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      09-23-2020, 11:05 AM   #1
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S58 potential, value proposition and rivals

I've been struggling to have conversations that don't involve the grille sucks (which i also don't like) so with all the cosmetics discussions going on, lets talk about the potential of the S58 engine, particularly in the M3/M4 comp and their performance to value proposition.

An X3M with an ECU tune has shown the S58 in a larger package to be a 3.0s and 11s car to 60 and 1/4, respectively. Clearly the S58 is capable of holding 600+ whp and with 400-600lbs less, is the G8x setting the new benchmark in the industry in terms of performance per dollar?

Other than the C8 Corvette, muscle cars and M2CS / G87, C63 are there any other cars that can truly match the S58 dollar per dollar (under $85k USD)? Who else is a competitor in this class?

Would like to keep this civil and an educational discussion please.

Last edited by Avaley; 09-23-2020 at 01:29 PM..
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      09-23-2020, 11:21 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaley View Post
An X3M with an ECU tune has shown the S58 in a larger package to be a 3.0s and 11s car to 60 and 1/4, respectively. Clearly the S58 is capable of holding 600+ whp and with 500-800lbs less, is the G8x setting the new benchmark in the industry in terms of performance per dollar?
Short answer: "No".

That's what my gut says, anyway. Examples like this immediately come to mind:

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a2...-supercharger/

Then there's Hellcats. I could also being up the "T" word, but let's just not.

Quote:
Would like to keep this civil and an educational discussion please.
Translation: mods have fun with this thread.

If you are looking for bragging rights, there should be some specific areas where the G8x comes out in the top spot, particularly the G80 since its a sedan and high performance sedans are less prolific than coupes. The AWD model is also going to occupy a smaller niche too, with the M4 in particular being something of a neo-GT-R at a much lower price-point.

So maybe not necessarily game changing territory, but certainly great value at any rate.
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      09-23-2020, 11:26 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Short answer: "No".

That's what my gut says, anyway. Examples like this immediately come to mind:

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a2...-supercharger/

Then there's Hellcats. I could also being up the "T" word, but let's just not.



Translation: mods have fun with this thread.

If you are looking for bragging rights, there should be some specific areas where the G8x comes out in the top spot, particularly the G80 since its a sedan and high performance sedans are less prolific than coupes. The AWD model is also going to occupy a smaller niche too, with the M4 in particular being something of a neo-GT-R at a much lower price-point.

So maybe not necessarily game changing territory, but certainly great value at any rate.
Great response, high end muscle and electric were two classes that came to my mind as well. I feel like muscle is targeting a different market demographic and that the 60k+ point buyers are looking for a more sophisticated car so to speak. The neo-GTR comment is spot on for describing the M4.

I'll drop the Tesla word since im not myopic on brand and try to be objective...now that a model 3P and m4 are both about 4,000 lbs, does the G8x justify a 10-15k premium over a model 3P? while purists will hate this, battery range, cost, performance and weight will eventually push traditional ICU engines to innovate, for the benefit of us, the consumer. better yet i4m in 2028 anyone?
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      09-23-2020, 11:30 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Avaley View Post
I'll drop the Tesla word since im not myopic on brand and try to be objective...
Well, I wasn't avoiding it for reasons such as those, I was trying to keep the discussion from turning political and your thread from getting shut down. But we can see where it goes, sure.
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      09-23-2020, 11:38 AM   #5
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I think this will indeed be a new benchmark for performance.

It is completely nuts that with a stage 1 tune you get 600whp on pump 93.

Although I'm not the target audience for the AWD version (I don't care about 0-60) the performance is going to be quite nuts.


edit: look at this insanity:
Stage 1 (91-93) vs Stock

Last edited by SYT_Shadow; 09-23-2020 at 11:57 AM..
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      09-23-2020, 12:16 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
I think this will indeed be a new benchmark for performance.

It is completely nuts that with a stage 1 tune you get 600whp on pump 93.

Although I'm not the target audience for the AWD version (I don't care about 0-60) the performance is going to be quite nuts.


edit: look at this insanity:
Stage 1 (91-93) vs Stock
wow stage 1, no ethanol and before downpipes / exhaust....so 650 whp seems within reach.

What is Audi, MB, Porsche going to respond to this and the C8?
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      09-23-2020, 12:19 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
I think this will indeed be a new benchmark for performance.

It is completely nuts that with a stage 1 tune you get 600whp on pump 93.

Although I'm not the target audience for the AWD version (I don't care about 0-60) the performance is going to be quite nuts.


edit: look at this insanity:
Stage 1 (91-93) vs Stock
This is insane!!!

I also feel pretty good that the S58 engine has been out awhile in the X3M/X4M and that the tunes have been street tested thoroughly.

Everything we all did to our S55's, in most cases, we were the guinea pigs for.
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      09-23-2020, 12:20 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaley View Post
wow stage 1, no ethanol and before downpipes / exhaust....so 650 whp seems within reach.

What is Audi, MB, Porsche going to respond to this and the C8?
What blows my mind the most is the shape of the tuned power curves. It's like the turbos are sitting around saying "are you done yet? Cuz I ain't feelin' nuthin' "

That curve also tells me the new turbos (S58) are way bigger than the old ones (S55).

I can't think of any car that gains 150whp on 93 octane with just a stage 1 tune. It's just crazy. [Remember the comp dynos at 460whp on 93]
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      09-23-2020, 12:20 PM   #9
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Okay yea 650whp+ after stage 2....this video is with fuel change and ecu flash only does nearly 650.


Last edited by Avaley; 09-23-2020 at 01:00 PM..
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      09-23-2020, 12:24 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaley View Post
Okay yea 650whp+ after stage 2....

[url]https]
And we're still at the beginning of all of this. For sure Stg2 on 93 should do 650, but imagine E85 Stg2...

Massive, massive potential
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      09-23-2020, 01:01 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
And we're still at the beginning of all of this. For sure Stg2 on 93 should do 650, but imagine E85 Stg2...

Massive, massive potential
700whp car with FBO. Which I would dare to say 2.6-2.7s 0-60 and solid 10 second car with launch control before big turbos for AWD comp.
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      09-23-2020, 01:06 PM   #12
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Quote:
The technical document states S58 being possible to rev 7500 rpm
For sure, it sounds like the ECU tunes for the 6MT should increase to 7500rpm
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      09-23-2020, 01:18 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
For sure, it sounds like the ECU tunes for the 6MT should increase to 7500rpm
Watch out Porsche!!! The G80/82/G87 and C8 are going to be damn hard to beat at the sub 100k luxury performance sports car segment.
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      09-23-2020, 01:21 PM   #14
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I think the Tesla M3 is a good comp, but it's quite boring interior and exterior. Without going to far into it, the BMW M3/M4 at least look unique and "special". the Model 3 just looks like a bean.

C8 vs M4, unless you need the back seats, C8 imo. Maybe a 718 GTS or base 911, but those are quite a bit pricier. Your opinion on porsche may sway you that direction. I think they're very expensive for what you get.

M3 only competitor I can think of that will match as an all around package would be the upcoming C AMGs and those are supposedly moving to 4cyls.

as far as 4 door practicality and performance, the BMW M3 is the clear choice, unless you absolutely can't stand the you know what... I actually kind of like it haha
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Last edited by EricJTsang; 09-23-2020 at 01:22 PM.. Reason: added more thoughts
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      09-23-2020, 01:32 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
For sure, it sounds like the ECU tunes for the 6MT should increase to 7500rpm
Not to get too far off topic, but what was the deal with the lower redline? The auto tranny wasn't reliably able to rev that high?
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      09-23-2020, 01:34 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Avaley View Post
Watch out Porsche!!! The G80/82/G87 and C8 are going to be damn hard to beat at the sub 100k luxury performance sports car segment.
And it is untouchable in looks. The only 911's that look good to me are the GT cars.
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      09-23-2020, 01:35 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by kyleb350 View Post
Not to get too far off topic, but what was the deal with the lower redline? The auto tranny wasn't reliably able to rev that high?
Autos have fluid in them and the fluid can't be spun at certain speeds. It's a hard limitation due to the choice of abandoning the DCT.

They should have changed the redline for the 6MT as that does not share those limitations
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      09-23-2020, 01:42 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Autos have fluid in them and the fluid can't be spun at certain speeds. It's a hard limitation due to the choice of abandoning the DCT.

They should have changed the redline for the 6MT as that does not share those limitations
The trans aftermarket support should be able to help on making the trans better to some extent.

xHP flashtool is great on BMW trans and I'm sure they will work their magic on the M8HP76 and 6MT. While an 8AT will never be a DCT performance wise , the newest ones are darn good, im cautiously optimistic (fyi the purist in me died long ago).

Does anyone have any insight into the M8HP76 performance?
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      09-23-2020, 01:45 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaley View Post
wow stage 1, no ethanol and before downpipes / exhaust....so 650 whp seems within reach.

What is Audi, MB, Porsche going to respond to this and the C8?
Porsche could not care less to be honest. This car will be a porker on the track, will not have a lot of feedback and yet BMW will lose more drivers (and I say drivers who like the feel of a car) to Porsche. Sure you will gain more redlight drivers who like to hammer it because it can accelerate fast, if Porsche wanted those they can by the 911 Turbo S.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricJTsang View Post
I think the Tesla M3 is a good comp, but it's quite boring interior and exterior. Without going to far into it, the BMW M3/M4 at least look unique and "special". the Model 3 just looks like a bean.

C8 vs M4, unless you need the back seats, C8 imo. Maybe a 718 GTS or base 911, but those are quite a bit pricier. Your opinion on porsche may sway you that direction. I think they're very expensive for what you get.

M3 only competitor I can think of that will match as an all around package would be the upcoming C AMGs and those are supposedly moving to 4cyls.

as far as 4 door practicality and performance, the BMW M3 is the clear choice, unless you absolutely can't stand the you know what... I actually kind of like it haha
718 GTS outfitted correctly is about only 5-10k more than one of these will be outfitted. Not a lot more expensive. 911? Yea, but then you see the depreciation is a looooot less and then it doesn't matter after that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankiebones View Post
And it is untouchable in looks. The only 911's that look good to me are the GT cars.
Depends on how it is built, base wheels? yea, if you go with SPASM and set it up correctly the new 992s look amazing. 991.2 GTS and 991.2 T are also both good looking cars.
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      09-23-2020, 02:07 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
And we're still at the beginning of all of this. For sure Stg2 on 93 should do 650, but imagine E85 Stg2...

Massive, massive potential
Quarter mile times on dragy and vs a tuned M4 F82...







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      09-25-2020, 09:02 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaley View Post
Great response, high end muscle and electric were two classes that came to my mind as well. I feel like muscle is targeting a different market demographic and that the 60k+ point buyers are looking for a more sophisticated car so to speak. The neo-GTR comment is spot on for describing the M4.

I'll drop the Tesla word since im not myopic on brand and try to be objective...now that a model 3P and m4 are both about 4,000 lbs, does the G8x justify a 10-15k premium over a model 3P? while purists will hate this, battery range, cost, performance and weight will eventually push traditional ICU engines to innovate, for the benefit of us, the consumer. better yet i4m in 2028 anyone?

Speaking of i4m....this comes out a day after i joke about it and 7 years earlier than the number i pulled out of my butt dyno.

https://www.motor1.com/news/445431/b...del-confirmed/
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