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      05-01-2021, 10:44 PM   #23
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E series M3 did not have low end torque.
F series had terrible torque curve (or too much low end torque) and vague steering.
Then G series seems have addressed most of the issues, but screwed up the transmission now.
What's next? Maybe screw up the whole car.

I have a feeling the DTC will come back in the LCI version, or added as an upgrade option (or maybe a M performance option).

I can't believe people comparing the M3C to a M2C. The M2C is small and nimble, and the absence of DTC alone in the new M3C is enough to keep us from switching.
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      05-02-2021, 12:53 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buckybadger View Post
E series M3 did not have low end torque.
F series had terrible torque curve (or too much low end torque) and vague steering.
Then G series seems have addressed most of the issues, but screwed up the transmission now.
What's next? Maybe screw up the whole car.

I have a feeling the DTC will come back in the LCI version, or added as an upgrade option (or maybe a M performance option).

I can't believe people comparing the M3C to a M2C. The M2C is small and nimble, and the absence of DTC alone in the new M3C is enough to keep us from switching.
DCT is not coming back. They are not going to lose enough sales with the DCT to even cause a blip. They will attract way more buyers with the smoother day to day driving unfortunately. The M3 has become about volume and profitability instead of pure driving experience. Time change and nothing we can do about it.
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      05-02-2021, 01:51 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///AVM View Post
In fairness, I need more seat time before drawing any firm conclusions on not only the S58/ZF8, but the entire driving/performance experience offered by the G80 M3C.

I must say, BMW engineers know how to engineer cars, and the M3C is engineered wonderfully. However, I am not sure the M3C will live up to my performance expectations of an ///M icon?

I am sitting on top of the fence currently and do not know which direction more seat time will take me? If pressured to draw conclusion at this very moment, I would lean toward stating the M3C has deviated too far from being a driver's car for my liking, and more into the cruiser realm. . . and it will take a small miracle for me to embrace the ZF8.

To try and summarize things down to a few bullet points:

- S58 delivers power. Moves M3C chassis quick and fast.
- S58 sounds fantastic wrung-out, as well as in terms of exhaust note.
- ZF8 has too many gears and shifts are extremely disappointing at top of rev band.
- M3C chassis is too big/heavy and has nowhere to hide.

///AVM

P.S. A couple of my favorite pics
It was a pleasure reading this. I hope the zf8 can be tweaked via software update or the aftermarket, must be tough for those used to DCT/PDK. Is there no break-in period with N58? I recall not hitting rev limiter until after the 1200 mile service in my e92. Thoughts on g82 tech packages vs f87?
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      05-02-2021, 08:17 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LBbluem2 View Post
Damn man, you've kind of burst my bubble a bit with talk of how bad the shifts are over 5.5k

I guess for me it remains to be seen for me.
LB

As with Barry, my impressions were not intended to burst your bubble . . . . I am just ONE enthusiast trying to be honest in his assessment of the M3C.

No doubt, there are objective measures that compare DCT to ZF8, like 0-60 times between the F80 and G80. That stated, my impressions are far more subjective than objective . . . how I experience and interact with the vehicle compared to previous experiences.

Your experiences and expectations could be quite different, and far more favorable toward the ZF8?

To be clear, the ZF8 is most disappointing high in the rev range, but soft, slow and disappointing throughout the rev range . . . to ME.

With further seat time, I may simply get used to the ZF8 and learn to enjoy it more than I currently do coming off extensive PDK/DCT experiences . . . I will give it the seat time it deserves.

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      05-02-2021, 08:35 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnBucurE92 View Post
I wonder how much suspension technology can improve over time or if we are at the peak of it's innovation. It is said you can't hide weight, but after driving both an RS5 and an M3 (f80) it was apparent the BMW does a better job of controlling it. I know what you mean when you say it still feels like it's there -compared to the M2C. Just makes me wonder if there will ever be a workaround for the physics.
Thank you John

I agree . . . mass can be better supported with improved suspension; mass can be moved quicker and faster with increased power; but mass is hard to hide when it comes to handling.

BMW did a wonderful job engineering the G80 and I suspect the majority of consumers will find the G80 an exceptional driving experience.

That stated, most on this forum are driving enthusiasts whose focus resides with performance we have come to expect from the ///M line.

Best

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      05-02-2021, 09:00 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PLF69 View Post
I will be honest, I am not surprised at all by your review.

I have been following most of your threads/post from the time you were still driving your 718 GTS, I was surprised you got a M3C, I figure you ordered one without test driving one. Wich is totally normal.

I almost did the same but reasoned myself to test drive before, maybe because I had past experience with the ZF8 in a M235i, I knew a bit more what to expect and I confirmed my thaughts while test driving a M4C. I ordered a 6mt.

Anyways, I think you may need to change a bit your expectations, it's a bigger car equipped with a much more civilized transmission, anyone can use it easily, DCT not so much.. As much as many deplore BMW letting the DCT go, we need to live with it now and it's back to 6mt or slushbox. I also hated the 8zf on track because too many gears.

I hope your journey with M3C turns out to be satisfying as time goes on.

Happy Driving
PLF

Thank you for your - as always - insightful feedback

Yes, getting out of the blocks first did not come with the luxury of a test drive . . . still, honestly, I find it extremely difficult to develop a proper opinion about a vehicle after driving around the block a few times during a test drive.

Even after 600 miles of seat time, I realize I have not yet 'meshed' with the G80 . . . no doubt variable between drivers, but I generally do not land on firm opinion until a couple thousand miles of seat time. Not only me familiarizing myself with the vehicle, but the vehicle itself coming into its own.

As per above posts, the G80 is wonderfully engineered and many will enjoy the hell out of it . . . SO FAR, and for reasons stated, simply not the performance I expected from an ///M car icon.

If my views change over time it likely will not be related to any improvements on the part of the car itself, rather, my learning to accept and enjoy what the car has to offer . . . as opposed to focusing on what expectations were not met out of the gate.

I DOUBT I will make a return to the MT lifestyle. . . and realize DCT is not returning to BMW lineup. The best I could hope for - and is quite likely given the pace of technology - is that significant improvements are forthcoming with the ZF8.

Best

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      05-02-2021, 09:16 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Maboomba View Post
///AVM, have you tested a M3 with the 6MT? I wonder if you expressed your displeasure with the ZF8 whether your dealer would let you take a 6MT for a proper hour-long test drive and get a sense for how it compares.

I have recently test driven a number of the vehicles in comparison here - a M2C DCT, M2C 6MT, F80 M3C 6MT, F82 M4 CS DCT, G80 M3 6MT and G82 M4C 8AT. (I also daily a G05 X5 50i with the ZF8 so I know it well.) The DCT was an occasion. The ZF8 is an incredible automatic but it isn't a DCT. It is more refined, which has pro and con. If "raw" equals "soul" then you will find the ZF8 has lost some soul, even if it has not actually lost any measurable performance. Regardless, because I have a ZF8 in my SUV, I will be buying a 6MT in my sporty car on principle.
Thank you Mr. M

MT is a very individual topic . . . I have previously mentioned my past passion for the MT, as well as the basis of my conversion to PDK/DCT.

This is very subjective, but a vehicle's chassis plays SIGNIFICANTLY into my enjoyment of a MT. I am positive many disagree, but even the M2C was too 'big' a vehicle for me to enjoy a MT . . . so considering a MT in the G80 is an absolute no-go.

Chassis size/weight are important, but not the only factors. For example, engine mount, suspension, etc are also important considerations. Overall, this is why Porsche sport cars are among the few I would consider going back to MT. Still, PDK is so exceptional that I remain partial to it over MT.

What has become clear to me in short-order is that the ZF8 is not comparable to DCT. DCT is a MT without a manual clutch. ZF8 is, well, an automatic transmission that lacks the 'punch' or, as you suggest, 'soul' of the DCT/MT.

Per my above post to PLF, I have little doubt BMW engineers are capable of giving the ZF8 some punch/soul that is currently lacking in the G80 . . . time will tell if such will ever be their intention?

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      05-02-2021, 09:20 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave12285 View Post
I'm very thankful for this review coming from someone using the ZF8 in manual mode. Not super interested about silky smooth shifts around town at low speeds but very interested in how the transmission performs when driving quickly. Sounds like a manual is the way to go for me too. I'm surprised there aren't more complaints about high rpm shifts but I also suppose there are a lot of folks still breaking in their cars. Either way, thanks again.
My pleasure Dave . . . enjoy your G80/82!

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      05-02-2021, 09:26 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Salespunk View Post
DCT is not coming back. They are not going to lose enough sales with the DCT to even cause a blip. They will attract way more buyers with the smoother day to day driving unfortunately. The M3 has become about volume and profitability instead of pure driving experience. Time change and nothing we can do about it.
Salespunk

Spot on . . . it is all about appealing to the masses, not the enthusiasts that live on Bimmerpost.

From that perspective, the G80 is arguably one of the best cruisers on the road today. Perhaps even still one of the best sporty sedans on the road. . . thus far in my experience, however, not what I expected from an icon in the ///M car lineup.

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      05-02-2021, 09:44 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peertwelve View Post
It was a pleasure reading this. I hope the zf8 can be tweaked via software update or the aftermarket, must be tough for those used to DCT/PDK. Is there no break-in period with N58? I recall not hitting rev limiter until after the 1200 mile service in my e92. Thoughts on g82 tech packages vs f87?
Thank you Peer. Appreciate your feedback.

I assume you meant S58, not N58 . . . but, to answer your question, yes, a 'break-in' period of 1200 miles is recommended.

Certainly not going to try and argue the point with anyone, but I am of the opinion a car needs to be 'driven-in,' not 'broken-in.'

I believe you are suggesting that BMW somehow limits the capability of its new ///M cars until the break-in service? Certainly with the F8x, all that occurred was some fluid changes, and I fully anticipate the same to be true of the G8x break-in service.

Best

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      05-02-2021, 10:07 AM   #33
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The transmission can be tuned to be quicker and more direct. BMW will continually massage it over time. Aftermarket tuners will do the same. No need to hit the hate button yet.
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      05-02-2021, 10:22 AM   #34
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There are options for ZF8 tranny tuning, I have the XHP tune on my M235i and it dramatically alters shift speed and feel. Something to consider if you are not happy with the shifting.
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      05-02-2021, 10:35 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmo 335i View Post
The transmission can be tuned to be quicker and more direct. BMW will continually massage it over time. Aftermarket tuners will do the same. No need to hit the hate button yet.
Gizmo

Very true!

BMW has every ability to fine tune and advance the technology . . . but you only get one chance to make a first impression.

I think they could have done a LOT better . . . on a few fronts.

Regardless, I SUSPECT that, with time, I will grow more accustomed and accepting of what the G80 offers . . . and less aware of prior experiences and expectations accordingly.

Not ready to kick BMW to curb just yet.

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      05-02-2021, 10:40 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murf View Post
There are options for ZF8 tranny tuning, I have the XHP tune on my M235i and it dramatically alters shift speed and feel. Something to consider if you are not happy with the shifting.
Thank you Murf

Not ready to go after third party solutions for a new G80 that should have come out with the transmission dialed in far more than its current form . . . in other words, perhaps BMW will offer an update of their own in the near future???

Not sure a computer can address the fact that the ZF8 has one too many gears, but the soft and slow shifts, as well as the problem I described with shifts in the upper rev band should be easily addressed if BMW desires. . . I would think?

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      05-02-2021, 11:29 AM   #37
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G80 M3C ZF8 Automatic Mode

Aside from long highway drives, it is not a common occasion that I explore PDK/DCT or ZF8 automatic modes. In terms of highway ‘cruising,’ all three are perfectly adequate. The following remains in respect to SPIRITED driving.

PDK automatic mode is (nearly) as impressive as manual mode. By ‘impressive’ I mean to state the computer is quite telepathic with up and downshifts according to Normal, Sport and Sport Plus mode selected. . . still, I prefer manual mode because I have my own 'computer settings' in my head, as well as the enjoyment I receive from engaging the shifter.

DCT automatic mode with the M2C is adequate if you are out on open (rural) roads and able to constantly open up the throttle as you pass through the straights and twisties. However, within the speed limits of spirited daily driving, automatic mode constantly gets ‘hung up’ when it is time to decide between taking the foot off the throttle and jail time.

Today I was out on both local and rural roads. Decided to engage the ZF8 automatic mode per settings noted in post #3. Of course, I swapped S3 for D3 . . . and used Sport for M1 and Sport Plus for M2 with regard to engine modes.

What I concluded after some 75-100 miles of driving is that ZF8 automatic mode is far superior to DCT automatic mode in terms of shift points, both up and down. Shift points varied as would be expected for Sport and Sport Plus modes, e.g., Sport being more aggressive than Comfort and Sport Plus more aggressive than Sport. 8 gears are still one too many for my liking, as shifts are way too short, particularly in lower gears.

Is ZF8 automatic mode better than PDK automatic mode. No, nothing is better than PDK, period. Nonetheless, ZF8 automatic mode is something I might have to explore further given my displeasure with manual mode at this point???

Maybe the S58 and G80 chassis were designed to work better with ZF8 automatic mode, or vice versa?

Maybe I have to accept the fact that the G80 is now more of a high performing cruiser than what we have come to expect from an ///M car?

Whatever the case, I am going to keep pushing the G80 every which way I know and see where things land in the final polling. Not living up to expectations of an ///M car does not mean I cannot grow to appreciate and enjoy what it does have to offer. . . more than what is currently felt to represent shortcomings.

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      05-02-2021, 11:43 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///AVM View Post
In fairness, I need more seat time before drawing any firm conclusions on not only the S58/ZF8, but the entire driving/performance experience offered by the G80 M3C.

I must say, BMW engineers know how to engineer cars, and the M3C is engineered wonderfully. However, I am not sure the M3C will live up to my performance expectations of an ///M icon?

I am sitting on top of the fence currently and do not know which direction more seat time will take me? If pressured to draw conclusion at this very moment, I would lean toward stating the M3C has deviated too far from being a driver’s car for my liking, and more into the cruiser realm. . . and it will take a small miracle for me to embrace the ZF8.

To try and summarize things down to a few bullet points:

- S58 delivers power. Moves M3C chassis quick and fast.
- S58 sounds fantastic wrung-out, as well as in terms of exhaust note.
- ZF8 has too many gears and shifts are extremely disappointing at top of rev band.
- M3C chassis is too big/heavy and has nowhere to hide.

///AVM

P.S. A couple of my favorite pics

Coming from an F82 and having driven the G80 Comp for a few days as a loaner/take home test drive, I agree with what you said about the transmission but disagree on the chassis.

I have a few sections of road closeby that are very technical and I didnt notice any lower speeds in the corners vs the F82. The car didnt understeer or push into any of the corners vs the F82; instead I think I couldve gone a touch faster (not by much) in the G80 if I had more seat time.

I think the weight is there in the G80 but cornering speeds dont show it. The traction from standstill is phenomenal vs the F82. If I have to give up a bit of weight for the traction increase then thats fine by me. At this point, I really dont see the need for Xdrive but I havent tried it in the rain.

Is it possible that what you're experiencing has more to with comparing a long wheelbase car with shorter wheelbase cars? Shorter wheelbase cars could give the feeling of nimbleness without it actually being reflected in the times.
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      05-02-2021, 12:07 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by ryanb06 View Post
. . . Is it possible that what you're experiencing has more to with comparing a long wheelbase car with shorter wheelbase cars? Shorter wheelbase cars could give the feeling of nimbleness without it actually being reflected in the times.
Thank you Ryan

I cannot refute your suggestion in terms of shorter vs longer wheel bases, and impact on handling/'nimbleness.'

That being stated, I am not after reflections in time, and assume you are referencing lap times. I am reflecting upon the feel of the chassis through turns . . . and the G80 feels 'big.'

As per one of my original posts, the G80 might suit the subjectivities of many, if not most. By no means my intent to try and get others to agree with my opinions. However, I believe the size/weight of the G80 chassis might have crossed a performance threshold for ME.

The above stated, I am going to stand my prior statements, including determination to continue to run the G80 through the wringer before drawing any hard lines in the sand. I realize seat time is required and that the car itself needs time to come into its own.

I believe I am pretty open minded and not overly critical, in general, and will try to continue to reflect upon the G80 in such manner over the next few months.

///AVM
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      05-02-2021, 12:16 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///AVM View Post
8 gears are still one too many for my liking, as shifts are way too short, particularly in lower gears.
While I appreciate you say "for your liking" and you recognize the inherent personal preference in this statement, I personally don't see anything magical in 7 gears. It was likely the result of engineering realities at the time it was created. The overall industry trend is towards more gears and faster shifts to make ICEs more efficient. We see 9 speeds coming from Mercedes for future AMG products and 10 speeds here today such as the Ford-GM 10-speed or the Aisin AWR10L65 (used in the Lexus LS 500). I don't know if we'll see Porsche come out with a 9 speed PDK - maybe, maybe not if their development effort starts to pivot with the rest of the industry towards electric vehicles that don't require as many gears.

Taken on its own, the ZF 8HP is in my opinion an engineering masterpiece in its smoothness, shift logic, reliability and versatility. I think it's really remarkable it's used in vehicles as diverse as the Ram 2500 pickup truck to the Rolls Royce Ghost and the entire BMW lineup with only software differences accommodating these applications. Credit to ZF Friedrichshafen, not BMW, for this achievement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ///AVM View Post
Maybe I have to accept the fact that the G80 is now more of a high performing cruiser than what we have come to expect from an ///M car?
Each M car is different which is great because it lets BMW M serve a wide range of enthusiast desires. The M2, M3/M4, M5, M8, X3 M / X4 M, X5 M / X6 M, etc., each offer something distinct around common principles of high performance, strength, power, and passion. The M2 is relatively new but it has been a success and I think BMW will make it the rawest M sports car for people who desire that experience. That creates space for the M3/M4 to be a bit more refined than they have been in the past without sacrificing overall performance.
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      05-02-2021, 03:28 PM   #41
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I think we have similar tastes. I passed on trading up to a DCT m2c from my 2017 m2 because I just don't like the stock state of tune on s55 m2c. I could tune it, but I didn't want to pay that much and destroy the warranty right away, so maybe I'll circle back to the m2c when it gets cheaper and out of warranty. I just like an engine that revs out better than the stock tune on that car.

From what I hear and see the s58 revs out nice in the g80 especially the MT. ZF8 I think is out for me unless I had to make that compromise. That's a lot of money for a car I might not like. I'm leaning heavily toward a MT g87 but I fear bmw will detune it with a similar strategy as they used on the s55 capping power early in the rev range making several rpms of disappointment. I'm sure the g87 CS will be great but more than I want to spend for that car I'm sure. So I'm left hoping the g87 MT engine tune is good, it can be flashed tuned, g80 instead but it's so big and goofy looking.... or tuned DCT m2c when they come down in price.
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      05-02-2021, 03:43 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Maboomba View Post
. . . I personally don't see anything magical in 7 gears. . . creates space for the M3/M4 to be a bit more refined than they have been in the past without sacrificing overall performance.
Thank you Mr. M

There is nothing 'magical' about 7 gears. My comments were that eight gears seems like one too many, as the ZF8 shifts are too short. I suspect if I were coming from PDK/DCT with six gears I would think ZF8 with seven gears is one too many.

However, my comments were not random. For example, there is no shortage of opinion that Porsche MT gearing is too tall. I do not share that opinion because I love climbing the tach, and have no compulsion or need to get past 2nd or 3rd gears during typically spirited driving.

I am certain there is a point when gearing would be too tall for me, just as eight gears with the ZF8 seems too long. Over time, perhaps, I will learn to accept and enjoy the G80 gearing . . . but it is likely going to take some intervention on the part of BMW for me to embrace ZF8 shifting?

As far as the BMW lineup and BMW sacrificing overall performance in favor of refinement with the G80, that does indeed seem to be the case . . . but not the direction I personally want to travel with them.

Again, I am going to give the G80 the fair shake it deserves over the next weeks and months. I have not written this thing off just yet.

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      05-02-2021, 03:49 PM   #43
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///AVM thanks for your comments. Very reasonable sounding thoughts especially based on the short experience I had with the M4C.
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      05-02-2021, 03:57 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akkando View Post
I think we have similar tastes. I passed on trading up to a DCT m2c from my 2017 m2 because I just don't like the stock state of tune on s55 m2c. I could tune it, but I didn't want to pay that much and destroy the warranty right away, so maybe I'll circle back to the m2c when it gets cheaper and out of warranty. I just like an engine that revs out better than the stock tune on that car.

From what I hear and see the s58 revs out nice in the g80 especially the MT. ZF8 I think is out for me unless I had to make that compromise. That's a lot of money for a car I might not like. I'm leaning heavily toward a MT g87 but I fear bmw will detune it with a similar strategy as they used on the s55 capping power early in the rev range making several rpms of disappointment. I'm sure the g87 CS will be great but more than I want to spend for that car I'm sure. So I'm left hoping the g87 MT engine tune is good, it can be flashed tuned, g80 instead but it's so big and goofy looking.... or tuned DCT m2c when they come down in price.
Thank you Akkando!

You seem to really know what you want, as well as corresponding options available to choose from that will suit your needs and desires.

The G87 carries a great deal of promise toward being a sound encore to the F87.

I will let you know where I end up landing on the G80 . . . six months from now it might end up being the best car I have ever owned???

///AVM
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