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      12-08-2019, 09:51 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wills2 View Post
If you've got 992 C4 money and don't need the proper rear seats of the M3/4 then I wouldn't bother with the M3/4 either.
..I dont see the M4 and 992 as competitors.. is it just me?
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      12-08-2019, 10:07 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
..I dont see the M4 and 992 as competitors.. is it just me?
Nope. At least not directly. I am sure everyone will have their own criteria and pick certain things to make them compete but IMO, Porsche is pretty much in a league of their own when it comes to the 911 (Macan/Cayenne/Panamera compete with everything else, just with a heavy premium).

If you want a pure sports car or the closest thing to it, you buy 911. Period. If you're looking for more, that's when you start to look at the M3/M4, RS5 and C63 and that's because you're likely looking for those creature comforts and everyday drivability and liveability.

But that's just me.
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      12-08-2019, 11:36 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
..I dont see the M4 and 992 as competitors.. is it just me?
Nope but you can still use a P-car as an example of something nice.
For us the 911 is an option of our next car, it doesn’t mean it’s a technical competitor to the M4 because it isn’t due to many factors.

Sometimes you move on up or down when you buy a new car, sometimes you move into totally different segments
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      12-08-2019, 11:41 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wills2 View Post
If you've got 992 C4 money and don't need the proper rear seats of the M3/4 then I wouldn't bother with the M3/4 either.
Agreed and we do but we are on the fence about the rear seats. Itís going to be some hassle which I didnít think my wife were willing to accept but it seems I could be wrong, weíll see .
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      12-09-2019, 09:24 AM   #71
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When can we expect this to hit dealers ?
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      12-09-2019, 09:26 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by flightz71 View Post
It's a design / cost call. F82 does have wider rear fenders - they just chose to flare the whole rear quarter panel instead of a fender flare.

F80 on the other had doesn't have enough space - there is a rear door in the way. Best was to do flares instead of design a custom rear door separate from standard 3-series vehicles. Ironically, most enthusiasts prefer flares as they're much more noticeable, me included.
The majority of individuals prefer the look of the M3 than the M4. I'm not talking about a 2dr vs 4dr just the way the car looks. There's even a poll on these forums that has roughly 7 out of 10 people that prefer M3 over M4 looks.
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      12-09-2019, 09:32 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3GymNut View Post
The majority of individuals prefer the look of the M3 than the M4. I'm not talking about a 2dr vs 4dr just the way the car looks. There's even a poll on these forums that has roughly 7 out of 10 people that prefer M3 over M4 looks.
I'm curious about which model sold more. Do we have any current sales figures?
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      12-09-2019, 09:52 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by M3GymNut View Post
The majority of individuals prefer the look of the M3 than the M4. I'm not talking about a 2dr vs 4dr just the way the car looks. There's even a poll on these forums that has roughly 7 out of 10 people that prefer M3 over M4 looks.
I believe this is correct. I’m not one of those people though even if I own the M3. I prefer the look of the M4 with it’s lower roofline and wide body. This is the combination that make super cars look like super cars a very low roofline and a very wide body. The new 4 look to have an even lower roofline with a lesser upright windscreen than the already relatively low windscreen of the F82. BMW does a great job with the M3 giving it those racy wheel arch flares but I still prefer the look of a low and wide coupe than a narrow body sedan or coupe with large rear wheel arch flares.

If BMW would make an M4 GC what would make it an M4 and not an M3 is a lower roofline and a wider body with smaller rear flares.

Last edited by solstice; 12-09-2019 at 09:57 AM..
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      12-09-2019, 10:05 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
I believe this is correct.
Not based on this:

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1363992

Do we have updated figures because numbers show overwhelmingly that BMW M coupes outsell the sedans.
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      12-09-2019, 10:31 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Not based on this:

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1363992

Do we have updated figures because numbers show overwhelmingly that BMW M coupes outsell the sedans.
Forum blinders again
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      12-09-2019, 10:50 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Do we have updated figures because numbers show overwhelmingly that BMW M coupes outsell the sedans.
This is limited to the M3/M4 (and formerly M3 sedan/coupe). I don't have the data in front of me, but I doubt that the M6 coupe ever outsold the M5 nor M6 Gran Coupe, and I don't think that the M8 coupe will outsell the M5 nor the M8 Gran Coupe. Of course, an M5 is significantly less expensive than an M6/M8 of the same vintage, but the difference between the Gran Coupe and the coupe models is similar (by percentage) to the difference between the M3 and M4. No, a Gran Coupe is not strictly equivalent to a sedan, but the idea is similar - same performance, more rear passenger convenience.

The M3 sedan has not been a regular model in the lineup over the generations, so until this coming generation it has never had the same conditions as the coupe under which to establish momentum. I suspect we will see the G80 M3 be even more popular than the F80 was.

Also, part of the reason the F80 M3 will ultimately be outsold by the F82 once final numbers are available is that the coupe is on the market for about a year and a half longer. The same will hold true for this generation. But, come next year when F82 production ends we should be able to determine which one had the higher sales rate. I suspect that it's going to be pretty close. It still won't be a completely fair comparison since over the last year and half of its life, the M4 will likely have enjoyed some additional sales simply because there was no M3 available.
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      12-09-2019, 10:57 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
This is limited to the M3/M4 (and formerly M3 sedan/coupe).

I don't have the data in front of me, but I doubt that the M6 coupe ever outsold the M5 nor M6 Gran Coupe, and I don't think that the M8 coupe will outsell the M5 nor the M8 Gran Coupe. Of course, an M5 is significantly less expensive than an M6/M8 of the same vintage, but the difference between the Gran Coupe and the coupe models is similar (by percentage) to the difference between the M3 and M4. No, a Gran Coupe is not strictly equivalent to a sedan, but the idea is similar - same performance, more rear passenger convenience.

The M3 sedan has not been a regular model in the lineup, so until this coming generation it has never had the same conditions under which to establish momentum. I suspect we will see the G80 M3 be even more popular than the F80 was.

Also, part of the reason the F80 M3 will ultimately be outsold by the F82 once final numbers are available is that it is on the market for about a year and a half less time. The same will hold true for this generation. But, come next year when F82 production ends we should be able to determine which one had the actual higher sales rate. I suspect that it's going to be pretty close. Of course, it still won't be completely fair since over the last year and half of its life, the M4 will likely have enjoyed some additional sales simply because there was no M3 available.
Yes, I was referring to M3/M4 sales.

I believe the coupe E46's and E9X's outsold their sedan counterparts as well, be it ///M or non-///M.

To be fair, wasn't the F80 on the market before the coupe? I don't recall exactly.
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      12-09-2019, 11:07 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Yes, I was referring to M3/M4 sales.

I believe the coupe E46's and E9X's outsold their sedan counterparts as well, be it ///M or non-///M.

To be fair, wasn't the F80 on the market before the coupe? I don't recall exactly.
They were launched and available simultaneously. Further I recall members having problem securing M3 allocations at time. If I recall they were either more limited at times or more popular causing this. My dealer had two initial M3 allocations according to them whereof I got one
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      12-09-2019, 11:13 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Yes, I was referring to M3/M4 sales.

I believe the coupe E46's and E9X's outsold their sedan counterparts as well, be it ///M or non-///M.

To be fair, wasn't the F80 on the market before the coupe? I don't recall exactly.
They were launched and available simultaneously. Further I recall members having problem securing M3 allocations at time. If I recall they were either more limited at times or more popular causing this.
Got it!

For coupe/sedan reference.....


BMW sold 14,700 E92 MT M3 coupes; 29,188 E92 M-DCT coupes.

BMW sold 4,318 E90 MT M3 sedans; 5,288 E90 M-DCT coupes.

I'm still looking for final E46 non-M coupe/sedan numbers, but those figures are staggering in favor of coupes in general. I remember seeing the E46 numbers a long time ago and the numbers favored the coupes by a significant margin.


BMW has sold a total of 16,057 F80 M3's in the U.S. among the variants (..launch, LCI, ZCP, CS, etc.). I'm fairly certain that the coupe will nearly double that number.
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      12-09-2019, 11:33 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Got it!

For coupe/sedan reference.....


BMW sold 14,700 E92 MT M3 coupes; 29,188 E92 M-DCT coupes.

BMW sold 4,318 E90 MT M3 sedans; 5,288 E90 M-DCT coupes.

I'm still looking for final E46 non-M coupe/sedan numbers, but those figures are staggering in favor of coupes in general. I remember seeing the E46 numbers a long time ago and the numbers favored the coupes by a significant margin.


BMW has sold a total of 16,057 F80 M3's in the U.S. among the variants (..launch, LCI, ZCP, CS, etc.). I'm fairly certain that the coupe will nearly double that number.
Anecdotally my E90 M3 was definitely a more rare bird than the E92 M3s around here. With the F80 M3 it feels more equal vs the M4 maybe with a slight nod to the M3.

Total sales numbers are as mkoesel point out not a good measure on popularity unless given for years when both models were on sale.

And then you have the matter of need vs. looks scewing the numbers as in my case. I prefer the look of the M4 but needed 4 doors.
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      12-09-2019, 11:37 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Anecdotally my E90 M3 was definitely a more rare bird than the E92s M3 around here. With the F80 M3 it feels more equal vs the M4 maybe with a slight nod to the M3.

Total sales numbers are as mkoesel point out not a good measure on popularity unless given for years when both models were on sale.
In most cases you and mkoesel make an argument that has merit, but even speaking generally, BMW midsized coupes outsell sedans. Prior to the F8X, the E9X M3 sedan hit the market before the coupe did, and the coupe stayed on the market after the sedan was retired, BUT.....mere availability doesn't totally account for the staggering difference in the sales numbers. We're talking 45,000 coupes sold versus 10,000 sedans sold. That is not a mere availability phenomena. That's evidence of a popularity difference.
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      12-09-2019, 11:41 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
In most cases you and mkoesel make an argument that has merit, but even speaking generally, BMW midsized coupes outsell sedans. Prior to the F8X, the E9X M3 sedan hit the market before the coupe did, and the coupe stayed on the market longer, BUT.....mere availability doesn't totally account for the staggering difference in the sales numbers.
Agreed.
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      12-09-2019, 12:12 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Yes, I was referring to M3/M4 sales.

I believe the coupe E46's and E9X's outsold their sedan counterparts as well, be it ///M or non-///M.
E92 M3 outsold the E92 M3, yes. As you know, there was no E46 M3 sedan.

But the 3 Series? A little OT, and I don't have the data to look at, but I'm all but certain that the coupe has never outsold the sedan. Maybe in the early generations (especially the E30, where the sedan was first introduced), but it was definitely not the case for the E46, E9x, or F3x.

It is important to remember that, in todays's automotive market, coupe sales make up a tiny fraction of all car sales - less than 5% of the total market. It's true that for performance vehicles that percentage is considerably higher, but high performance sedans are popular for the same reason sedans in general are popular - they generally offer more versatility than a two-door.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
In most cases you and mkoesel make an argument that has merit, but even speaking generally, BMW midsized coupes outsell sedans.
Like I say, that's not really the case. In fact, you can see this easily by looking at sales data now that the sedans are even numbered. Well, you still have to dig a little since the Gran Coupes throw a wrench into the works.

Here's an indicator (a little outdated, yes) of how 4 Series coupe, convertible, and GC sales split:

https://www.motor1.com/news/143701/b...-series-coupe/

If you look at numbers, the 4 Series has only rarely outsold the 3 Series, and from the above we can rightly assume that was due to the Gran Coupe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Prior to the F8X, the E9X M3 sedan hit the market before the coupe did, and the coupe stayed on the market after the sedan was retired, BUT.....mere availability doesn't totally account for the staggering difference in the sales numbers. We're talking 45,000 coupes sold versus 10,000 sedans sold. That is not a mere availability phenomena. That's evidence of a popularity difference.
Like I said earlier, not traditionally a regularly occurring model, the M3 sedan has not had the chance to establish momentum. That's changed now, with the F80 really picking up, and we should expect it to continue with the G80.
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      12-09-2019, 12:26 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Like I said earlier, not being a regularly occurring model, the M3 sedan has not had the chance to establish momentum. That's changed now, with the F80 really picking up, and we should expect that to continue with the G80.
It'll be interesting to see how close they are, and if the overall sales predictions in the thread linked below hold true.

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=992016
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      12-09-2019, 12:41 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
It'll be interesting to see how close they are, and if the overall sales predictions in the thread linked below hold true.


https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=992016
I like this quote:

"My feeling right now is that the F80 M3 is going to more than triple the sales of the E90 M3 while the M4 sales will stay relatively flat."

Low and behold, it did just that. Smart guy, whoever predicted that.

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1551939

We'll soon see what happens with the M4. I suspect that part of the quote will prove to be less accurate. I don't remember how many E92 M3s were sold, but I suspect that F82 numbers will be well over 50K and I know the E92 M3 didn't get near that.
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      12-09-2019, 12:48 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
We'll soon see what happens with the M4. I suspect that part of the quote will prove to be less accurate. I don't remember how many E92 M3s were sold, but I suspect that F82 numbers will be well over 50K and I know the E92 M3 didn't get near that.
The E92 M3 sold about 40,000 units.

https://www.m3post.com/forums/attach...5&d=1376330183

The coupe won significantly for that generation.
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      12-09-2019, 12:53 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
The E92 M3 sold about 40,000 units.
So, I figure they'll post an increase of 30% to 50% for the F82. Not really flat, but nevertheless modest when compared to the increase the sedan saw.

Quote:
The coupe won significantly for that generation.
Yep.

For the the G8x generation, here's what I expect:

- Overall sales fall compared to the F8x generation due to the shift to SUVs, and in particular the introduction of the X3/X4 M.

- Over the years where they are both available (so 2021 through 2025), the M3 will easily outsell the M4 coupe.
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