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View Poll Results: DCT or traditional AT?
I prefer a DCT. 228 60.00%
I prefer a traditional AT. 32 8.42%
Either is fine with me. 52 13.68%
I don't care. No manual, no purchase. 68 17.89%
Voters: 380. You may not vote on this poll

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      07-03-2019, 08:43 PM   #67
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All mine M3 were MT
I was also one of the first guys to own F90 M5
And it took some use to it but, end up really liking it
At the end I can't live without MT so I am getting G80 MT
Planning to track it as much as I can
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      07-03-2019, 10:00 PM   #68
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I would stipulate that the ZF8 is not a "traditional " auto transmission. I will bet there will be quite a few people pleasantly surprised at the performance of the new M3 and M4 , including the ZF8. I can't wait to see the them
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      07-03-2019, 10:33 PM   #69
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I would stipulate that the ZF8 is not a "traditional " auto transmission. I will bet there will be quite a few people pleasantly surprised at the performance of the new M3 and M4 , including the ZF8. I can't wait to see the them
It is a "traditional" auto transmission in the sense that it has planetary gear sets and a torque converter so its technologically similar to the "slushboxes" of years past but in terms of performance it is head and shoulders above the ATs of a generation ago. Due to the lock up of the torque converter once the car is moving, the extremely fast shift times, auto rev matching, etc. it gives the DCT a run for its money and tends overall to be smoother shifting (which contrary to public opinion is not a bad thing).

Things to take into consideration:

1. Both transmissions can shift faster than the blink of an eye which ranges from 300 to 400 milliseconds.
2. Both transmission shift faster than the best professional race drivers can shift a manual transmission.
3. Realistically, what are we doing with these cars on public roads where shift speeds that are faster than the blink of an eye will make a difference?
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      07-04-2019, 09:40 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
It is a "traditional" auto transmission in the sense that it has planetary gear sets and a torque converter so its technologically similar to the "slushboxes" of years past but in terms of performance it is head and shoulders above the ATs of a generation ago. Due to the lock up of the torque converter once the car is moving, the extremely fast shift times, auto rev matching, etc. it gives the DCT a run for its money and tends overall to be smoother shifting (which contrary to public opinion is not a bad thing).

Things to take into consideration:

1. Both transmissions can shift faster than the blink of an eye which ranges from 300 to 400 milliseconds.
2. Both transmission shift faster than the best professional race drivers can shift a manual transmission.
3. Realistically, what are we doing with these cars on public roads where shift speeds that are faster than the blink of an eye will make a difference?
1. Let's say it sometimes shifts around 200 millisecond=0.2 second. If any of the shift is done in this range the delay is noticeable enough to be uncomfortable, especially if you plan to track the car or drive at 9/10th.
I find torque converter in high torque applications inconsistent in shifting in especially the downshifts as the computer is trying to figure out the safest release point <7,400 rpm which doesn't cause oil cavitation in the gearbox. Getrag DCT on the other hand is rated <=9,000 rpm which is more than enough for any turbocharged engines, so it does not have this lag.

2. The complaint about dropping DCT is not having "fast enough" transmission in either case but rather going from "fastest, uncompromising shifts" of DCT to "fast enough" shifts of torque converter.
It might have worked with the grandpa community of M5-M8 buyers, but I refuse to buy an M car that has been compromised for cost cutting and daily smoothness. M340i is and should be the sole option for duality towards the daily driveability.

3. As I repeat, M stands for motorsport. If you putter around a town or floor it once in a while on the highway and don't drive the car 9 to 10/10th around tight corners of a track or mountain roads, M is just a poser car.

Having a trim level (competition, CS, etc) to separate the degree of hardcore in my opinion is an excellent choice, but the base has to be good to satisfy customers of all range. I've test driven N55 M2 DCT and it was one of the fastest, smoothest transmissions I've ever driven and is on the par with PDK on 718 Cayman GTS (also test driven). ZFat on F90 M5? Not even close.
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      07-04-2019, 10:08 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
1. Let's say it sometimes shifts around 200 millisecond=0.2 second. If any of the shift is done in this range the delay is noticeable enough to be uncomfortable, especially if you plan to track the car or drive at 9/10th.
I find torque converter in high torque applications inconsistent in shifting in especially the downshifts as the computer is trying to figure out the safest release point <7,400 rpm which doesn't cause oil cavitation in the gearbox. Getrag DCT on the other hand is rated <=9,000 rpm which is more than enough for any turbocharged engines, so it does not have this lag.

2. The complaint about dropping DCT is not having "fast enough" transmission in either case but rather going from "fastest, uncompromising shifts" of DCT to "fast enough" shifts of torque converter.
It might have worked with the grandpa community of M5-M8 buyers, but I refuse to buy an M car that has been compromised for cost cutting and daily smoothness. M340i is and should be the sole option for duality towards the daily driveability.

3. As I repeat, M stands for motorsport. If you putter around a town or floor it once in a while on the highway and don't drive the car 9 to 10/10th around tight corners of a track or mountain roads, M is just a poser car.

Having a trim level (competition, CS, etc) to separate the degree of hardcore in my opinion is an excellent choice, but the base has to be good to satisfy customers of all range. I've test driven N55 M2 DCT and it was one of the fastest, smoothest transmissions I've ever driven and is on the par with PDK on 718 Cayman GTS (also test driven). ZFat on F90 M5? Not even close.
As was stated in several earlier posts the torque converter in the ZF is locked up once the car is in motion and does not have a role in the shifting of gears. Gear changes are accomplished by 4 gear sets and 5 shift elements (3 clutches and 2 brakes).

By your definition my M4 is definitely a poser car as I have no intention of tracking it and I do not drive it at 10/10th on mountain roads. I bought it as a GT car and that is what I consider it to be. When I want to drive at 10/10th I have access to dedicated track cars and I have a track membership with 50 track days per year.
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Last edited by captainaudio; 07-04-2019 at 10:17 AM..
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      07-04-2019, 10:11 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
As was stated in several earlier posts the torque converter in the ZF is locked up once the car is in motion and does not have a role in the shifting of gears. Gear changes are accomplished by 4 gear sets and 5 shift elements (3 clutches and 2 brakes).

By your definition my M4 is definitely a poser car as I have no intention of tracking it and I do not drive it at 10/10th on mountain roads. I bought it as a GT car and that is what I consider it to be.

When I want to exercise my race car driver fantasies I drive dedicated track cars on race tracks.
When I say ZF torque converter, it is figurative. I am referring to the ZF automatic transmission.

You drive an M4 Cabriolet so obviously in a different direction compared to the Coupe owners, and I respect that.
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      07-04-2019, 10:24 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
When I say ZF torque converter, it is figurative. I am referring to the ZF automatic transmission.

You drive an M4 Cabriolet so obviously in a different direction compared to the Coupe owners, and I respect that.
I realize that my situation and what I desire in a road car may not coincide with many others and I do not question other people's motivations.

If I had a coupe I would not drive it any differently and I would not track it and there is no car that I would drive at 10/10ths on public roads and as much as I like the DCT I suspect I would be perfectly content with the ZF.
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      07-04-2019, 10:56 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
If I had a coupe I would not drive it any differently and I would not track it and there is no car that I would drive at 10/10ths on public roads.
The way I've phrased it may have been extreme. Main point though still stands.

ZFat may be smoother but is NOT consistently faster than DCT because if it was, BMW would have advertised the hole out of it No reason to go for ZFat over an already winning formula other than cost related to AWD. I would hate to see 1800kg M3; it is already heavy as is.

Furthermore, when I buy an M or any car I first look for the capability of invoking a sensory drama by the driver, not by the car. This is the reason I greatly value elements related to the connection.
While DCT is not as engaging as the MT it compensates by shift speed and distinct feel, close in philosophy to the clutch driven, sequential transmission used in race cars. It's a great alternative to those who miss the mechanical feel.
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      07-04-2019, 12:40 PM   #75
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I donít understand the argument that they have to move to the ZF because the higher TQ engine requires it. The S58 wonít have more torque than an F10 M5 will it? The DCT was fine with the TQ levels of that car.
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      07-04-2019, 05:42 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nirvanayoda View Post
I don’t understand the argument that they have to move to the ZF because the higher TQ engine requires it. The S58 won’t have more torque than an F10 M5 will it? The DCT was fine with the TQ levels of that car.
It's an excuse , nothing more . They made the move for cost savings ( using one cheaper trans in all their awd M cars ) . Ford and Chevy using DCT in their upcoming highest performance cars shows that the American companies are valuing performance and driver experience above all else . You know like BMW used to do ....
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      07-05-2019, 08:13 AM   #77
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I also think the ZF is just a cost cutting measure. I don't think it will ever be like the DCT.
Just the fact that the current RS5, Guilia etc use it tells you it's a transmission for posers who like bragging about 'going to the track' but never go.

However, I have driven the current M5 competition and must say the ZF does an admirable job of feeling like a DCT during hard street driving. Whether it is able to handle hard track use is another question entirely
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      07-05-2019, 08:15 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nirvanayoda View Post
I donít understand the argument that they have to move to the ZF because the higher TQ engine requires it. The S58 wonít have more torque than an F10 M5 will it? The DCT was fine with the TQ levels of that car.
In the case of the S58 vs S55 it isn't so much torque, it has to do with their desire to make it AWD so all the idiots that cannot handle 500hp on a single axle can drive around without problems.

I'm sure the AWD decision in the M5 also is the core motivation to move to the ZF
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      07-05-2019, 11:14 AM   #79
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Mercedes puts a dual clutch transmission in their small FWD cars. Makes it even more disappointing with the ZF direction BMW are heading with their M cars. I think G80 has the potential to be fantastic with the right gearbox.


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      07-05-2019, 01:04 PM   #80
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Its for cost cutting. The ZF8 is in everything from a 228i to a F90 M5. I have never driven a ZF that is better than a DCT hard driving. They upshift quick and are less finicky than DCT transmissions in how they have to be driven (dct's still roll back on hills, you still feel the clutch engagement, etc). But my f30 was terribly slow when asking for downshifts flying into corners with the ABS kicking in. There are many reviews on the new supra saying the same thing.

Majority of M car drivers are not on this forum. They don't care about the automatic having a split second slower downshift, or the f80 having turbo lag compared to the e92.

They buy the car because it looks cool and to show off. They will never turn off traction control, they won't know how to setup the M1 and M2 modes. So I understand why BMW has done this.
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      07-05-2019, 01:30 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Humdizzle View Post
Its for cost cutting. The ZF8 is in everything from a 228i to a F90 M5. I have never driven a ZF that is better than a DCT hard driving. They upshift quick and are less finicky than DCT transmissions in how they have to be driven (dct's still roll back on hills, you still feel the clutch engagement, etc). But my f30 was terribly slow when asking for downshifts flying into corners with the ABS kicking in. There are many reviews on the new supra saying the same thing.

Majority of M car drivers are not on this forum. They don't care about the automatic having a split second slower downshift, or the f80 having turbo lag compared to the e92.

They buy the car because it looks cool and to show off. They will never turn off traction control, they won't know how to setup the M1 and M2 modes. So I understand why BMW has done this.
They also can't see over the hood power dome.
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      07-09-2019, 10:08 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Humdizzle View Post
Its for cost cutting. The ZF8 is in everything from a 228i to a F90 M5. I have never driven a ZF that is better than a DCT hard driving. They upshift quick and are less finicky than DCT transmissions in how they have to be driven (dct's still roll back on hills, you still feel the clutch engagement, etc). But my f30 was terribly slow when asking for downshifts flying into corners with the ABS kicking in. There are many reviews on the new supra saying the same thing.

Majority of M car drivers are not on this forum. They don't care about the automatic having a split second slower downshift, or the f80 having turbo lag compared to the e92.

They buy the car because it looks cool and to show off. They will never turn off traction control, they won't know how to setup the M1 and M2 modes. So I understand why BMW has done this.


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      07-10-2019, 01:38 PM   #83
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I owned the F90 M5 and I love the power output specially after tuning. The ZF8 was good but not perfect.
I just like to be connected with the car and have fun on track. Not necessarily have the best lap time but just pure driving enjoyment.
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      07-10-2019, 07:36 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmd2003 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by nirvanayoda View Post
I don't understand the argument that they have to move to the ZF because the higher TQ engine requires it. The S58 won't have more torque than an F10 M5 will it? The DCT was fine with the TQ levels of that car.
It's an excuse , nothing more . They made the move for cost savings ( using one cheaper trans in all their awd M cars ) . Ford and Chevy using DCT in their upcoming highest performance cars shows that the American companies are valuing performance and driver experience above all else . You know like BMW used to do ....
That's why I'm growing out my Mullet and putting on some Mr. T Gold Chains.

BMW is going downhill fast and I'm getting prepared for some American Muscle action.
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      07-11-2019, 04:28 PM   #85
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If itís not a dual clutch, Iím not a buyer. Would probably prefer the m550i at the same price. Or pay a little more and get the PDK in the pamanera ST. Shift time isnít the issue, itís lag between pulling the paddle and the car shifting. Complete disappointment.
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      07-11-2019, 05:15 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blip Bavarian View Post
Shift time isnít the issue, itís lag between pulling the paddle and the car shifting.
Spot on... the Audi/VW dual clutch had this problem too. Very fast shifts (they claimed 60ms or similar), but you pull the paddle and then cross your fingers hoping that it's going to get the gear change done in time.
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      07-11-2019, 09:52 PM   #87
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Prefer DCT but BMW going AT route.
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      07-12-2019, 07:46 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbar View Post
Spot on... the Audi/VW dual clutch had this problem too. Very fast shifts (they claimed 60ms or similar), but you pull the paddle and then cross your fingers hoping that it's going to get the gear change done in time.
It would seem to me that a shift speed measurement should be a measurement of the time between the selection of the gear and the engagement of the gear.

When Audi and other manufacturers are claiming 60ms shift times how are they arriving at that figure?
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