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View Poll Results: DCT or traditional AT?
I prefer a DCT. 219 59.67%
I prefer a traditional AT. 30 8.17%
Either is fine with me. 52 14.17%
I don't care. No manual, no purchase. 66 17.98%
Voters: 367. You may not vote on this poll

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      10-28-2019, 08:22 AM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
Based on the street logic, it would make more sense to get a Mercedes C63 if I wanted a slush auto RWD; it would ride better and have better interior..
Have you put many miles on the C63?
Because the interior is not any better, it does stupid things like turn on the display when you change the volume of the music if you're driving at night and want a stealth look interior.
The ride is also firmer than the M3, you can clearly tell when you drive over painted lines on the road.
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      10-29-2019, 11:49 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Have you put many miles on the C63?
Because the interior is not any better, it does stupid things like turn on the display when you change the volume of the music if you're driving at night and want a stealth look interior.
The ride is also firmer than the M3, you can clearly tell when you drive over painted lines on the road.
10,000km on AMG E43.

I found the 9 speed to be the gem. It did however overheat after 3 hours of continuous use on highway on a rental C43 AMG (clutch isn't locked up anymore on downshifts) but never on E43.

M3's interior is simple and "down to earth" but convenience-wise I found the AMG real time navigation to be extremely helpful on crowded streets.

Ride is definitely firmer than M's nowadays, which is mostly due to large wheels (20 inch) with less aspect ratio than most. You can solve this by going with 19 inch and inflated tires on streets. E43 felt really nimble on mountain roads (~90% of E92 M3) on comfort mode. The only AMG I've driven on track is AMG GT S and I was very impressed with the progress they've made over the last decade.
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      11-22-2019, 11:18 PM   #157
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No DCT = no purchase. I’m not spending 90K for the generic ZF8 powered M350i. ZF’s paddle shift response is slow, and you cannot raise the rev limiter because of oil cavitation unlike MT/DCT.

Sad.
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      11-22-2019, 11:33 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
No DCT = no purchase.
This.

M2 comp gets a DCT - M3 the flagship M car gets an 8 speed ZF. Go figure.
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      11-22-2019, 11:55 PM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drgmt View Post
This.

M2 comp gets a DCT - M3 the flagship M car gets an 8 speed ZF. Go figure.
The current M3/M4 have DCT just like the current M2... the next m2 won't have DCT just like the all the new generation Ms.

The DCT is more fun when you're really on it. The ZF doesn't have the neck breaking response. But, the ZF is better at everything else, at least for me using the M5 as a daily. Its 95% as fast shifting. I'm an old man at 38 though and don't miss the clunkiness

On track I would prefer the DCT.

As far as AWD, the M xdrive is very very good. MDM feels rear wheel but without the traction light going off every 3 seconds like it did in the f80/82. It just makes more sense when you're hitting 500HP and above.
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      11-23-2019, 12:28 AM   #160
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F8x DCT is awesome. Too bad bmw is tapping out like the rest of the cost cutting lot.

F8x is my last M car.
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      11-23-2019, 12:34 AM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THEROK View Post
F8x DCT is awesome. Too bad bmw is tapping out like the rest of the cost cutting lot.

F8x is my last M car.
<waves>

See ya!
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      11-24-2019, 04:12 AM   #162
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It's funny because F8x was offered with DCT AND 6MT without even a question. The real questions back then were "how much will the car be lighter?" "How high will the turbo inline 6 rev so I don't have to shift before a corner?"

Now we are here bitching about BMW dropping DCT for the generic ZF slushbox. With compression ratio as low as 9.0:1 (which translates to higher boost), this engine and transmission will likely be one of BMW's worst combinations of all time in terms of response. I don't want to fucking drive a lowered X3M.

If BMW M3 no longer offers the exotic experience through dedicated hardware then there is absolutely no reason for normal people who don't track their cars to buy an ugly ass M3.
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      11-24-2019, 05:15 AM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THEROK View Post
F8x DCT is awesome. Too bad bmw is tapping out like the rest of the cost cutting lot.

F8x is my last M car.
Yeah me to.

I'll be switching to a 911.
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      11-24-2019, 10:17 AM   #164
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Just to clarify. Automatic = DCT? If it means torque converter auto that would be disappointing.

The timing is way out there. I might have to look at a Carrera.
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      11-24-2019, 11:06 AM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisM2 View Post
Just to clarify. Automatic = DCT? If it means torque converter auto that would be disappointing.

The timing is way out there. I might have to look at a Carrera.
There are entire long threads on the fact that the G8x M cars will have the ZF8 transmission. It does have a torque converter - that allegedly locks up quite quickly.

That doesn't bother me anywhere near as much as the fact that the ZF8 is really horrible to drive using the paddles (at least in the X3M). Very close gear ratios, not much rev range, and it won't downshift when you want it to.

In short, it's a transmission that only works when driven in 'full auto' ... where it's normally configured to save fuel (i.e. it will be in 8th gear by 30mph). They make a big deal out of the fact that it can 'change down many gears at once (from 8th to 2nd!) but this is just hiding the fact that it was in the wrong gear to begin with.

Yes, you can drive it in 'Sport+++' mode - where it will just keep the revs higher *all the time* ... but the whole point of a DCT is that it was essentially a manual gearbox without the badly designed 3-pedal user interface. I got to time my gear changes. I got to choose my revs. I don't need to use my left foot, and take one hand off the steering wheel to do that. (and change which hand I use to shift gears based on which country I'm driving in )

You can build the fanciest auto transmission you like, but it can't predict the future, so it doesn't know when the next bend is, or how fast I want to take it. Given that, you necessarily end up putting a whole lot of effort into making sure that a gear change at the wrong time doesn't put the car in a spin. The result is something that is smooth, bland and unengaging for the driver.


Oh... and I completely agree with your comment on the release timing. A 2 year gap where I can't upgrade my M car is just no longer acceptable.
I really think I'm going to have to go for an M2 Comp/CS to tide me over until I can see whether they pull something magic out of the bag with the G82 (but it's not looking very promising right now)

Last edited by pbar; 11-24-2019 at 11:27 AM..
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      11-24-2019, 02:39 PM   #166
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What a cluster*.

No DCT.

AWD with a slushbox.

And basically admitting they canít put the power down because the entire concept doesnít work anymore in a market where they compete on ridiculous horsepower specs. They are no longer able to compete on the brand level.

Hereís one car that has traction on rear wheels. Porshe Carrera. With a proper DCT transmission. And itís not competing on HP numbers.

Nobody wants more horsepower anymore. Drop it to 400, make a lighter chassis, build a less laggy engine that delivers power linearly instead of abruptly, and you can have a real RWD sports car.

BMW M has lost it. Iíve had multiple but this looks like theyíve put themselves in a trap. Electric is squeezing them from one side and real traditional sports cars from the other.
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      11-24-2019, 10:16 PM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbar View Post
There are entire long threads on the fact that the G8x M cars will have the ZF8 transmission. It does have a torque converter - that allegedly locks up quite quickly.

That doesn't bother me anywhere near as much as the fact that the ZF8 is really horrible to drive using the paddles (at least in the X3M). Very close gear ratios, not much rev range, and it won't downshift when you want it to.

In short, it's a transmission that only works when driven in 'full auto' ... where it's normally configured to save fuel (i.e. it will be in 8th gear by 30mph). They make a big deal out of the fact that it can 'change down many gears at once (from 8th to 2nd!) but this is just hiding the fact that it was in the wrong gear to begin with.

Yes, you can drive it in 'Sport+++' mode - where it will just keep the revs higher *all the time* ... but the whole point of a DCT is that it was essentially a manual gearbox without the badly designed 3-pedal user interface. I got to time my gear changes. I got to choose my revs. I don't need to use my left foot, and take one hand off the steering wheel to do that. (and change which hand I use to shift gears based on which country I'm driving in )

You can build the fanciest auto transmission you like, but it can't predict the future, so it doesn't know when the next bend is, or how fast I want to take it. Given that, you necessarily end up putting a whole lot of effort into making sure that a gear change at the wrong time doesn't put the car in a spin. The result is something that is smooth, bland and unengaging for the driver.


Oh... and I completely agree with your comment on the release timing. A 2 year gap where I can't upgrade my M car is just no longer acceptable.
I really think I'm going to have to go for an M2 Comp/CS to tide me over until I can see whether they pull something magic out of the bag with the G82 (but it's not looking very promising right now)
Current M CEO uses superlatives like "legend" to describe M3/4 yet makes the car generic to satisfy bean counters and amateurs who can't be bothered to shift themselves.

M-DCT is the signature piece of the transmission. It's the fastest, harshest, uncompromising; it's an embodiment of motorsport evolution. On the other hand, ZF clearly states on their website that ZF8 is geared towards comfort and efficiency (i.e. fuel saving).

911's official "purest variant" is the lightest and fastest; that means having RWD only and PDK (GT3, GT2). To Porsche, MT was an afterthought to satisfy old schoolers.

I can't help but think this new CEO came from marketing department and this MT hype is one of their marketing strategies. What was once a given has to be hyped so that users don't complain about not having a DCT. "Ooh we tried so hard to give manual transmission so please don't complain about dropping DCT." They are fully aware that they will lose an appreciable portion of market as MT demand continues to be stable at this price range. We also know that this high development cost hype is horse shit as 6MT from F1x M5/M6 is rated for 680Nm and more and the next G8x M3/4 will likely use this variant to save cost.
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      11-25-2019, 02:49 PM   #168
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I'm excited to see what they'll do with the new M3. I was never interested in the DCT, so the switch to ZF 8 speed doesn't bother me. I can see how it would bother others because I've heard that this powertrain combo in the X3-M is pretty laggy. Given all this, there's more reason now to go with the manual. This new S58 sounds great in the X3M/X4M. I just hope that they manage to make the power delivery more progressive because it was explosive on early F80 models. I'm hoping for more natural steering with more feedback than the F80, a ride that won't be ridiculously harsh, and a higher quality cabin than the F80. Honestly, if they just manage to get the steering right and achieve more linear power delivery I'm sure it'll be praised vs. the F80.
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      11-25-2019, 03:06 PM   #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drgmt View Post
Yeah me to.

I'll be switching to a 911.
I don't understand how people say this so flippantly like the cars are the same price.

A perfectly optioned F82 M4 costs $80k before taxes.
A perfectly optioned Carrera S costs $130k before taxes.

That is a HUGE price difference.
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      11-25-2019, 03:48 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apascutia View Post
Honestly, if they just manage to get the steering right and achieve more linear power delivery I'm sure it'll be praised vs. the F80.
The X3M Comp obviously doesn't give any clues about steering feel (tractor tires!), but I can safely say that power delivery is *way* less linear than my F82.

Wait ... wait... wait..... whoosh ... revlimiter.

This is why it's really hard to drive using the paddles - 8 spd auto means close ratios and you really have to keep on top of the shift timing. Lose the boost and you're in a world of pain. Plus the (gear change) lag on downshifts is a nightmare.

In short, it drives OK and accelerates like a beast if you let the auto box do everything and enjoy 'point and shoot' - but that's not a driver's car.

Last edited by pbar; 11-25-2019 at 05:13 PM..
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      11-25-2019, 04:21 PM   #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbar View Post
The X3M Comp obviously doesn't give any clues about steering feel (tractor tires!), but I can safely say that power delivery is *way* less linear than my F82.

Wait ... wait... wait..... whoosh ... revlimiter.

This is why it's really hard to drive using the paddles - 8 spd auto means close ratios and you really have to keep on top of the shift timing. Lose the boost and you're in a world of pain. Plus the lag on downshifts is a nightmare.
I’ve not driven the X3M/X4M but I’m not liking the sound of this. BMW revolutionized the high power FI engine with the N54. High compression rate, low boost with dual small turbos that spun up quickly. The result was an FI engine with quick response and healthy power bump.

They managed to lift the power with 50% from there culminating in the M3CS engine and retain those characteristics

If this was the limit for the 3l I6 with no compromises and to reach 500+ hp it was needed to decrease compression and increase shovel size (inertia/lag) that’s not worth it. Then the engine need more displacement or power should have remained on S55 level IMO.

And yes, an AT can hide much of the lag as it did back in the 80s when huge lag was rampant in FI engines.
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      11-25-2019, 04:53 PM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PKL View Post
I don't understand how people say this so flippantly like the cars are the same price.

A perfectly optioned F82 M4 costs $80k before taxes.
A perfectly optioned Carrera S costs $130k before taxes.

That is a HUGE price difference.
+100000

I never understood comments like that. Very different cars at very different price points. The 1br condo in the ghetto isnt that appealing, I guess Ill just get the penthouse downtown.
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      11-25-2019, 05:26 PM   #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbar View Post
The X3M Comp obviously doesn't give any clues about steering feel (tractor tires!), but I can safely say that power delivery is *way* less linear than my F82.

Wait ... wait... wait..... whoosh ... revlimiter.

This is why it's really hard to drive using the paddles - 8 spd auto means close ratios and you really have to keep on top of the shift timing. Lose the boost and you're in a world of pain. Plus the (gear change) lag on downshifts is a nightmare.

In short, it drives OK and accelerates like a beast if you let the auto box do everything and enjoy 'point and shoot' - but that's not a driver's car.
Has anyone seen a video that shows what @apascutia wrote?
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      11-25-2019, 05:43 PM   #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PKL View Post
I don't understand how people say this so flippantly like the cars are the same price.

A perfectly optioned F82 M4 costs $80k before taxes.
A perfectly optioned Carrera S costs $130k before taxes.

That is a HUGE price difference.
CPO. Maybe you've heard of it?

A couple year old 911 can go for around $80k.

Just saying.
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      11-25-2019, 05:48 PM   #175
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Quote:
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CPO. Maybe you've heard of it?

A couple year old 911 can go for around $80k.

Just saying.
Kind of. If you are okay with PDK transmission you will probably find something close to what you want. For someone like myself who would only consider a Manual, it's virtually impossible to find what you want on the used market.

And even then you are comparing a NEW M4, which would still cost less money than a CPO 911.
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      11-25-2019, 06:16 PM   #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Iíve not driven the X3M/X4M but Iím not liking the sound of this. BMW revolutionized the high power FI engine with the N54. High compression rate, low boost with dual small turbos that spun up quickly. The result was an FI engine with quick response and healthy power bump.

They managed to lift the power with 50% from there culminating in the M3CS engine and retain those characteristics

If this was the limit for the 3l I6 with no compromises and to reach 500+ hp it was needed to decrease compression and increase shovel size (inertia/lag) thatís not worth it. Then the engine need more displacement or power should have remained on S55 level IMO.

And yes, an AT can hide much of the lag as it did back in the 80s when huge lag was rampant in FI engines.
It's a bit concerning.

Are they trying to turn it into a GT car or something???
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