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      10-01-2020, 08:47 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
...

When your income is half (at most) what it is in the US, then you are taxed ....

Let's break it out in numbers.
In the US let's say you make 200k/year. In Europe let's assume you can find the same job and you're lucky that it pays you ~50%. Let's say 100k/year.
I'm surprised if this 50% assumption is correct. In general, a person with similar qualifications and experience in Europe earns half of what the US person would earn (after exchange rate)?
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      10-01-2020, 09:06 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by bm323 View Post
I'm surprised if this 50% assumption is correct. In general, a person with similar qualifications and experience in Europe earns half of what the US person would earn (after exchange rate)?
Bunching all Europe together is a bit of a stretch. It really depends on the country.
The more civilized ones have higher salaries. The less civilized ones like Spain (where I'm from before anyone gets offended) and the rest of the PIGS it would be less than 50%

Right now the FX is ~1.1 so not really significant.
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      10-01-2020, 10:22 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by The English Guy View Post
In fact the new bonus / malus law will remove this from second hand vehicles. From the 1st January 2021 it's a free for all.
So you let someone take the 40,000 euro hit on first registration then 6 months later you buy without penalty. Crazy
Thanks for the info... indeed totally crazy.
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      10-02-2020, 01:47 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
It's only attainable in a few countries around the world. In most of Europe, if you have an M3 you are a wealthy person.
Yes or you have a very good position with the salary that goes with it which allows you to buy or lease the vehicle, which is still very rare.

I was neither. I worked hard for a many number of years before I was comfortably able to buy my car.

This is very generally speaking but the average wage in France I would say is between 1,500 to 3,500 EUR a month in your pocket depending on your job. My wife is an English Teacher in High School and her salary for the last 3 months hasn't been anymore than 1300 EUR a month to put things into perspective

Housing rent or mortgage around the Paris area would take 1000 EUR away from you straight away. A quick google search shows that a 2 bedroom apartment 69 meters squared total surface in a suburb of Paris in one of the worst areas possible is 1007 EUR a month. That would leave my wife 297 euros a month for the rest - food, transport, fuel, insurance etc.

So you can see that leasing a BMW M3 at 1200 - 1500 EUR a month is only for a special few.

If you have a nice watch, Rolex / Bell & Ross etc, the first question here from someone is not Hey that's a nice watch you've got, it's Hey where did or how did you get that ?

There have been many times I am very uncomfortable driving the M3 due to the looks I receive.
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      10-02-2020, 03:32 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by The English Guy View Post
Yes or you have a very good position with the salary that goes with it which allows you to buy or lease the vehicle, which is still very rare.

I was neither. I worked hard for a many number of years before I was comfortably able to buy my car.

This is very generally speaking but the average wage in France I would say is between 1,500 to 3,500 EUR a month in your pocket depending on your job. My wife is an English Teacher in High School and her salary for the last 3 months hasn't been anymore than 1300 EUR a month to put things into perspective

Housing rent or mortgage around the Paris area would take 1000 EUR away from you straight away. A quick google search shows that a 2 bedroom apartment 69 meters squared total surface in a suburb of Paris in one of the worst areas possible is 1007 EUR a month. That would leave my wife 297 euros a month for the rest - food, transport, fuel, insurance etc.

So you can see that leasing a BMW M3 at 1200 - 1500 EUR a month is only for a special few.

If you have a nice watch, Rolex / Bell & Ross etc, the first question here from someone is not Hey that's a nice watch you've got, it's Hey where did or how did you get that ?

There have been many times I am very uncomfortable driving the M3 due to the looks I receive.
Money aside I don’t know how one can drive in Paris and enjoy. The traffic there is horrendous. The G80/2 M3/4 are also simply too big for the roads in that city and many of the cities in Europe. I get that you can drive to the countryside for a blast on the weekend but these cars are supposed to be used daily...
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      10-02-2020, 06:31 AM   #50
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I've driven mine in and around central Paris and London. I don't agree.
The problem with Paris is that nobody gives a shit and will just drive into you anyway or if parked trash your car as a symbol of wealth.
London has a different atmosphere completely. Respect, politeness and appreciation of a great car. I've had more car conversations with complete strangers in the UK than in France. That's how I see it anyway
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      10-09-2020, 09:24 AM   #51
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Well I understand the new car taxes are a proposal, it doesn't mean it will get aproval from lawmakers. We shall see.

Also the CO2 emissions rules do not encourage sports car to get heavier, you guys have it wrong. It's a fleet wide average. Lighter car = less fuel consumption = less CO2, it averages out with the 2 tonne+ SUVs. It's meant to not penalize companies who build big cars too heavily.

The French have a very awkward relationship with money and wealth despite having more millionaires per capita than most countries in Europe, only Switzerland and Germany afaik have more. Not so in other countries. France is not the whole of Europe, and in reality for its size and wealth it's quite a small market for such cars.

And regarding the freedom argument...

Last edited by emix84; 10-09-2020 at 11:34 AM..
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      10-09-2020, 11:22 AM   #52
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First of all just buy it in another country.... Way cheaper in Belgium, even cheaper in Eastern Europe if u know what you're doing...

Taxes of course...... wait for the i4 or buy a TESLA ....
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      10-09-2020, 11:39 AM   #53
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yeah having the government regulate emissions for the people doesn't work. emissions globally still unchecked and you get a 40k bill to drive a more efficient car!
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      10-09-2020, 11:48 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Saphirschwarz View Post
First of all just buy it in another country.... Way cheaper in Belgium, even cheaper in Eastern Europe if u know what you're doing...

Taxes of course...... wait for the i4 or buy a TESLA ....
Yes that's what bmw international is for. Would never go to a dealer here for any BMW anyway
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      10-09-2020, 12:48 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emix84 View Post

The French have a very awkward relationship with money and wealth despite having more millionaires per capita than most countries in Europe, only Switzerland and Germany afaik have more. Not so in other countries. France is not the whole of Europe, and in reality for its size and wealth it's quite a small market for such cars.

And regarding the freedom argument...
Not sure about that.... they have just less interest in sport/luxury cars than in others countries, probably because local brands have a strong history of popular cars . Looks like they are more into other luxurious things (houses, boats, wines, watches, ...) when they are wealthy. It is a shame because they have so many awesome roads
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      10-10-2020, 06:29 AM   #56
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How do you guys think the new C63 will do with its 2.0L 4 cylinder hybrid? Significantly higher sales in Europe compared to M3?
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      10-10-2020, 06:46 AM   #57
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How do you guys think the new C63 will do with its 2.0L 4 cylinder hybrid? Significantly higher sales in Europe compared to M3?
Very hard question to answer, I think it will be a pretty high risk (just like the G8X design), but it could very well pay off. Rumoured right now is the engine from the A45S + hybrid which makes it 421 + 122 = 543 PS. Until the AMG arrives in 2022 next gen components should be available and they could be closer to 600 than 500 PS.

On top of that the instant torque from the electric motor, this could be a very very serious car looking at the performance specs alone. It will probably depend on the size of the battery (=weight), but keeping in mind the EU regulations which only allow to treat it as a full plugin hybrid in the emmissions tests if it can reach a certain mileage it will not be a small battery (like I would wish, combining best of ICE and electric, like e.g. P1 or LaFerrari).

Unlike the M3 the C63 never was a true drivers car, way too heavy with that V8, so the additional weight probably doesn't really matter. And the G8X isn't that lightweight either anymore...

Personally, I like the hybrids - usually they hide their extra weight under the instant torque, so it basically feels like a "normalweight" car and it still allows you to drive emission free locally. And thanks to government incentives My loaded 745e costs as much as a lously specced 520d... Imagine getting a C63 for the price of a base C200.
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      10-10-2020, 06:53 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flamingi View Post
Very hard question to answer, I think it will be a pretty high risk (just like the G8X design), but it could very well pay off. Rumoured right now is the engine from the A45S + hybrid which makes it 421 + 122 = 543 PS. Until the AMG arrives in 2022 next gen components should be available and they could be closer to 600 than 500 PS.

On top of that the instant torque from the electric motor, this could be a very very serious car looking at the performance specs alone. It will probably depend on the size of the battery (=weight), but keeping in mind the EU regulations which only allow to treat it as a full plugin hybrid in the emmissions tests if it can reach a certain mileage it will not be a small battery (like I would wish, combining best of ICE and electric, like e.g. P1 or LaFerrari).

Unlike the M3 the C63 never was a true drivers car, way too heavy with that V8, so the additional weight probably doesn't really matter. And the G8X isn't that lightweight either anymore...

Personally, I like the hybrids - usually they hide their extra weight under the instant torque, so it basically feels like a "normalweight" car and it still allows you to drive emission free locally. And thanks to government incentives My loaded 745e costs as much as a lously specced 520d... Imagine getting a C63 for the price of a base C200.
I meant more from a cost perspective. Will the new C63 be a significantly cheaper option due to it having a much smaller, 2.0 liter 4 cylinder and thus lower taxation? I would imagine if it is, that's enough to have it sell much more than the M3.
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      10-10-2020, 06:54 AM   #59
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WoW, this thread was pretty eye-opening; I had no idea the tax rate was this costly, in parts of Europe.. I honestly assumed the opposite, being that most are liberal leaning.. 🤷🏻

And I thought I had it bad here in the US at 8%..

I was thinking about becoming an online gospel pastor, just to be exempted paying sales tax, on my next car but seeing how proportionally lower it is to the ROW, I might just throw a bone at Uncle Sam and pay it..
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      10-10-2020, 07:03 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by wtwo3 View Post
I meant more from a cost perspective. Will the new C63 be a significantly cheaper option due to it having a much smaller, 2.0 liter 4 cylinder and thus lower taxation? I would imagine if it is, that's enough to have it sell much more than the M3.
I don't imagine it being significantly cheaper looking at the list price. An A45S can be over 90k already (which is absurd for a fking A class), add on top of that the premium for the C class + the cost of the hybrid and we're looking at 110-120k. In line with the M3 or the RS5. However, what might be the sellin gpoint (in some coutries) are the mentioned tax benefits. In Germany the car will literally cost the half (if you get it as a company car).

Last edited by Flamingi; 10-10-2020 at 07:13 AM..
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      10-10-2020, 07:08 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
WoW, this thread was pretty eye-opening; I had no idea the tax rate was this costly, in parts of Europe.. I honestly assumed the opposite, being that most are liberal leaning.. 🤷🏻

And I thought I had it bad here in the US at 8%..

I was thinking about becoming an online gospel pastor, just to be exempted paying sales tax, on my next car but seeing how proportionally lower it is to the ROW, I might just throw a bone at Uncle Sam and pay it..
Very hard to compare such things. Yes, the tax rate is much higher, but it pays (amongst other things) the pension and health care. In the end the overall cost of living is pretty much the same compared to the US. We pay more taxes upfront, but you have to pay your own health insurance etc. It's just more what you would call "socialist" (it isn't "socialist", it's social, but this is not the right place to discuss such things).
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      10-10-2020, 08:00 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
It's only attainable in a few countries around the world. In most of Europe, if you have an M3 you are a wealthy person.

When your income is half (at most) what it is in the US, then you are taxed ~60% of that, then out of the 40% remaining you still have to pay ~20% VAT plus 70% tax on gasoline, property taxes, etc, well, you're basically living with 30% of your income.
Lol never saw that much BS written in a single post.
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Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Let's break it out in numbers.
In the US let's say you make 200k/year. In Europe let's assume you can find the same job and you're lucky that it pays you ~50%. Let's say 100k/year.
Only true in certain areas (e.g. Computer Science stuff in SF), on average the wage in the EU is like 20% less than in the US (depending on which country of Europe you compare it to), so if you earn $200k in the US, you will earn $160k=€135k in Europe. Factoring in cost of living (mainly health care) it actually is less than the wage in Europe - but more to that later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Taxes take half of that. You have 50k left
Just plain wrong. Let's look at Germany, which is above average in taxation. If you earn €135k you are in the highest tax bracket, you will pay €40.8k in taxes, €7.7k in pension (like your 401k I think), €1k in unemplyoment insurance, €4.4k in health insurance and €1k in care insurance. This means based on €135k gross income, the net income is €80k ($94k). But, you have free health insurace, no copay. You will be paid your full wage up to 12 months and after that 60% if you get sick. You get paid 60% of your last wage if you loose your job (up to 12 months). You will get €3.3k per month in pension (it's capped at 3.3k) once you retire. All that included in those measly 40% you pay, Just being in the hospital a single time would probably cost more in the US, not speaking about any major health problems where you rack up millions in medical debt - even though you have insurance.

Compare that to the US, where you would have a take home salary of $132k, but you still need to pay health insurance (premium + deductible + out-of-pocket costs + copayments), 401k, unemployment insurance and everything else regarding social security. You will notice you get to a very similar available income very fast. Add to that the extremely high cost of living in urban areas and you will come out to less purchase power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
VAT takes 20% of that. You have 40k left.
There is no VAT on you income lol, you pay VAT on the product. So you're still at 94k of net income.

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Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
If you want to buy a car there's an additional VAT of ~20%. If you want fuel it's 8/gal.
No it's not additional, it's just the normal VAT, which is included in every product. BTW prices in Europe already include this VAT, so the 100k for a car in Europe are just 100k - no additional stuff. Just some extra cost for high emissions vehicles (That's in a few countries like Nordics or France). Fuel really depends on the country, but its around $8/gal (keep in mind it's better fuel, $8/gal gets you Aral Ultimate 102 comparable to 98 in the US, for about $6/gal you can get premium, for $5/gal standard)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
You pay property tax, you pay for private healthcare because the public healthcare is clogged up.
You don't have a lot of money left when all is said and done.
Property tax is actually less than in the US (on average). You don't pay for private healthcare, 90% have a public health insurance (the benefit of private insurance is, that it's cheaper when you're younger, but it get's much more expensive once you get older. Also, private health insurance might pay for non standard treatment. Public health insurance might not be availabel if you're self-employed) - which btw is not clogged up. In case of an emergency of course you will not sit around waiting for hours, care is taken of you based on priority. If you only have a small scratch - sure you'll probably have to wait, but if you have a serious incident you will be taken care of immediately. Getting a doctors appointment is usually just a waiting time of a couple days maybe 2 weeks - for anything non priority of course. If you're actually sick and need an appointment very soon you will get it in like the next 2 days (and if you need it right now, you can go to the ER). Everything I just mentioned of course without any copay. If you have a scratch somewhere - no extra costs. Broken arm - no extra costs. Diabetes - no extra costs. Giving birth - no extra costs. Cancer - no extra costs.

Last edited by Flamingi; 10-10-2020 at 08:24 AM..
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      10-10-2020, 08:30 AM   #63
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@Flamingi very well put! Sometimes headlines and generalizations have a way of skewing the facts. But the benefits you get in the EU is phenomenal.
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      10-10-2020, 08:44 AM   #64
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@Flamingi very well put! Sometimes headlines and generalizations have a way of skewing the facts. But the benefits you get in the EU is phenomenal.
+1.
Each country has it's virtues and it's inconveniences, but the case for Europe has been well defended here.
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      10-10-2020, 09:45 AM   #65
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157,000 Euros!!!! My word that is incredible, that tax is insane.

U.K. pricing is £75k base which is a lot but it has more features and I think that's on the road and about 1/2 the OPs price in France.

Incredible.

Brussels and VW dieselgate have a lot to answer for.
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      10-10-2020, 01:55 PM   #66
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The worst part isn't even the added tax; it's the ruining of the engine sound by muting the exhaust. So glad the US doesn't do this!
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