[Der_Wolf]

Originally Posted by e90335e36m3

Right? I thought I saw this, along with 450 other G80 related reviews on the FRONT page of this forum. I think it gives both supporters and detractors equal right to provide their opinion on every element of a vehicle being presented. Sorry if my opinion that it is the ugliest BMW in modern history, other than it's 3-4 series cousin hurts your feelings. I'm still going to state my opinion. The sensitive millennial cancel culture has pervaded this forum, how sad.

It's not that. Trust me, no one is upset about your opinion. It's just not necessary to go into the g8x forums and constantly say how ugly it is on every photo. It would be asinine if we went into the f80 forums and talked about its lesser power or something. It's not really needed or constructive. As well, because aesthetics are subjective and there is no correct answer, it never ends. At the same time, I do agree with you that at the end of the day you can give your opinion on whatever you want.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Der_Wolf

It's not that. Trust me, no one is upset about your opinion. It's just not necessary to go into the g8x forums and constantly say how ugly it is on every photo. It would be asinine if we went into the f80 forums and talked about its lesser power or something. It's not really needed or constructive. As well, because aesthetics are subjective and there is no correct answer, it never ends. At the same time, I do agree with you that at the end of the day you can give your opinion on whatever you want.

…and I would wager that is how the moderators see it, which is why they clean up the threads or remove members.

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by Der_Wolf

It's not that. Trust me, no one is upset about your opinion. It's just not necessary to go into the g8x forums and constantly say how ugly it is on every photo. It would be asinine if we went into the f80 forums and talked about its lesser power or something. It's not really needed or constructive. As well, because aesthetics are subjective and there is no correct answer, it never ends. At the same time, I do agree with you that at the end of the day you can give your opinion on whatever you want.

As he stated, members provide an input or an opinion just because it is in the FRONT page. Otherwise many of us don't go there.

[KoenG]

It's a glorious car and proofs now to be even much better than I initially thought, when I saw the early specs: weight, transmission and lack of low down torque. But all of this seems secondary when you see how well sorted out this machine actually is.

On the other hand, I still can't comprehend the Dukec and Vanhooydonck arrogance in deliberately opting for a polarizing design. Certainly when they state things like: "only 20% endorses it, but that's ok" and "when you don't like it, you're conservative and change averted".

When there is one party to blame for the frustrating discussions we keep on having here, it's BMW. And apparently they aimed for that.

[02M3ForMe]

Originally Posted by KoenG

It's a glorious car and proofs now to be even much better than I initially thought, when I saw the early specs: weight, transmission and lack of low down torque. But all of this seems secondary when you see how well sorted out this machine actually is.

On the other hand, I still can't comprehend the Dukec and Vanhooydonck arrogance in deliberately opting for a polarizing design. Certainly when they state things like: "only 20% endorses it, but that's ok" and "when you don't like it, you're conservative and change averted".

When there is one party to blame for the frustrating discussions we keep on having here, it's BMW. And apparently they aimed for that.

While I’m quite happy with my car, I think DD lacks sufficient respect for the existing customer base and classic BMW design in general. To hang a polarizing design on what is probably the best driving M3 ever is not fair to the fans (paying or otherwise), and I say that as someone who loves the look.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by 02M3ForMe

While I'm quite happy with my car, I think DD lacks sufficient respect for the existing customer base and classic BMW design in general. To hang a polarizing design on what is probably the best driving M3 ever is not fair to the fans (paying or otherwise), and I say that as someone who loves the look.

I get it, but there's the other side of the coin……..those who longed for significant deviation between models; individualized character. I remember back in the late 90's, early 2000's, BMW was lambasted for their "same sausage, different length" approach to design. As time passed, buyers wanted more and more individualization between models. Here we are today with a 4/i4/M3/M4 that polarizes. Some feel slighted while others welcome(d) the change; the uniqueness. We, as "enthusiast" forum dwellers, are a loud, vocal minority (..much like the vocal Instagram bunch). We always have been and we always will be.

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

I get it, but there's the other side of the coin……..those who longed for significant deviation between models; individualized character. I remember back in the late 90's, early 2000's, BMW was lambasted for their "same sausage, different length" approach to design. As time passed, buyers wanted more and more individualization between models. Here we are today with a 4/i4/M3/M4 that polarizes. Some feel slighted while others welcome(d) the change; the uniqueness. We, as "enthusiast" forum dwellers, are a loud, vocal minority (..much like the vocal Instagram bunch). We always have been and we always will be.

I agree and nobody argues with that. Unique however doesn't mean taking the same doors and implement them on a body that has wider rear while they look like crap. I mean, they had the chance to do it unique, yet, that resumes to a different grill and headlamps?
So, you see, unique was made from a statement point of view by cutting corners not by really putting the effort. Imagine this car with special doors that will blend with that rear hip...

let's take the hood line for example: it is a scar on the face of the vehicle. Some, still believe the Bullshit that is a "pedestrian thing" because that's what they are told. Yet, that is not true; it is about some costs and time in manufacturing process. All the other cars are subject to the same rules, yet they stick with their design.
Right in the same class, same brand, the new M340 manages to come with nice grills, nice headlamps and guess what? Without a scar on the face. Hence, that's why I bought it.

Unique can be nice and beautiful not that polarizing. Because polarizing means a lot will not like it, and this forum proves it.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Teutonic

I agree and nobody argues with that. Unique however doesn't mean taking the same doors and implement them on a body that has wider rear while they look like crap. I mean, they had the chance to do it unique, yet, that resumes to a different grill and headlamps?
So, you see, unique was made from a statement point of view by cutting corners not by really putting the effort. Imagine this car with special doors that will blend with that rear hip...

let's take the hood line for example: it is a scar on the face of the vehicle. Some, still believe the Bullshit that is a "pedestrian thing" because that's what they are told. Yet, that is not true; it is about some costs and time in manufacturing process. All the other cars are subject to the same rules, yet they stick with their design.
Right in the same class, same brand, the new M340 manages to come with nice grills, nice headlamps and guess what? Without a scar on the face. Hence, that's why I bought it.

Unique can be nice and beautiful not that polarizing. Because polarizing means a lot will not like it, and this forum proves it.

That's all well and good, but we have to eventually make peace with the fact that what we deem to be "proper" design evolution differs from what a team of designers felt was needed to keep the company relevant in the market.

I personally think the M340 is boring and uninspiring. I've felt that way ever since it debuted. It did nothing to move the company forward IMHO (…granted, an opinion is all it is). There is nothing about the M340's aesthetics that would make me want to jettison a F3X…..again, IMHO. It's a nice looking car, but it's safe…..sterile. I feel the same way about the front of the 8. The 5's and the new 7 are much more interesting. They have more character, especially in the right spec. The new G8X's are bold and they turn heads. They don't look like anything else on the road (…which is either good or bad depending on how one feels about the car).

[02M3ForMe]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

I get it, but there's the other side of the coin……..those who longed for significant deviation between models; individualized character. I remember back in the late 90's, early 2000's, BMW was lambasted for their "same sausage, different length" approach to design. As time passed, buyers wanted more and more individualization between models. Here we are today with a 4/i4/M3/M4 that polarizes. Some feel slighted while others welcome(d) the change; the uniqueness. We, as "enthusiast" forum dwellers, are a loud, vocal minority (..much like the vocal Instagram bunch). We always have been and we always will be.

Certainly the minority, based on how the general public has responded to it so far. I'm not surprised; I doubt BMW would make the miscalculation some think they made. It's difficult to freshen up "stale" design without alienating a portion of your existing clients. If BMW's goal is to acquire new customers, mission accomplished (especially with the addition of xDrive).

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by 02M3ForMe

Certainly the minority, based on how the general public has responded to it so far. I'm not surprised; I doubt BMW would make the miscalculation some think they made. It's difficult to freshen up "stale" design without alienating a portion of your existing clients. If BMW's goal is to acquire new customers, mission accomplished (especially with the addition of xDrive).

Agreed! A company like BMW has to weigh the risks: continue to build something completely for older customers and risk losing future investment or build something that will alienate some older clients/customers (…which happens all of the time regardless), but bring in fresh buyers who will help substantiate the company and keep it solvent longer (…while still appealing to some of the older clientele who adapt to change a bit better). Look how many came to BMW once they went turbo, for example?!? Purists moaned, but the E9X/F3X/F8X sold and sold and sold.

[Paystyle]

I'd def choose the Alfa in this bunch. Having driven a few of these Alfas, I can say they're one of the most fun cars I've ever driven. I felt like a child with a toy. Unfortunately they do lack severely in the interior luxury/amenities department, as the article notes.

The Audi, well, it's fine. Interiors are rad, and I wouldn't be the least upset if I had one as my daily.

AMGs are great overall but the C63 is a little lacking in soul, and just feels like a branding exercise for money more than a uniquely designated racing machine. Also, I've never been able to take the C class seriously.

Regardless of the M's performance, I can't even stand to look at it. And I prefer not to drive a car that looks like a beaver. But to each their own.

If the rankings were up to me:
1. Alfa
2. Audi
3. AMG
4. M3

Please spare me with the "then why are you here" comments. I own an M5 that I love and doesn't look like a Pacific Northwest animal.

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Agreed! A company like BMW has to weigh the risks: continue to build something completely for older customers and risk losing future investment or build something that will alienate some older clients/customers (…which happens all of the time regardless), but bring in fresh buyers who will help substantiate the company and keep it solvent longer (…while still appealing to some of the older clientele who adapt to change a bit better). Look how many came to BMW once they went turbo, for example?!? Purists moaned, but the E9X/F3X/F8X sold and sold and sold.

Hmmmm, you make it come across like a smart move from BMW. While I still believe they should get rid of Dukec and Vanhooydonck.
Their contempt and arrogance for the 80% is just perplexing. When you want new and differentiating design, it's certainly not required to provoke controversy like they did.

[TrentMeister]

Originally Posted by Paystyle

I'd def choose the Alfa in this bunch. Having driven a few of these Alfas, I can say they're one of the most fun cars I've ever driven. I felt like a child with a toy. Unfortunately they do lack severely in the interior luxury/amenities department, as the article notes.

The Audi, well, it's fine. Interiors are rad, and I wouldn't be the least upset if I had one as my daily.

AMGs are great overall but the C63 is a little lacking in soul, and just feels like a branding exercise for money more than a uniquely designated racing machine. Also, I've never been able to take the C class seriously.

Regardless of the M's performance, I can't even stand to look at it. And I prefer not to drive a car that looks like a beaver. But to each their own.

If the rankings were up to me:
1. Alfa
2. Audi
3. AMG
4. M3

Please spare me with the "then why are you here" comments. I own an M5 that I love and doesn't look like a Pacific Northwest animal.

New m3 drags all those cars. You like being slow?

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by KoenG

Hmmmm, you make it come across like a smart move from BMW. While I still believe they should get rid of Dukec and Vanhooydonck.
Their contempt and arrogance for the 80% is just perplexing. When you want new and differentiating design, it's certainly not required to provoke controversy like they did.

Again, it depends on your perspective. I try to look at it from a world perspective rather than just a diehard enthusiast perspective.

Was it a smart move from BMW? Only time will tell, but despite the internet chagrin, the cars are selling……so somebody knew what they were doing. Amid all of this internet controversy, the G8X's are selling very well. BMW knows they have this corner of the market more or less in their pocket, especially bringing the only MT luxury performance sedan/coupe to the market (…Cadillac as well, but they've never managed to gain much market share with the CTS-V despite its pedigree).

I think what is considered arrogance on BMW's part is probably just confidence. Confidence in their product to say, "Hey! We know this design direction isn't for everybody and it's impossible to please every buyer/potential buyer out there. If you don't like it, cool, buy something else. People who may not care for the grille design, but who value its performance for the money AND who may adapt to the grille with time may find this car desirable. We've done enough market research to feel this is the right direction for the company to take us into the next decade……and then some. We've been here plenty of times and weathered the storm……a storm that resulted in a lot of profit. We'll weather this one too and likely be saying, 'I told ya so!' once again."

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Agreed! A company like BMW has to weigh the risks: continue to build something completely for older customers and risk losing future investment or build something that will alienate some older clients/customers (…which happens all of the time regardless), but bring in fresh buyers who will help substantiate the company and keep it solvent longer (…while still appealing to some of the older clientele who adapt to change a bit better). Look how many came to BMW once they went turbo, for example?!? Purists moaned, but the E9X/F3X/F8X sold and sold and sold.

I believe that BMW fans are a "to the core" bunch and they still hope and try to accept the new product. Many forcefully induce a "it will grow on me" sentiment just because they are long time fans. But that's not okay. As a designer, if i would read that I will accept in my inner soul that I have failed. BMW engineering succeeded. Design failed.
A continuous slap in the face will eventually push them out. You know, like in a relationship. You can try to make it work but "it takes two to Tango".

I have seen however many that left the boat. No joke.
All I learn is that repeat business is the core of any business. New customers are good, but losing old because you believe that new ones will rule, its wrong. The new ones don't have the same loyalty. Plus, many new ones are coming to the brand due to newer less expensive vehicles.

In regards with the Turbo, people came to BMW because of other things. Turbo was the solution for 2000cmc tax bracket in Europe not because of the technology. Everybody did the same so BMW fans accepted the reality. But that was an outside the brand decision.

I am not happy about the new mild hybrid technology either with a second battery. Maybe I will not keep the car because of that. Don't know yet.

But I am looking to buy a 80's Mercedes and settle because all new shit is too much for me and electric is out of my acceptance.

[02M3ForMe]

Originally Posted by Paystyle

I'd def choose the Alfa in this bunch. Having driven a few of these Alfas, I can say they're one of the most fun cars I've ever driven. I felt like a child with a toy. Unfortunately they do lack severely in the interior luxury/amenities department, as the article notes.

The Audi, well, it's fine. Interiors are rad, and I wouldn't be the least upset if I had one as my daily.

AMGs are great overall but the C63 is a little lacking in soul, and just feels like a branding exercise for money more than a uniquely designated racing machine. Also, I've never been able to take the C class seriously.

Regardless of the M's performance, I can't even stand to look at it. And I prefer not to drive a car that looks like a beaver. But to each their own.

If the rankings were up to me:
1. Alfa
2. Audi
3. AMG
4. M3

Please spare me with the "then why are you here" comments. I own an M5 that I love and doesn't look like a Pacific Northwest animal.

Asking seriously - why are you here if, by your own admission, you "can't even stand to look at it" and disqualified it regardless of its merits as a performance car?

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Teutonic

I believe that BMW fans are a "to the core" bunch and they still hope and try to accept the new product. Many forcefully induce a "it will grow on me" sentiment just because they are long time fans. But that's not okay. As a designer, if i would read that I will accept in my inner soul that I have failed.
A continuous slap in the face will eventually push them out. You know, like in a relationship. You can try to make it work but "it takes two to Tango".

I have seen however many that left the boat. No joke.
All I learn is that repeat business is the core of any business. New customers are good, but losing old because you believe that new ones will rule, its wrong. The new ones don't have the same loyalty. Plus, many new ones are coming to the brand due to newer less expensive vehicles.

In regards with the Turbo, people came to BMW because of other things. Turbo was the solution for 2000cmc tax bracket in Europe not because of the technology. everybody dis the same so BMW fans accepted the reality. But that was an outside the brand decision.

I am not happy about the new mild hybrid technology either with a second battery. maybe I will not keep the car because of that. Don't know yet.

But I am looking to buy a 80's Mercedes and settle because all new shit is too much for me and electric is out of my acceptance.

While many bite the bullet and buy despite not liking the grille, many buy because they do like the grille (..and were bored with the prior platform). It's hard to really quantify what percentages fall into either category. The new design also attracts buyers who might've never considered BMW, just like the many FI lovers who came to BMW back in '07 simply for the FI powerplant in the 335i and stayed.

Your business concept has merit, but I think design adds in a much needed caveat. Older buyers are dependable to a point, but older buyers eventually stop buying. You need new people to become interested in a brand to keep it solvent. You can't rely on old business forever. Sometimes it's that design tweak that makes the magic happen. For example, I didn't become interested in BMW until the E36 M3. The beloved E30 does/did nothing for me, but it's loved by the even older crowd. It just wasn't enough to spark my interest. I could care less about old Porsche's (..the RUF 993 excluded), but the 997 really was the car that started my love affair and I feel like the 992 is the sweetest Porsche ever.

Like you, I have zero interest in EV's…..at least as a sole car; I would be open to a hybrid though. That said, I will always want a manual transmission ICE sport car of some sort. My 992 may be the last car I ever buy (…unless a new GT3 miraculously falls into my lap).

[MoeMuc]

It's just incredible and a bit sad that there are some people here that refuse to accept there are different tastes.

If you think that no one likes it (or should) than keep calm and lean back, the market economy should confirm your opinion. And if not, than you were probably wrong. However, it doesn't matter, because it won't change your mind if you think it is ugly, and again, it's fine, it also won't change the mind of someone who actually likes it, it's a completely pointless discussion and a waste of time cause everything has already been said (by everyone….twice…a day…)…

I'll start a petition to cover the Frontend on every review, maybe with a picture of an e46 compact printed on the cover.

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by MoeMuc

It's just incredible and a bit sad that there are some people here that refuse to accept there are different tastes.

Agree! Goes both ways though!

[MoeMuc]

Originally Posted by Teutonic

Agree! Goes both ways though!

Then please accept that I (and many others here) like it. I like the frontend, I like the rear fenders and I am happy with the performance figuers. I liked it from the beginning so there is no need for it to grow on me. Espacially now as I got the F90 (Nice performance, but a bit too big and a bit to disconnected) I am really thinking about switching to the G80 or wait for the G81 ( ).

And: Its perfectly fine for me that you find it ugly, you made it very clear that you don't like the car.

BTT:
They talk pretty positive about the steering in the review. Does anyone now how many selectable modes there are? In the F90 I only have Comfort and Sport. I would love Comfort to be even easier at city driving and a setting obove Sport that is a bit harder.

Also regarding the ZF vs DCT:
I loved the Up- and Downshifts of the M4 Comp. but it was also annoying to daily drive it around town (parking was the worst!). I think the ZF is fine for a BMW, as I think no BMW is a real racecar. It makes more sense imo to add someting like a Cayman gt4 -it has a DCT and it is far better than any BMW DCT could ever be.

[M2Cmtl]

Originally Posted by PLF69

They will be hot cakes here in Canada too once the AWD comes. My local dealer (small city) already sold 3 + mine. Inventory is getting lower everyday now that people are test driving them.

Yeah, lots of people are waiting for the AWD model up here. Makes sense. Should just be RWD/6MT and AWD/Auto if you ask me. What's werid is that M2C prices have gone up. There are very few for sale and the prices are nuts.

Also, there is a new tax on 100k+ cars here for 2022 so expect many to take delivery before January... an AWD M3C will be 110-120k + taxes with a few options.

[2011ninja]

Originally Posted by M2Cmtl

Yeah, lots of people are waiting for the AWD model up here. Makes sense. Should just be RWD/6MT and AWD/Auto if you ask me. What's werid is that M2C prices have gone up. There are very few for sale and the prices are nuts.

Also, there is a new tax on 100k+ cars here for 2022 so expect many to take delivery before January... an AWD M3C will be 110-120k + taxes with a few options.

Yikes!!!!!

My ceiling is $75k

Looks like CPO G80 will be $80,000

I'll need a high mileage G80X