01-22-2022, 04:20 PM | #67 |
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Yes I dont disagree with that logic, but a Carrera 4 with AWD will likely gain back the advantage. The 911s are just so much faster in corners and the fact that they are much lighter.
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01-22-2022, 06:39 PM | #68 | |
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01-23-2022, 08:17 AM | #69 |
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01-23-2022, 10:52 AM | #70 |
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I don't know if it's been discussed before, but Matt's car already had a pretty bad 0-60 mph measurement in another test if I remember right, it's weird. In almost all other reviews of the Gx the numbers were much better.
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01-24-2022, 04:34 PM | #71 | ||
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In some cases it is actually the other way around (not talking about GTS): https://fastestlaps.com/models/porsc...carrera-4s-992 https://fastestlaps.com/models/bmw-m4-competition-coupe If we look at the Sachsenring lap time, the RWD M4 is actually faster around the track than the 992 4S, it has faster 0-200 km/h time and better rolling acceleration (100-200 km/h), and all that for the much lower price and overall better all-round package! But we should wait for the new M4CS that is better comparison for the 992 2S/4S price wise. This is the first time in history that the M3/4 is so close to the top of the range Carrera, and even better in some cases, and I have little doubt that the CS will dominate the Porsche most of the time, especialy in XDrive version. |
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01-24-2022, 05:31 PM | #72 | |
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There are also other quality issues. Had to replace some plastic parts around the front tyres because I drove into a "pond" on the highway. Never ever has that happened in any of my BMW:s. And I have had loads of them. And another issue is all the software problems. Ok its a newish model and first fully electric P-car in modern times but still I would hope the software to work better if I pay 142k eur for the car. The Taycan drives fantastic and for such a heavy car its incredible nimble but quality sucks in many areas.
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01-24-2022, 06:50 PM | #73 | |
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If your going to talk M4 CSL that competes with a GT3 and definitely will be an uphill battle which it’s never won before. If you look at the Carrera S which in reality makes about 100 hp less and has a lesser power to weight, it beats not only the M3/4 Rwd, but also beats the Comp and Xdrive at every track they’ve have an overlapping time on. These M cars are fast but they are quite hefty and it shows. Over 5 or 10 laps the deltas would be quite large too. https://fastestlaps.com/models/porsc...-carrera-s-992 https://fastestlaps.com/models/bmw-m...etition-xdrive The 911 is faster on the Ring, Hockenheim, Sachsenring, Variano handling course. etc. Any track where there are comparable the S is faster. I absolutely think my G80 M3 is incredible for the price but these cars make times based on power whereas the 911s make lap times more on handling and braking than pure power and to me the latter not only is more impressive but more sustainable lap after lap. Just look at how close the GT3 got the the AMG black series while being down on power by about 250 hp. The M3 does provide a great all around package but the Porsches are just the better package for driving. And in the space of GT cars, not even close. That’s my take as the owner of both currently and many previously. Porsches have always been more expensive. They sell at far lower numbers, so yea, they’re going to be expensive. IMO they’re well worth MSRP for the performance and quality that they delivery. Last edited by HeelToeShift; 01-25-2022 at 08:11 AM.. |
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01-25-2022, 02:45 PM | #74 | |
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The 911 from the factory has a greater grip-to-weight ratio. While the OEM contact patches are similar between the two cars, the Porsche weighs quite a bit less, and has the better ratio. Once you equalize the grip-to-weight ratio, say with a nice set of track wheels/tires, the performance gap disappears completely.
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01-25-2022, 03:19 PM | #75 | |
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If you compare a similar hp 911 like a GT3 (which still has no torque) or a GTS the 911 still much faster if all variables are static. I don't know if you're talking about driving events or SCCA events but the former mean little because there are too many volatile variables (skill set, track prep, tires, how much each person is pushing) which make comparison next to impossible. At the same time I surely feel that my M3 is absolutely tuned and feels more on the realm of maximized for performance. From a suspension standpoint, it feels like it needs less than my 718 GT4 does... I've not taken the G80 to the track yet but I feel like the GT4 needs more in terms of alignment than the GT does. I also think BMW did well in terms of tires this go around - the powerband and grip are incredible! Let's also be honest, the new 911's are no longer true sports cars. They're luxury oriented GT cars first and foremost now. Bigger, heavier, and absolutely primarily made to be daily drivers. Last edited by HeelToeShift; 01-25-2022 at 04:22 PM.. |
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01-25-2022, 04:25 PM | #76 | |||||
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And in most head to head comparisons (on the same day), M4C was always faster than the base Carrera on the track (which was not the case in the past), and marginally slower than the S model, and if the XDrive is on average faster about 0,5 - 1sec. on some tracks than the RWD M4, it would be also as fast as 911 2S on some tracks which is nothing short of amazing! Quote:
https://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/hpl1rdf20e2t But I do agree that the new M4CSL will have a hard time beating GT3 on any track, but we have to wait and see?! Quote:
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I have found only one track where XDrive and Carrera S are over lapping, but like I said, on some tracks the difference might be nonexistent judging by the time RWD M4 set. Quote:
So, to say that M3/4 is making its time just based on power is wrong, and the fact that the BMW is considerably faster on the track than its rivals with the same amount of power (Gulia, C63S etc.) is just showing that they have made a great handling car! Also, the M4XDrive was faster on Monticello Motor Club North Course than the Cadillac CT5-V Blackwing that has significantly better power to weight ratio. At the moment, in my opinion there is not better value for the money than the M4, with almost Carrera S performance level on the track, and the CS model will only elevate that even higher! |
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01-25-2022, 04:47 PM | #77 | |
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As far as proof, the fact that the M3 weights 3800-3900 lbs and traps 124-125 mph is all the proof you need. The car is making 550+ hp. You mention that the M4 is less than a second off the Carrera S, which is correct, however, you are not taking into account that the M4 was on Cup 2 tires whereas the Carrera S was on a performance summer tire. Cup tires are worth 5-7 seconds on the Ring so really it was something like 6-8 seconds slower when on equal tires, and that is a lot of time by any measure. The Carrera S was 0.6 seconds faster than the M4 xdrive on Hockenheim too. Even the last gen 991.2 Carrera S on summer tires was faster than the M4 GTS which not only more powerful, but set up for track (it's BMWs GT3 competitor afterall) and had cup tires but was still slower. Even the 991.2 GTS ran low 7:2X on Cups with only 440 hp. I prefer watching head to head but as far as what we've got the 911 still shows why it punches way above its hp rating. To add, just look at what Porsche did with the Cayenne GT...it's nearly as fast as the M4 GTS. Talk about remarkable. These are all fantastic vehicles that offer performance differently. Last edited by HeelToeShift; 01-25-2022 at 06:00 PM.. |
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01-26-2022, 06:41 AM | #78 | |||
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911 is most definitely punching way above its HP rating, no doubt about it, but considering all other factors so is BMW M historically. I simply prefer everything about M4 more, especially in this generation, and the fact that it is so close to the 911 S performance wise, but I definitely respect the 911 capabilities! |
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01-26-2022, 08:14 AM | #79 | |
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Having owned my fair share of 911s, I don't think they're underrated at all. Porsche is no a sandbagging company when it comes to power whereas BMW are significantly underrated. I definitely like that the M3 provides 911 base or a bit more performance because it's a great car when you need to fit people. When I want to drive a pinpoint weapon and sounds and feels more 'race car', my GT4 is hard to beat. I don't agree with you re: M4 Xdrive since there was already a test for it (below) and the 992S was .6 seconds faster as I mentioned previously. https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...tail&FORM=VIRE M4XC did 1:53.9 and doubt it will suddenly shave off more than a half a second in another test especially when conditions there were very good. The M4 time on the PS4S was def better but the 911 time was on crap Pirelli tires so id imagine the 911 would also be faster on PS4S since those tires are so great. End of the day, I am glad the M3 is offered because the prices of many 911s are starting to touch areas where I cant justify. 200K for a C4S or C2S with Aerokit with the ADMs is just nutty. Last edited by HeelToeShift; 01-26-2022 at 08:40 AM.. |
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01-27-2022, 09:19 AM | #80 | |||
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So similarly, at HPDE you have groups, and I’m talking about the Advanced groups where all people push as much as they are comfortable with. I mean street driven cars that get there on their own power (although many Porsches are trailered just because it’s cooler). I’m telling you that an M3 with minor mods absolutely laps with all kinds of Porsches. GT3/RS may still hold an advantage but it is smaller than you think. And at twice the price they should. Quote:
Your G will do well at the track, I had the pleasure of running with a very fast fellow in an M4C at PittRace last summer. He was very quick, very good driver, but could only have fun for 3 sessions. The brakes were toast, and the front tires got completely shredded. So don’t kid yourself, you’ll need the usual: pads, tires and camber plates. I’m not sure if the aftermarket has caught up yet…
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01-31-2022, 09:18 PM | #81 | ||
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02-01-2022, 03:42 PM | #82 |
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My issue with the base 992 is no manual.
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02-01-2022, 05:07 PM | #83 |
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02-01-2022, 06:16 PM | #84 | |
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02-02-2022, 09:08 AM | #85 |
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What Porsche is going to do, I'd imagine, is come to market with Carrera T available in manual. It will be the only base of the 992 range that will have the 7 speed.
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02-02-2022, 09:21 AM | #86 | |
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The bucket seats were great, the steering had very good linearity across the straight ahead with no load, usually a hallmark of good steering systems. The suspension calibration was very good. The manual gearbox was acceptable. The short path from engine to wheels means less overall play in the system and a more connected feel from your right foot to the action. But you had to really trash it around to go quickly, and it had way too much grip for the street. At $120k used, I thought “no way”. It wasn’t a performance step up from my car. Just a step up in feel and intangibles, but for double the price. I would consider the 911 S a step up in performance and would like to experience it. But not at those prices…
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02-02-2022, 09:36 AM | #87 | |
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https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...storical-data/ The Carrera S is definitely a step up, especially since you open up more of the performance oriented options you can't get on a base car but the prices have gotten so far out there. the 992 GTS cars are approaching 200K before any market adjustment. That's just pushing the envelope too much no matter how great the car is... Last edited by HeelToeShift; 02-02-2022 at 10:16 AM.. |
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02-02-2022, 10:14 AM | #88 | |
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