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      09-26-2020, 02:44 AM   #1
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Nordschleife guesstimate thread

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Post your guess for G82 Competition RWD with track package.

Some references:
F82 “base”: 7:52
F90 Competition: 7:36

My guess: 7:34

Last edited by solstice; 09-26-2020 at 03:51 AM..
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      09-26-2020, 03:07 AM   #2
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Been thinking about this topic for a while. My guess is low 7:40 given below:

1) From E9X to F9X, the upgrade is significant - 100whp, much more advanced tyre, in a similarly weighed body, leading to a 10s faster ring time.

G8X to F8X, differences are 50whp + slightly better tire (only bigger in width) and a 300lbs heavier chassis. The AWD doesn't necessarily improve track time because of weight and imbalance, even 9114s cannot squeeze a better over the 2s..

I tend to believe G8X is smaller performance improvement over F8X than F8X over E9X. And thus 7:4X would be a legit estimate.

2) As mentioned, M5 is positioned at 7:36 and BMW would want a clear hierarchy as always.

3) if base/comp clocks at 7:3X, M34 CS needs to be in the 7:20 which is ridiculous. That's Audi R8 performance territory, a lighter, stronger ground up supercar and is what 992s is incapable of. Traditionally 991 base or S is equally fast or even faster than the ultimate M car (csl/gts). The BMW can claim 7:2X for the CSL of this gen though.

IMO, G8X would be a serious dragster like M never was before. But track performance improvement should be incremental like the evolution thru every generation.
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      09-26-2020, 03:25 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
Been thinking about this topic for a while. My guess is low 7:40 given below:

1) From E9X to F9X, the upgrade is significant - 100whp, much more advanced tyre, in a similarly weighed body, leading to a 10s faster ring time.

G8X to F8X, differences are 50whp + slightly better tire (only bigger in width) and a 300lbs heavier chassis. The AWD doesn't necessarily improve track time because of weight and imbalance, even 9114s cannot squeeze a better than over the 2s..

I tend to believe G8X is smaller performance improvement over F8X than F8X over E9X. And thus 7:4X would be a legit estimate.

2) As mentioned, M5 is positioned at 7:36 and BMW would want a clear hierarchy as always.

3) if base/comp clocks at 7:3X, M34 CS needs to be in the 7:20 which is ridiculous. That's Audi R8 performance territory, a lighter, stronger ground up supercar and is what 992s is incapable of. Traditionally 991 base or S is equally fast or even faster than the ultimate M car (csl/gts).

IMO, G8X would be a serious dragster like M never was before. But track performance improvement should be incremental like the evolution thru every generation.
Good analysis, though remember there is no talk or rumours of a CS but there is about a 600 hp CSL. I believe that’s going to be an absolute track monster with a time below 7:20...

Also your F8X vs G8X analysis is missing some facts, the G8X track package comes with Cup tires that are 20mm wider on 1.5” wider front track than F82 and the F82 7:52 time is set with 425 hp so the gap is 80 hp to the G82 comp.

Last edited by solstice; 09-26-2020 at 04:19 AM..
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      09-26-2020, 05:31 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Post your guess for G82 Competition RWD with track package.

Some references:
F82 “base”: 7:52
F90 Competition: 7:36

My guess: 7:34
If I am driving, at least 7:40 but I can’t vouch for other drivers
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      09-26-2020, 07:07 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Good analysis, though remember there is no talk or rumours of a CS but there is about a 600 hp CSL. I believe that’s going to be an absolute track monster with a time below 7:20...

Also your F8X vs G8X analysis is missing some facts, the G8X track package comes with Cup tires that are 20mm wider on 1.5” wider front track than F82 and the F82 7:52 time is set with 425 hp so the gap is 80 hp to the G82 comp.
Cup2’s are optional with the track package (which I am getting), correct? Because I can’t deal with them on a daily driver lol. Every time it rains it’s an adventure with a toddler in the backseat. I find PS4s to be a suitable compromise for spirited daily driving. I’m BARELY an intermediate track driver so tires don’t improve my times much.
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      09-26-2020, 09:45 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankiebones View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Good analysis, though remember there is no talk or rumours of a CS but there is about a 600 hp CSL. I believe that’s going to be an absolute track monster with a time below 7:20...

Also your F8X vs G8X analysis is missing some facts, the G8X track package comes with Cup tires that are 20mm wider on 1.5” wider front track than F82 and the F82 7:52 time is set with 425 hp so the gap is 80 hp to the G82 comp.
Cup2’s are optional with the track package (which I am getting), correct? Because I can’t deal with them on a daily driver lol. Every time it rains it’s an adventure with a toddler in the backseat. I find PS4s to be a suitable compromise for spirited daily driving. I’m BARELY an intermediate track driver so tires don’t improve my times much.
Instead of doing a track pack like most of the ROW it seems for the US bmw is offering all those options a la carte
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      09-26-2020, 09:53 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Post your guess for G82 Competition RWD with track package.

Some references:
F82 “base”: 7:52
F90 Competition: 7:36

My guess: 7:34
I reckon you’ll see a time sub 7:30 and possibly 7:28. The acceleration won’t be a million miles away from that of the M5 Comp but it should corner and brake harder both things that should make up the difference.
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      09-26-2020, 10:12 AM   #8
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Based on the numbers quoted in the OP, I am assuming we are discussing the AMS/SA Supertest laptime here and not the BMW factory time.

IMO it will depend what tires are fitted to the G8X. If the optional PSC2 are fitted, it will make a non-negligible difference. On the base PS4S, I would guess a 7:40~7:45. I doubt it can beat the F90C since the F90C has a massive ~12% power-to-weight advantage, which counts for a lot on the 'ring.

I however have a strong hunch that the press car given to AMS/SA will be shod with the PSC2 to get the best possible time. If that's the case, my guess is a 7:37~7:42 time.
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Last edited by CanAutM3; 09-26-2020 at 11:36 AM..
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      09-26-2020, 10:47 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
I reckon you’ll see a time sub 7:30 and possibly 7:28. The acceleration won’t be a million miles away from that of the M5 Comp but it should corner and brake harder both things that should make up the difference.
That’s closer to my AWD guess. High speed acceleration is more about peak power vs drag than it’s about power per weight and the M5C should have enough edge here that it seem tough to make up and beat to this level by the G82 RWD’s other advantages on a high speed circuit like this.

Last edited by solstice; 09-26-2020 at 11:05 AM..
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      09-26-2020, 11:32 AM   #10
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7:29 for the G82 and 7:31 for the G80, both competition AWD. I think the engine improvements are being underrated by both BMW and the enthusiast community. G8x will compete at times close to supercars 2x+ more expensive imho.

G87 M2C does it in 7:22 to 7:25. M2CS does it sub 7:20.

2021 GT4 RS PDK blows everyone away with a 7:00 time.

Source: I'm pulling these numbers out of my ass based on watching the test vehicles around the ring on youtube, the power to weight officially released statistics and waving my finger in the air.
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Last edited by Avaley; 09-28-2020 at 04:41 PM..
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      09-26-2020, 12:21 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaley View Post
I think the engine improvements are being underrated by both BMW and the enthusiast community.
Manufacturers cannot cheat on power ratings, it is governed by strict standards. However, modern turbocharged engine behave in a certain way that make them seem underrated relative to the testing standards. So comparing the official power ratings of previous NA engines with the modern turbo engine in not apples-to-apples. However, comparing the S55 to S58 is. The S58 will not seem any more underrated than the S55 was.
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      09-26-2020, 12:26 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Manufacturers cannot cheat on power ratings, it is governed by strict standards. However, modern turbocharged engine behave in a certain way that make them seem underrated relative to the testing standards. So comparing the official power ratings of previous NA engines with the modern turbo engine in not apples-to-apples. However, comparing the S55 to S58 is. The S58 will not seem any more underrated than the S55 was.
Fair point.

There is an S58 dyno thread that got moved to the versus page.

Based on the preliminary dyno numbers, the S58 dyno numbers as a relative percentage from the factory are more underrated than the S55, and X3M have thus far shown a larger overhead for S58 tuning than one would expect.

Drivers of both S55 and S58 acknowledge an improvement in power and throttle response for the newer engine which should be no surprise.

The more important question the S58 make up for the 300lbs?
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      09-26-2020, 12:29 PM   #13
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Talking about ring times. We are also waiting for the M5CS which will make many spit out their morning coffee. Whatever time the G82C does the M5CS will restore hierarchy.
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      09-26-2020, 12:30 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaley View Post
Fair point.

There is an S58 dyno thread that got moved to the versus page.

Based on the preliminary dyno numbers, the S58 dyno numbers as a relative percentage from the factory are more underrated than the S55, and X3M have thus far shown a larger overhead for S58 tuning than one would expect.

Drivers of both S55 and S58 acknowledge an improvement in power and throttle response for the newer engine which should be no surprise.

The more important question the S58 make up for the 300lbs?
I am talking stock-for-stock, not aftermarket tuned. But yes, the S58 more than likely has tons of thermodynamic reserves. The initial factory tunes are probably quite conservative to allow room for the CS and CSL variants.
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      09-26-2020, 12:36 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I am talking stock-for-stock, not aftermarket tuned. But yes, the S58 more than likely has tons of thermodynamic reserves. The initial factory tunes are probably quite conservative to allow room for the CS and CSL variants.
solstice and I were looking at some of the tuning numbers for the S58 and think we concluded it should be a crime to not flash the S58 given it can do 600whp with only E50 and a ecu tune
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      09-26-2020, 12:38 PM   #16
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Here is the S58 tuning thread:

https://g80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1760334

IS 200+ bhp per liter of displacement impressive to anyone else or just me?

Point being, I think the distribution outcome curve of Ring expected times are right tail skewed
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      09-26-2020, 03:14 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
That’s closer to my AWD guess. High speed acceleration is more about peak power vs drag than it’s about power per weight and the M5C should have enough edge here that it seem tough to make up and beat to this level by the G82 RWD’s other advantages on a high speed circuit like this.
I must admit I was thinking about the AWD version when I suggested those figures. The power advantage of the F90 M5 Comp isn’t as important as some think, weight is king for both cornering and braking, the more speed you can carry through a corner and the less distance needed to wipe of speed are critical to getting a great lap time.
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      09-26-2020, 03:22 PM   #18
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I'll be disappointed with anything over 7:40
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      09-26-2020, 04:57 PM   #19
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Mid 7:30's..... Low 7:30's with Cup 2's.
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      09-28-2020, 11:39 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
Been thinking about this topic for a while. My guess is low 7:40 given below:

1) From E9X to F9X, the upgrade is significant - 100whp, much more advanced tyre, in a similarly weighed body, leading to a 10s faster ring time.

G8X to F8X, differences are 50whp + slightly better tire (only bigger in width) and a 300lbs heavier chassis. The AWD doesn't necessarily improve track time because of weight and imbalance, even 9114s cannot squeeze a better over the 2s..

I tend to believe G8X is smaller performance improvement over F8X than F8X over E9X. And thus 7:4X would be a legit estimate.

2) As mentioned, M5 is positioned at 7:36 and BMW would want a clear hierarchy as always.

3) if base/comp clocks at 7:3X, M34 CS needs to be in the 7:20 which is ridiculous. That's Audi R8 performance territory, a lighter, stronger ground up supercar and is what 992s is incapable of. Traditionally 991 base or S is equally fast or even faster than the ultimate M car (csl/gts). The BMW can claim 7:2X for the CSL of this gen though.

IMO, G8X would be a serious dragster like M never was before. But track performance improvement should be incremental like the evolution thru every generation.
I think 7:4x for the M3/4 Competiton. Maybe with Cup tires they can get into the 7:3x range.

Not sure what you mean incapable of for the 992 as its times show its very capable of 7:20 and likely will hit it with the GTS given the 992S ran 7:25 (on PZeros). Even the now generation previous 991.2 GTS did 7:25 on Pzeros and 7:22 from Sport Auto on Cups). Damn impressive for a sub 450 hp car. The GT4 did 7:28 which is insane given it’s manual and only 414 hp - I think the 718 GT4 PDK is going to be 7:18-7:20. I think the turbo S will be close to 7:00 align with the 992 GT3 which will only have 520 hp from the rumors.
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      09-28-2020, 11:55 AM   #21
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The C63S coupe did it in 7:44, so I would say the RWD M3 comp auto, would be 7:40, or with Cup2s, 7:30.
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      09-28-2020, 04:04 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I am talking stock-for-stock, not aftermarket tuned. But yes, the S58 more than likely has tons of thermodynamic reserves. The initial factory tunes are probably quite conservative to allow room for the CS and CSL variants.
Yes, the stage 1 tune graphs show it has a completely absurd amount of room left in it


Responding to the thread, I'm expecting 7:3X with PSC2 tires and RWD 8AT.
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