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      10-24-2020, 02:12 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by seis-speed View Post
I think Chris Harris was right in the idea that in a year's time it might grow on everyone and people will warm up to it. It is such a drastic change that it will take a little time, most of us have not even seen it in the flesh let alone rolling down the street.

If it is true what some are saying that Asian markets like larger grilles.

It might be as simple as China prefers larger grilles, the vocal US enthusiast appreciates a manual transmission, so let's appease our 2 largest markets.
funny enough I've heard from chinese friends in mainland china that they hate it as well lol
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      10-24-2020, 02:35 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by seis-speed View Post
I think Chris Harris was right in the idea that in a year's time it might grow on everyone and people will warm up to it. It is such a drastic change that it will take a little time, most of us have not even seen it in the flesh let alone rolling down the street.

If it is true what some are saying that Asian markets like larger grilles.

It might be as simple as China prefers larger grilles, the vocal US enthusiast appreciates a manual transmission, so let's appease our 2 largest markets.
You make good points.

And my original one was that if you don't like the grill you can still get BMWs without large versions (M5, M2). You can also order a car without a manual.

The Grill gets BMWs 'face' out there with the next gen of buyers looking for a name. I just sold my F80 and was amazed how many potential buyers were new to the brand and were aspiring to it. All of them in their 30s mainly.
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      10-24-2020, 02:38 PM   #25
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Thread title is hilarious, OP seems to be suggesting to 'know' that BMW 'might' know better than a few angry online keyboard haters of the early G8X pics.

No $h1T I'm fairly certain BMW are a 'quite successful' organisation and know exactly what they're doing.

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      10-24-2020, 02:46 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by justchris View Post
thread title is hilarious, op seems to be suggesting to 'know' that bmw 'might' know better than a few angry online keyboard haters of the early g8x pics.

No $h1t i'm fairly certain bmw are a 'quite successful' organisation and know exactly what they're doing.

but the grille wahhhhhhhhh
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      10-24-2020, 03:08 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Jimjamz View Post
BMW has definitely stared down the grill haters.

Here's the thing though - most complaining are going on about their love of the older designs and their dislike of the new colours, partnerships with lifestyle brands and hyper aggressive grills.

BMW knows full well the M3 makes its brand. Future generations are giving up on cars. You have to appeal to them to give your brand legs going forward. And they are doing that ten times over - after all they only get to launch a new M3 every 7 years.

The older M buyers can retreat to a M5 or SUV or go back hardcore to a M2. The brand will live on through their hyped up M3 marketing.

And that's why they're smarter than the complainers.
M3 no longer makes the BMW brand. Look at SUV sales compared to sedan car sales.
BMW is actually not taking much of a risk at all. BMW knows that the M3/M4 are low sales volume cars, also they know that BMW performance enthusiasts will be less likely to move to AMG if they are repeat M car buyers even though the grille is not great looking because M car buyers are more loyal.
BMW is already back tracking on the grille. When did BMW M3/M4 have unique grilles from other series cars? Never, and they only said that this grille will be specific to M3/M4 and 4 series because of the backlash. They didn't say this out the outset. BMW always used the 3 Series to introduce new designs and then move it to other series but because the hate for the grille they are obviously taking a step back.
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      10-24-2020, 06:16 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by GOLFFRR View Post
Ive stated lots of times, ever since we first saw the launch/spy car. A lot of people who complain about the grill will still end up getting one. Yes there is some hate and that's totally cool and I respect that, but as you can see as time goes on more and more on here are changing their mind.
That will likely be true, it will mostly be dependent on the car's performance over its predecessor as well as, can it out drive it's somewhat polarizing and possibly hideous styling. Car will have to be a big upgrade in performance.

There are a lot expectations from owners and enthusiasts this is the benchmark car in its class. Frankly BMW's best all around vehicle. I'm looking forward to the first test drive and the AWD version to make the final decision regarding purchase.
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      10-24-2020, 06:28 PM   #29
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You are correct, it’s low risk, based on M3 volume and tanking 4 series sales, but don’t really see any backtracking. The new grille is a signature of the i4 concept car and BMW has said they wanted to breakout the 4 as its own series. It’s all about marketing the i4 which needs to be a completely new style to go head to head with Tesla and a plethora of stylized EVs coming to market over the next 24 months.

I don’t really understand why they dragged the M3 into the mix, but it does look much more aggressive than the F cars.
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      10-24-2020, 07:12 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimjamz View Post
BMW has definitely stared down the grill haters.

Here's the thing though - most complaining are going on about their love of the older designs and their dislike of the new colours, partnerships with lifestyle brands and hyper aggressive grills.

BMW knows full well the M3 makes its brand. Future generations are giving up on cars. You have to appeal to them to give your brand legs going forward. And they are doing that ten times over - after all they only get to launch a new M3 every 7 years.

The older M buyers can retreat to a M5 or SUV or go back hardcore to a M2. The brand will live on through their hyped up M3 marketing.

And that's why they're smarter than the complainers.
I know you tried, but this is a very weak argument.
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      10-24-2020, 07:31 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Avaley View Post
If one is going to state you are betting on this not doing well, i think you should put your money where your mouth is and short the stock if you so firmly believe it otherwise you are leaving money on the table.

isn't electrification exactly what every single german auto mfg is doing? like you think Porsche and BMW CEOs looked at the performance of TSLA stock and been like nahhhhh lets only spend R&D money on ICU engines....meanwhile i4m has been spotted, audi has an etron, porsche has a taycan and is planning to electrify the cayman?

clearly people just want to use this forum to bitch instead of analyze and have good discussions...

edit: to be clear...the germans are way behind imo but they will catch up on electrification and in a few years, will sell better electric cars than TSLA, this is my position and full disclosure I am long on TSLA, VWG and BMW.
Sure electrification is what they're doing, but there at least 2-3 years behind Tesla in terms of R&D, and that's coming right from the mouth of the VW CEO. They would need to catch up in terms of software development, autonomous driving capability, and battery research in a matter of 2-3 years, and that's IF Tesla stagnates.

I'm not saying they won't make cool cars, the cars will definitely be better than a Tesla. Taycan looks great, and the e-Tron concept looks really cool. But if Tesla can capture the 30-50K EV market and push reliability and battery longevity, where does that leave the Germans? They have their work cut out for them because not many people are looking at 100K Taycans. I would love to see a 50K German EV that's sporty, reliable, and fun to drive, but right now I don't see one.

I know that Northern San Francisco air can get to someone but take off the Silicon Valley hat for a second and think like an investor.

Last edited by ThatKrazyPolak; 10-24-2020 at 07:36 PM..
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      10-24-2020, 07:36 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by ThatKrazyPolak View Post
Sure electrification is what they're doing, but there at least 2-3 years behind Tesla in terms of R&D, and that's coming right from the mouth of the VW CEO. They would need to catch up in terms of software development, autonomous driving capability, and battery research in a matter of 2-3 years, and that's IF Tesla stagnates.

I'm not saying they won't make cool cars, the cars will definitely be better than a Tesla. Taycan looks great, and the e-Tron concept looks really cool. But if Tesla can capture the 30-50K EV market and push reliability and battery longevity, where does that leave the Germans? They have their work cut out for them because not many people are looking at 100,000K Taycans.

Take off your Silicon Valley hat for a second and think like an investor.
any average joe could have told me that reading a seeking alpha article but i'm in agreement with everything other than your preconceived notion and incorrect assumption that living Silicon Valley is mutually exclusive with being an investor.

FYI most of us venture investors work in silicon valley...shows how much you know about investing btw BUT sorry if i made you angry

edit: just learned how the ignore list works!
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      10-24-2020, 07:42 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Avaley View Post
any average joe could have told me that reading a seeking alpha article but i'm in agreement with everything other than your preconceived notion and incorrect assumption that living Silicon Valley is mutually exclusive with being an investor.

FYI most of us venture investors work in silicon valley...shows how much you know about investing btw BUT sorry if i made you angry

edit: just learned how the ignore list works!
I don't know why you're so uptight about this you probably make more than I do I should be the one that feels insecure.
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      10-24-2020, 11:52 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Penguino View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimjamz View Post
BMW has definitely stared down the grill haters.

Here's the thing though - most complaining are going on about their love of the older designs and their dislike of the new colours, partnerships with lifestyle brands and hyper aggressive grills.

BMW knows full well the M3 makes its brand. Future generations are giving up on cars. You have to appeal to them to give your brand legs going forward. And they are doing that ten times over - after all they only get to launch a new M3 every 7 years.

The older M buyers can retreat to a M5 or SUV or go back hardcore to a M2. The brand will live on through their hyped up M3 marketing.

And that's why they're smarter than the complainers.
I know you tried, but this is a very weak argument.
I was trying

I've passed up on the G80 for a F87 CS. But selling my F80 I was taken how many buyers were coming at me from Mercedes. They were all a lot younger and they like the aggressive styling of the G80. Not for me. That said, they'll be buying cars 10-15 years after I stop. So it got me thinking...
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      10-25-2020, 07:09 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Darth One View Post
All these are fair points and brands do have to reinvent themselves from time to time. Time will tell whether becoming a lifestyle brand is the right decision over sticking to driving and motorsports.

Personally, i have my own lifestyle brands and I’d like to see BMW double down on motoring and do something like take Honda’s place as an F1 engine supplier. But they won’t, and rightly so - hypebeasts are a much bigger market than F1 fans.

But couldn’t they have made the G8x flamboyant but not ugly? Even if your strategy is good, you still have to nail the execution. Lamborghini at this point is more of a lifestyle brand itself, and they don’t make ugly cars.
Lamborghini still made one of the fastest cars on the Nürburgring, performance and driving emotion still matters to them...
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      10-25-2020, 10:00 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimjamz View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penguino View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimjamz View Post
BMW has definitely stared down the grill haters.

Here's the thing though - most complaining are going on about their love of the older designs and their dislike of the new colours, partnerships with lifestyle brands and hyper aggressive grills.

BMW knows full well the M3 makes its brand. Future generations are giving up on cars. You have to appeal to them to give your brand legs going forward. And they are doing that ten times over - after all they only get to launch a new M3 every 7 years.

The older M buyers can retreat to a M5 or SUV or go back hardcore to a M2. The brand will live on through their hyped up M3 marketing.

And that's why they're smarter than the complainers.
I know you tried, but this is a very weak argument.
I was trying

I've passed up on the G80 for a F87 CS. But selling my F80 I was taken how many buyers were coming at me from Mercedes. They were all a lot younger and they like the aggressive styling of the G80. Not for me. That said, they'll be buying cars 10-15 years after I stop. So it got me thinking...
That makes sense. But remember the highest demographic of M3 owners has been 30-45 years old. If BMW anticipates this to be lowered to 25-35 that's fine, but age is only one segmentation of the demographics.

The Civic Type R (BMW Performance Exhaust) approach they are going for is making me consider MB or Porsche next. I can't buy or drive a car that I'd feel embarrassed to be seen in because it's the car 20 year olds with 100K Instagram followed are now buying.
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      10-25-2020, 10:13 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Penguino View Post
That makes sense. But remember the highest demographic of M3 owners has been 30-45 years old. If BMW anticipates this to be lowered to 25-35 that's fine, but age is only one segmentation of the demographics.

The Civic Type R (BMW Performance Exhaust) approach they are going for is making me consider MB or Porsche next. I can't buy or drive a car that I'd feel embarrassed to be seen in because it's the car 20 year olds with 100K Instagram followed are now buying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth One View Post
All these are fair points and brands do have to reinvent themselves from time to time. Time will tell whether becoming a lifestyle brand is the right decision over sticking to driving and motorsports.

Personally, i have my own lifestyle brands and I’d like to see BMW double down on motoring and do something like take Honda’s place as an F1 engine supplier. But they won’t, and rightly so - hypebeasts are a much bigger market than F1 fans.

But couldn’t they have made the G8x flamboyant but not ugly? Even if your strategy is good, you still have to nail the execution. Lamborghini at this point is more of a lifestyle brand itself, and they don’t make ugly cars.
Tbf the pricing of BMWs including the M cars make them very affordable and achievable for the average enthusiast, which is why the civic type r gets so much love (i hate that classless car btw).

If you really want a P car that is exclusive, I suggest a GT2 RS or GT3 RS with a Weissach package for ~$350k as non GT and even the GT4 cars won't gain you any "street cred" with boomers.

BMW is a mainstream and I dare to say budget brand and if lifestyle brands are what you are looking for, I never hear owners of Lamborghinis, Ferraris and Mclarens complaining.

We have so much damn choice in a very competitive market that something will tingle your butt dyno...
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      10-25-2020, 10:18 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Avaley View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penguino View Post
That makes sense. But remember the highest demographic of M3 owners has been 30-45 years old. If BMW anticipates this to be lowered to 25-35 that's fine, but age is only one segmentation of the demographics.

The Civic Type R (BMW Performance Exhaust) approach they are going for is making me consider MB or Porsche next. I can't buy or drive a car that I'd feel embarrassed to be seen in because it's the car 20 year olds with 100K Instagram followed are now buying.
Tbf the pricing of BMWs including the M cars make them very affordable and achievable for the average enthusiast, which is why the civic type r gets so much love (i hate that classless car btw).

If you really want a P car that is exclusive, I suggest a GT2 RS or GT3 RS with a Weissach package for ~$350k as non GT and even the GT4 cars won't gain you any "street cred" with boomers.

BMW is a mainstream and I dare to say budget brand and if lifestyle brands are what you are looking for, I never hear owners of Lamborghinis, Ferraris and Mclarens complaining.
If BMW goal is moving downstream to mainstream, then go for it. The dilution of the M brand is evidence of this. Now they are diluting their demographics as well, appealing to a much younger and financially irresponsible crowd that doesn't mind $900 leases.
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      10-25-2020, 10:20 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Penguino View Post
If BMW goal is moving downstream to mainstream, then go for it. The dilution of the M brand is evidence of this. Now they are diluting their demographics as well, appealing to a much younger and financially irresponsible crowd that doesn't mind $900 leases.
I agree with you and well said....but unfortunately what they are doing is intentional much needed help to their P&L line and $900 leases are pretty profitable for the Company.
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      10-25-2020, 10:24 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Penguino View Post
If BMW goal is moving downstream to mainstream, then go for it. The dilution of the M brand is evidence of this. Now they are diluting their demographics as well, appealing to a much younger and financially irresponsible crowd that doesn't mind $900 leases.
Also no if and buts about it!!! BMW is moving mainstream, but why would they not?

The number of buyers in the younger market size is forever growing and the older market is forever dying.

No one wants to hear this and its morbid, but that is the truth, corporate is after profits not making their shrinking hardcore enthusiast base happy.

edit: Its important to distinguish the above commentary is from a corporate stakeholder and equity owner's perspective and not a consumer/buyer. As a buyer, the only BMW that interests me now is the G87.

Last edited by Avaley; 10-25-2020 at 10:39 AM..
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      10-25-2020, 10:49 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaley View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penguino View Post
If BMW goal is moving downstream to mainstream, then go for it. The dilution of the M brand is evidence of this. Now they are diluting their demographics as well, appealing to a much younger and financially irresponsible crowd that doesn't mind $900 leases.
Also no if and buts about it!!! BMW is moving mainstream, but why would they not?

The number of buyers in the younger market size is forever growing and the older market is forever dying.

No one wants to hear this and its morbid, but that is the truth, corporate is after profits not making their shrinking hardcore enthusiast base happy.

edit: Its important to distinguish the above commentary is from a corporate stakeholder and equity owner's perspective and not a consumer/buyer. As a buyer, the only BMW that interests me now is the G87.
Valid points. But remember, Porsche is. That is why they remain the most profitable brand on a per unit basis: BECAUSE THEY LISTEN TO THEIR CUSTOMERS.

It creates loyalty, which incentivized sales, which increases profit. MB and Audi both went the mainstream way and buyers are more and more cross-shopping them. BMW joined the bandwagon and more and more buys are now cross-shopping BMW. A few years ago, BMW owners would hardly consider cross-shopping with MB or Audi.
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      10-25-2020, 11:29 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Penguino View Post
Valid points. But remember, Porsche is. That is why they remain the most profitable brand on a per unit basis: BECAUSE THEY LISTEN TO THEIR CUSTOMERS.

It creates loyalty, which incentivized sales, which increases profit. MB and Audi both went the mainstream way and buyers are more and more cross-shopping them. BMW joined the bandwagon and more and more buys are now cross-shopping BMW. A few years ago, BMW owners would hardly consider cross-shopping with MB or Audi.
Spot on, i think this year lamborghini might make take the title for profit per unit as units are down like 50%+ for every manufacturer? I know Porsche will not be making their 15% gross profit margin this year per their latest quarterly sales press release but have always led profitability to your points.

The big three are too homogenized at this point and I feel like the goal is to move units, thus the mainstreaming and cross shopping. Still the newest C63 and RS5 will have to improve on a relative basis if they want to stay neck and neck performance wise with the G8x.

The good thing for us as buyers, is even Porsche will need to up their game as a few P-car friends have sold / traded 911s for the C8....one even got a Model S .
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      10-28-2020, 04:54 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Avaley View Post
If one is going to state you are betting on this not doing well, i think you should put your money where your mouth is and short the stock if you so firmly believe it otherwise you are leaving money on the table.

isn't electrification exactly what every single german auto mfg is doing? like you think Porsche and BMW CEOs looked at the performance of TSLA stock and been like nahhhhh lets only spend R&D money on ICU engines....meanwhile i4m has been spotted, audi has an etron, porsche has a taycan and is planning to electrify the cayman?

clearly people just want to use this forum to bitch instead of analyze and have good discussions...

edit: to be clear...the germans are way behind imo but they will catch up on electrification and in a few years, will sell better electric cars than TSLA, this is my position and full disclosure I am long on TSLA, VWG and BMW.
Ive seen you on multiple threads now and i have to say i agree with everything youre saying in each one.
You cant even find a thread to simply discuss the G80/82 without people bitching about the grill of a car they haven't seen in person. Mind you no one has driven it yet. Its aggravating to say the least, People need to think back to 2013 when the F80/82 was first revealed no one liked those either for many reason and now here we are. history and facts always repeat it self. Xdrive M340i outsell the RWD AWD M3/M4 will even do better than the F8X Generation i can promise that. now BMW will take some Audi owners, look how well the new M5 is doing M8 as well
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      10-28-2020, 08:53 AM   #44
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Ive seen you on multiple threads now and i have to say i agree with everything youre saying in each one.
You cant even find a thread to simply discuss the G80/82 without people bitching about the grill of a car they haven't seen in person. Mind you no one has driven it yet. Its aggravating to say the least, People need to think back to 2013 when the F80/82 was first revealed no one liked those either for many reason and now here we are. history and facts always repeat it self. Xdrive M340i outsell the RWD AWD M3/M4 will even do better than the F8X Generation i can promise that. now BMW will take some Audi owners, look how well the new M5 is doing M8 as well


Its sad really...the amount of immaturity, whining and lack of good discussions has been VERY off putting to new members like us...

I'm just trying to promote intelligent discussion. My first post / reason I joined was to leak the G8x photos as I felt that BMW enthusiasts deserved to see it early, but in reality, I should start spending my time on Rennlist instead if my goal is to have a thought provoking discussions with mature adults.
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