winter/snow with my F80. Gasp! They should remove my M permit and make me buy a 320i because it is more appropriate for the conditions.
__________________
2018 F80 Santorini 2019 Z4 3.0i 2022 X2 M35i |
|
Appreciate
0
|
05-16-2023, 05:10 PM | #61 | |
Private First Class
398
Rep 150
Posts |
I don't think so. My point as always been that high end sports car reviews are most informative when they measure optimal car performance. This cannot be done under "lousy, treacherous conditions".
If one is to spend the extra $ to get the extra performance of a high end sports car (and reviews are supposed to inform that decision), then it seems reasonable to expect reviews to conduct tests that objectively measures the extra performance. As pointed out by someone else above: "testing on a wet track is pointless for objective metrics such as lap times". Quote:
No need to make this personal. My point is not about the CSL (or the GT3) specifically. My point is that reviews of high performance cars are most informative when they are conducted under optimal driving conditions. This shouldn't be a controversial point.
__________________
__________________
Current: 2023 Frozen Brooklyn Grey ///M4 CSL Retired: 2022 Frozen Dark Grey ///M3 ||| 2021 Tanzanite Blue X7 ///M50i ||| 2016 Mineral Silver X5 40e |
|
Appreciate
4
|
05-16-2023, 11:27 PM | #62 | |
Law Enforcer
24823
Rep 22,224
Posts
Drives: '22 Chalk Gray Porsche C2S
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: ..in your rearview!!!
|
Quote:
I tend to agree with this rationale as it pertains to reviews about objective performance. |
|
Appreciate
1
Asymmetrick398.00 |
05-17-2023, 09:57 AM | #63 |
Enjoying driving
388
Rep 1,169
Posts |
Is it that important for the CSL to be close or better than a GT3 on the road or track? Can they be just different for similar purposes?
|
Appreciate
3
|
05-17-2023, 10:31 AM | #64 |
Colonel
3763
Rep 2,700
Posts |
Bingo, let it be its own thing !
__________________
Fun/HPDE: 2023 M3 6MT Individual Malachite
Past:2023 M4 CSL, 2022 M4C Vert, 2020 M340i, 2018 M2, 2015 M235i, 2008 135i 550whp Daily: 2023 X5 45e Daily/Family: 2021 Atlas Cross Sport 3.6 |
Appreciate
1
Asymmetrick398.00 |
05-17-2023, 03:48 PM | #65 | |
Private First Class
398
Rep 150
Posts |
Quote:
More generally speaking, we are being led down these rabbit holes of comparing car "A" to car "B" by questionable YouTube reviewers for no good reason. The choices of which cars are being compared is arbitrary and devised by reviewers to get the most possible views. Doesn't matter to them that the reviews are conducted carefully, with due diligence and without bias. Fortunately for car enthusiasts, there are still several serious automotive publications out there who are putting out credible reviews of our favorite cars. We should focus our discussions/debates on these reviews, not those of YouTube reviewers like Autotrader uk.
__________________
__________________
Current: 2023 Frozen Brooklyn Grey ///M4 CSL Retired: 2022 Frozen Dark Grey ///M3 ||| 2021 Tanzanite Blue X7 ///M50i ||| 2016 Mineral Silver X5 40e |
|
Appreciate
1
Sedan_Clan24823.00 |
05-17-2023, 04:05 PM | #66 |
Riding the knock sensor
2332
Rep 1,573
Posts
Drives: 21 X5MC | 23 M4CSL
Join Date: May 2008
Location: PCH
|
Agree, it's about views from the base car's audience. Content creators love performance versions of very high-selling models. Both of these check that box, are both German and relatively close in performance (albeit no practical contest). I can't think of a better pairing given the built in audience. Every 3/4-series and 911 owner want to see the fastest versions of their respective cars (GT3RS aside) and those audiences combined are huge compared to cars of similar track performance AMG GT/Audi R8 etc.
__________________
|
Appreciate
1
Asymmetrick398.00 |
Post Reply |
Bookmarks |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|