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View Poll Results: DCT or traditional AT?
I prefer a DCT. 219 59.67%
I prefer a traditional AT. 30 8.17%
Either is fine with me. 52 14.17%
I don't care. No manual, no purchase. 66 17.98%
Voters: 367. You may not vote on this poll

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      05-12-2020, 06:31 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by AlejoEvo View Post
The car is running really well in the video. I think we will not be dissatisfied or disappointed with the automatic transmission.

BTW, isn't the M8 automatic? And I saw a video of an M8 in a track and I loved what I saw!
If automatics were better - don’t you think Porsche and Ferrari would be using them? DCT will always be faster but auto will be better when sitting in traffic.
Its pure cost cutting by BMW.
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      05-12-2020, 07:34 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by R N M View Post
If automatics were better - don’t you think Porsche and Ferrari would be using them? DCT will always be faster but auto will be better when sitting in traffic.
Its pure cost cutting by BMW.
It's not cost cutting. It's delivering what about 99% of the people want. How many of M3/M4 do you think see a track in their lifetime, let alone on a regular basis? Yes, a DCT would result in better lap times, but those cars will still be on a regular road with bumper to bumper traffic the vast majority of the time and the converter auto will be much better suited for this use case. I can assure you, they did think about which auto to put into the M3, but in the end it is as always with companies: They don't care about your (individual) feeling, they don't care too much about heritage or whatever bs, the only thing that matters is money. If they predict they will sell more cars by going with a converter auto than loosing sales from some people that want to track the car, you sure can bet they will put a converter auto into the M3. And if it's cheaper for BMW to do so, that's even better!
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      05-12-2020, 07:57 PM   #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flamingi View Post
It's not cost cutting. It's delivering what about 99% of the people want. How many of M3/M4 do you think see a track in their lifetime, let alone on a regular basis? Yes, a DCT would result in better lap times, but those cars will still be on a regular road with bumper to bumper traffic the vast majority of the time and the converter auto will be much better suited for this use case. I can assure you, they did think about which auto to put into the M3, but in the end it is as always with companies: They don't care about your (individual) feeling, they don't care too much about heritage or whatever bs, the only thing that matters is money. If they predict they will sell more cars by going with a converter auto than loosing sales from some people that want to track the car, you sure can bet they will put a converter auto into the M3. And if it's cheaper for BMW to do so, that's even better!
I disagree with you on this. BMW has loyal fans and the M3 is a product with a high standard and reputation. The little amount of cost cutting associated with this move will hurt the company's reputation on the long run. As someone who owns and enjoys DCT vehicles, I would not purchase an Auto. I will be forced to buy a manual (which I am not complaining about) but it's sad to see BMW go soft on this issue. The 8 speed is a great automatic, but it is nowhere as good as the DCT. M cars have a standard just like Porsche, and DCT should remain in these vehicles.
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      05-12-2020, 08:52 PM   #268
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I disagree with you on this. BMW has loyal fans and the M3 is a product with a high standard and reputation. The little amount of cost cutting associated with this move will hurt the company's reputation on the long run. As someone who owns and enjoys DCT vehicles, I would not purchase an Auto. I will be forced to buy a manual (which I am not complaining about) but it's sad to see BMW go soft on this issue. The 8 speed is a great automatic, but it is nowhere as good as the DCT. M cars have a standard just like Porsche, and DCT should remain in these vehicles.
The M3 will retain this high standard, after all the G80 will be better in pretty much any aspect than the F80, and I don't think there is any reputation to hold for the DCT transmission. To be honest, I think the DCT in the F82 is utter trash. Not on the track, there it is brilliant (or well, at least better than on the road, not quite on the level of PDK), but like I said before, 99% of people (me included) drive this car on the road to work and back and the ocasional joy ride on a weekend. I did enjoy my laps on the Nürburgring, and there the DCT was the best option to go for, but that transmission was such a downgrade for daily driving, that I traded the car in after 6 months. Overall I don't think there will be any long lasting effects, in contrary I even think the G80 will be more successfull with a converter auto than the DCT.

The group of people who care about the DCT is a very, very small minority and I'm pretty sure they are outnumbered by the group who prefers a converter auto and 95% of the people will probably just not care or know any difference.
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      05-12-2020, 10:23 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by Flamingi View Post
The M3 will retain this high standard, after all the G80 will be better in pretty much any aspect than the F80, and I don't think there is any reputation to hold for the DCT transmission. To be honest, I think the DCT in the F82 is utter trash. Not on the track, there it is brilliant (or well, at least better than on the road, not quite on the level of PDK), but like I said before, 99% of people (me included) drive this car on the road to work and back and the ocasional joy ride on a weekend. I did enjoy my laps on the Nürburgring, and there the DCT was the best option to go for, but that transmission was such a downgrade for daily driving, that I traded the car in after 6 months. Overall I don't think there will be any long lasting effects, in contrary I even think the G80 will be more successfull with a converter auto than the DCT.

The group of people who care about the DCT is a very, very small minority and I'm pretty sure they are outnumbered by the group who prefers a converter auto and 95% of the people will probably just not care or know any difference.
So basically you bought the wrong car. You sit in traffic 99% of the time then buy a car for that purpose bec M3s shouldn’t be used for that. They should be first for Performance driving but also still serve as commuter car. I’m sure you complain how uncomfortable the suspension is over potholes.

M cars should be for the minority that want ultimate performance. If you want auto buy M340i. This is just watered down M car. Whats next no more widebody lol

I wish BMW would copy Porsche- build a car for the masses (911) but then offer a raw performance version a la GT3/GT3RS.
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      05-12-2020, 10:23 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by Flamingi View Post
The M3 will retain this high standard, after all the G80 will be better in pretty much any aspect than the F80, and I don't think there is any reputation to hold for the DCT transmission. To be honest, I think the DCT in the F82 is utter trash. Not on the track, there it is brilliant (or well, at least better than on the road, not quite on the level of PDK), but like I said before, 99% of people (me included) drive this car on the road to work and back and the ocasional joy ride on a weekend. I did enjoy my laps on the Nürburgring, and there the DCT was the best option to go for, but that transmission was such a downgrade for daily driving, that I traded the car in after 6 months. Overall I don't think there will be any long lasting effects, in contrary I even think the G80 will be more successfull with a converter auto than the DCT.

The group of people who care about the DCT is a very, very small minority and I'm pretty sure they are outnumbered by the group who prefers a converter auto and 95% of the people will probably just not care or know any difference.
Albert Biermann who was with M since E30 M3 left the division when the board decided not to use DCT on F90 M5, presumably because he understood this was not about the brand not using a particular element but also their reluctance to pioneer motorsport spirit on which the subbrand was founded.
VW doesn't touch Porsche GT division or Lamborghini with their car developments because they understand strong, loyal enthusiast pool is what kept the brand identity.

If BMW M is a mere "exaggeration" of BMWs instead of a separate entity like Markus Flasch said, that's fine. But they should stop referring back to old DTM cars that made them successful because M isn't making street legal DTM cars with their recent products. It is misleading to customers.
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      05-12-2020, 11:33 PM   #271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeA View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flamingi View Post
It's not cost cutting. It's delivering what about 99% of the people want. How many of M3/M4 do you think see a track in their lifetime, let alone on a regular basis? Yes, a DCT would result in better lap times, but those cars will still be on a regular road with bumper to bumper traffic the vast majority of the time and the converter auto will be much better suited for this use case. I can assure you, they did think about which auto to put into the M3, but in the end it is as always with companies: They don't care about your (individual) feeling, they don't care too much about heritage or whatever bs, the only thing that matters is money. If they predict they will sell more cars by going with a converter auto than loosing sales from some people that want to track the car, you sure can bet they will put a converter auto into the M3. And if it's cheaper for BMW to do so, that's even better!
I disagree with you on this. BMW has loyal fans and the M3 is a product with a high standard and reputation. The little amount of cost cutting associated with this move will hurt the company's reputation on the long run. As someone who owns and enjoys DCT vehicles, I would not purchase an Auto. I will be forced to buy a manual (which I am not complaining about) but it's sad to see BMW go soft on this issue. The 8 speed is a great automatic, but it is nowhere as good as the DCT. M cars have a standard just like Porsche, and DCT should remain in these vehicles.
Your totally kidding yourself if you think BMW isn't there for the $$.

I think it was cool we got 2 generation of M cars (+ 1gen M2) with a DCT but BMW moving to those quick shifting zf's is not surprising me at all. ZF sells so many of these I would not be surprised they will be saving a considerable amount of $ on every car.

As for M heritage, we are already far from it with electric steering, turbo engines with 500hp etc. Even long time 911 owners say the 997 is the last one that 'feels' like the all time famed 911.

It's easy to observate how BMW went from special Motorsports derived regular series cars to M marketing money making models, the first X5M is proof they understood this a while ago and they continue building on it.

Oh and yeah, they absolutely don't care what you think unless it has do to with buying a new car from them.
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      05-13-2020, 12:00 AM   #272
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It's funny, the F90 M5 forum had (and still has) the same discussion about the loss of the DCT in the F10 M5 and the move to the ZF in the F90 M5.

I own an F90 M5. Let's face it, the ZF covers all the bases (track, highway, commuting, traffic, stop and go city grind) better than the DCT. And BMW is in the business of selling cars with the highest profit possible. So M cars get ZFs. Can you blame them?

That said, I'll take my next M car with a 6-speed manual. G80 M3 Pure please.
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      05-13-2020, 12:43 AM   #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R N M View Post
So basically you bought the wrong car. You sit in traffic 99% of the time then buy a car for that purpose bec M3s shouldn’t be used for that. They should be first for Performance driving but also still serve as commuter car. I’m sure you complain how uncomfortable the suspension is over potholes.

M cars should be for the minority that want ultimate performance. If you want auto buy M340i. This is just watered down M car. Whats next no more widebody lol

I wish BMW would copy Porsche- build a car for the masses (911) but then offer a raw performance version a la GT3/GT3RS.
100% agree. Fed up of hearing people who buy a 'motorsport inspired' car and then complain about the suspension not being soft enough and the transmission being raw.

Reminds me of the Top Gear episode where James May showed up for a 1000 mile road trip across some country in a 911 GT3 RS and Clarkson/Hammond fell about laughing saying "you brought the wrong car". 200 miles later he was dripping with sweat and cursing every time the car hit a pothole.

I will totally take that tradeoff. I am even happy daily driving a car with an "automated manual" sequential gearbox because it brings a smile to my face every time. There are one or two things I don't like about the M-DCT (e.g. lack of clutch control reversing up a hill to parallel park), but saying that "it's total trash" because you bought the wrong car just makes me laugh.

...and cry. Because BMW's marketing people listen to crap like that.

I've said this before, but I really think that BMW should make the M340i the most expensive model in the range. (just add $10K to the price!). That way certain folks will be able to buy it and be happy, rather than buying an M and being sad.

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      05-13-2020, 08:16 AM   #274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R N M View Post
So basically you bought the wrong car. You sit in traffic 99% of the time then buy a car for that purpose bec M3s shouldn’t be used for that. They should be first for Performance driving but also still serve as commuter car. I’m sure you complain how uncomfortable the suspension is over potholes.

M cars should be for the minority that want ultimate performance. If you want auto buy M340i. This is just watered down M car. Whats next no more widebody lol

I wish BMW would copy Porsche- build a car for the masses (911) but then offer a raw performance version a la GT3/GT3RS.
I agree, the M3 would be the wrong car, if it was like you want it to be. But it isn't like you want it to be, it will not have a DCT. People are buying the car not based on what they want the car to be, what the car should have been or what the heritage dictates, but based on what the car is. And this car will have a converter auto and this is why it will be the right car, even for bumper to bumper traffic. The problem is, that nobody will buy the car, except for a very small minority, if the car was how you want it to be: Radical, DCT, track focused, hard suspension setup etc.

BMW is still a company, and the only thing that matters is $$$. They will sell so much more cars if going with a more road focused car than a track focused car. If you want track, you can still buy the M4 GT4, all the things you want and even more. The G80 is a road legal car, 99% of the time it will be on a road and it is not suprising at all, that BMW went with the converter auto. And to be fair, the ZF 8-speed is the best one available today, you're not loosing much compared to last gen DCT while gaining a load of comfort, which is what pretty much everyone outside this forum wants. You have to remember, this forum has a skewed view, of course you will find many more people here that would want to have a DCT, but believe me when I say BMW did listen to their customers and they did what their customers wanted: a converter auto. Probably in breach of my NDA now, but do you know what the #1 complaint was about the M3/M4? It was the transmission.

And if you argue, that M is special, they don't care about money or sales numbers. No that's wrong, why do you think does M have more SUVs than sports cars? Why do you think the X3 is the most sold M car? If you want to understand the decision of a company on why they did something the way they did, I can guarantee you 99% of the time $$$ was the most important factor for that decision.

Last edited by Flamingi; 05-13-2020 at 08:28 AM..
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      05-13-2020, 09:08 AM   #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weingarm View Post
It's funny, the F90 M5 forum had (and still has) the same discussion about the loss of the DCT in the F10 M5 and the move to the ZF in the F90 M5.

I own an F90 M5. Let's face it, the ZF covers all the bases (track, highway, commuting, traffic, stop and go city grind) better than the DCT. And BMW is in the business of selling cars with the highest profit possible. So M cars get ZFs. Can you blame them?

That said, I'll take my next M car with a 6-speed manual. G80 M3 Pure please.
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      05-13-2020, 09:28 AM   #276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R N M View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlejoEvo View Post
The car is running really well in the video. I think we will not be dissatisfied or disappointed with the automatic transmission.

BTW, isn't the M8 automatic? And I saw a video of an M8 in a track and I loved what I saw!
If automatics were better - don’t you think Porsche and Ferrari would be using them? DCT will always be faster but auto will be better when sitting in traffic.
Its pure cost cutting by BMW.
Never said it was better than DCT, what I meant is that it can be efficient as a transmission. If BMW is going the automatic way, is because many people complain about the clunking and sounds the DCT makes when in operation, which triggers this kind of decisions.

DCT may be faster, but many people don't notice it, or never get in position to get this advantage to work.

I love my DCT and I have learned to work around and the S55 attached to it. I'll wait and see what the next M3/4 brings.
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      05-13-2020, 10:23 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by Flamingi View Post
I agree, the M3 would be the wrong car, if it was like you want it to be. But it isn't like you want it to be, it will not have a DCT. People are buying the car not based on what they want the car to be, what the car should have been or what the heritage dictates, but based on what the car is. And this car will have a converter auto and this is why it will be the right car, even for bumper to bumper traffic. The problem is, that nobody will buy the car, except for a very small minority, if the car was how you want it to be: Radical, DCT, track focused, hard suspension setup etc.

BMW is still a company, and the only thing that matters is $$$. They will sell so much more cars if going with a more road focused car than a track focused car. If you want track, you can still buy the M4 GT4, all the things you want and even more. The G80 is a road legal car, 99% of the time it will be on a road and it is not suprising at all, that BMW went with the converter auto. And to be fair, the ZF 8-speed is the best one available today, you're not loosing much compared to last gen DCT while gaining a load of comfort, which is what pretty much everyone outside this forum wants. You have to remember, this forum has a skewed view, of course you will find many more people here that would want to have a DCT, but believe me when I say BMW did listen to their customers and they did what their customers wanted: a converter auto. Probably in breach of my NDA now, but do you know what the #1 complaint was about the M3/M4? It was the transmission.

And if you argue, that M is special, they don't care about money or sales numbers. No that's wrong, why do you think does M have more SUVs than sports cars? Why do you think the X3 is the most sold M car? If you want to understand the decision of a company on why they did something the way they did, I can guarantee you 99% of the time $$$ was the most important factor for that decision.
Again you want a luxury car with a M badge to be a poseur because you don’t really want a Performance car. Thats well and good and unfortunately where all M cars are headed.

By doing this - BMW has watered down M cars and the prestige of that badge.
Basically the loyal enthusiasts that cultivated the M brand now need to suffer so the general public can comfortably sit in traffic and show off their M badge.

The point of M cars was for a small minority of buyers historically. It was only sold during some of the years of the regular models production cycle. Thats why those cars were special and sought after. The X model Ms are definitely not true M cars to me.

Last edited by R N M; 05-13-2020 at 10:28 AM..
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      05-13-2020, 10:32 AM   #278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R N M View Post
Again you want a luxury car with a M badge to be a poseur because you don’t really want a Performance car. Thats well and good and unfortunately where all M cars are headed.
By doing this - BMW has watered down M cars and the prestige of that badge.
Basically the loyal enthusiasts that cultivated the M brand now need to suffer so the general public can comfortably sit in traffic and show off their M badge.
You are 100% correct with your statement. I just wanted to explain why BMW did this. I'm not for or against a DCT, frankly I don't really give a crap about that decision. Personally, I want a fast, but more luxury car and most people, just like me, give more priority to luxury than having a fast car on the track. An M550i would probably be the better choice compared to an M3. And more people in the target group = more sales = more $$$. And that's why BMW put a converter in the G80.

The problem is the word enthusiast. By the definition of it, it's a small group of people. Once upon a time, M did cater for these, but that's long gone, at least since the X5M was introduced.

Last edited by Flamingi; 05-13-2020 at 11:01 AM..
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      05-13-2020, 01:54 PM   #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R N M View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flamingi View Post
I agree, the M3 would be the wrong car, if it was like you want it to be. But it isn't like you want it to be, it will not have a DCT. People are buying the car not based on what they want the car to be, what the car should have been or what the heritage dictates, but based on what the car is. And this car will have a converter auto and this is why it will be the right car, even for bumper to bumper traffic. The problem is, that nobody will buy the car, except for a very small minority, if the car was how you want it to be: Radical, DCT, track focused, hard suspension setup etc.

BMW is still a company, and the only thing that matters is $$$. They will sell so much more cars if going with a more road focused car than a track focused car. If you want track, you can still buy the M4 GT4, all the things you want and even more. The G80 is a road legal car, 99% of the time it will be on a road and it is not suprising at all, that BMW went with the converter auto. And to be fair, the ZF 8-speed is the best one available today, you're not loosing much compared to last gen DCT while gaining a load of comfort, which is what pretty much everyone outside this forum wants. You have to remember, this forum has a skewed view, of course you will find many more people here that would want to have a DCT, but believe me when I say BMW did listen to their customers and they did what their customers wanted: a converter auto. Probably in breach of my NDA now, but do you know what the #1 complaint was about the M3/M4? It was the transmission.

And if you argue, that M is special, they don't care about money or sales numbers. No that's wrong, why do you think does M have more SUVs than sports cars? Why do you think the X3 is the most sold M car? If you want to understand the decision of a company on why they did something the way they did, I can guarantee you 99% of the time $$$ was the most important factor for that decision.
Again you want a luxury car with a M badge to be a poseur because you don’t really want a Performance car. Thats well and good and unfortunately where all M cars are headed.

By doing this - BMW has watered down M cars and the prestige of that badge.
Basically the loyal enthusiasts that cultivated the M brand now need to suffer so the general public can comfortably sit in traffic and show off their M badge.

The point of M cars was for a small minority of buyers historically. It was only sold during some of the years of the regular models production cycle. Thats why those cars were special and sought after. The X model Ms are definitely not true M cars to me.
I understand your point, these days many people don't appreciate what an M car is supposed to be. The F80/82 is a great car, but is more recognized by the power of the S55 than from their handling character.

People want a car that can be fast on a straight line, than fast on the track.
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      05-13-2020, 01:57 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by R N M View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flamingi View Post
I agree, the M3 would be the wrong car, if it was like you want it to be. But it isn't like you want it to be, it will not have a DCT. People are buying the car not based on what they want the car to be, what the car should have been or what the heritage dictates, but based on what the car is. And this car will have a converter auto and this is why it will be the right car, even for bumper to bumper traffic. The problem is, that nobody will buy the car, except for a very small minority, if the car was how you want it to be: Radical, DCT, track focused, hard suspension setup etc.

BMW is still a company, and the only thing that matters is $$$. They will sell so much more cars if going with a more road focused car than a track focused car. If you want track, you can still buy the M4 GT4, all the things you want and even more. The G80 is a road legal car, 99% of the time it will be on a road and it is not suprising at all, that BMW went with the converter auto. And to be fair, the ZF 8-speed is the best one available today, you're not loosing much compared to last gen DCT while gaining a load of comfort, which is what pretty much everyone outside this forum wants. You have to remember, this forum has a skewed view, of course you will find many more people here that would want to have a DCT, but believe me when I say BMW did listen to their customers and they did what their customers wanted: a converter auto. Probably in breach of my NDA now, but do you know what the #1 complaint was about the M3/M4? It was the transmission.

And if you argue, that M is special, they don't care about money or sales numbers. No that's wrong, why do you think does M have more SUVs than sports cars? Why do you think the X3 is the most sold M car? If you want to understand the decision of a company on why they did something the way they did, I can guarantee you 99% of the time $$$ was the most important factor for that decision.
Again you want a luxury car with a M badge to be a poseur because you don't really want a Performance car. Thats well and good and unfortunately where all M cars are headed.

By doing this - BMW has watered down M cars and the prestige of that badge.
Basically the loyal enthusiasts that cultivated the M brand now need to suffer so the general public can comfortably sit in traffic and show off their M badge.

The point of M cars was for a small minority of buyers historically. It was only sold during some of the years of the regular models production cycle. Thats why those cars were special and sought after. The X model Ms are definitely not true M cars to me.
I understand your point, these days many people don't appreciate what an M car is supposed to be. The F80/82 is a great car, but is more recognized by the power of the S55 than from their handling character.

People want a car that can be fast on a straight line, than fast on the track.
Horsepower wars are taking over
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      05-13-2020, 03:03 PM   #281
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Originally Posted by AlejoEvo View Post
People want a car that can be fast on a straight line, than fast on the track.
...and that can be driven with zero skill requirement.
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      05-13-2020, 04:53 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by pbar View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlejoEvo View Post
People want a car that can be fast on a straight line, than fast on the track.
...and that can be driven with zero skill requirement.
I forgot that!!

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      05-14-2020, 08:01 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by R N M View Post
If automatics were better - don’t you think Porsche and Ferrari would be using them? DCT will always be faster but auto will be better when sitting in traffic.
Its pure cost cutting by BMW.
If DCT was better, would Koenigsegg use an automatic?
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      05-28-2020, 12:54 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by mhjeep View Post
Here is my biggest concern. I am sure dynamically, the car will be better than the F8x platform. However, the design and looks may sink it. I remember when the F3x came out, people were fairly critical of the front headlights and grill. However, when the F8x was released, it was generally accepted with universal praise. I am not getting that feeling with the G8x. I hope I am wrong....for bmws sake.
They could put the hardest riding suspension possible and the most uncomfortable CFRP seats in G8x but it will still feel like a beefed up 3 series with that ZF8, less like an M3.
ZF8 doesn't match the character of rest of the car.

I don't know what BMW is trying to achieve by reducing character from the car other than cost cutting. It's going to be a nice BMW, but it's not M3.
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      05-28-2020, 01:46 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
They could put the hardest riding suspension possible and the most uncomfortable CFRP seats in G8x but it will still feel like a beefed up 3 series with that ZF8, less like an M3.
ZF8 doesn't match the character of rest of the car.

I don't know what BMW is trying to achieve by reducing character from the car other than cost cutting. It's going to be a nice BMW, but it's not M3.
I have no problem with the ZF box. It works great in the M5.
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      05-28-2020, 02:10 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by BurnleyBimmer View Post
I have no problem with the ZF box. It works great in the M5.
I've got it on my X3M and it's ok. I lacks the drama and fun of the DTC - it's just too German and 'efficient'. It's quick to change gear but there is no joker, noise or drama in the fastest change mode.

Don't get too excited.

The engine on the other hand with a stage 1 is epic.
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