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      11-13-2020, 02:07 PM   #1
Salespunk
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M3 is the new M5?

So M3 is the New M5?
If you compare the sizes of current vehicles vs those fond memories of previous versions they have truly moved everything up a category now.

E30 M3 >>> F87 M2
E39 M5 >>> G80 M3
7 Series >>> F90 M5

Even the inflation adjusted pricing aligns as well. What is unfortunate is that weight has gone well beyond the old models due to both regulations and consumers increasing desire for superfluous luxury items as well like soft close doors, etc.

I would have been really interested in an F90 M5 CS if they had gotten aggressive about weight loss and even the G80 sounds like it has added the Covid 200 now. A truly light weight G80 four door (sub 3400 lbs) would be my dream, but I don't think many share my vision of a de-contented family hauler. I think a GT3esque four door could be a category killer, but what do I know?
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      11-13-2020, 02:16 PM   #2
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The M3 has grown in every way but it has kept one foot on the track and one foot on the street. So size wise your analysis is sound but not purpose wise. An F80 and E39 are not really comparable in purpose. The M5 has remained the luxury business missile it was conceived as which the F80 can’t properly deliver and the F80 can take a track day with more ease than any M5 before it.

Purpose has remained the same while size has shifted one level.

Will the G8X put the M3 firmly in the M5 purpose? Not likely.
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      11-13-2020, 02:33 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salespunk View Post
So M3 is the New M5?
If you compare the sizes of current vehicles vs those fond memories of previous versions they have truly moved everything up a category now.

E46 M3 >>> F87 M2
E39 M5 >>> G80 M3
7 Series >>> F90 M5

Even the inflation adjusted pricing aligns as well. What is unfortunate is that weight has gone well beyond the old models due to both regulations and consumers increasing desire for superfluous luxury items as well like soft close doors, etc.

I would have been really interested in an F90 M5 CS if they had gotten aggressive about weight loss and even the G80 sounds like it has added the Covid 200 now. A truly light weight G80 four door (sub 3400 lbs) would be my dream, but I don't think many share my vision of a de-contented family hauler. I think a GT3esque four door could be a category killer, but what do I know?
Fixed that for you .

The E30 was way smaller in size than the M2. Even the E39 is smaller than the G80. The G80 slots between the E39 and E60.
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Last edited by CanAutM3; 11-13-2020 at 03:52 PM..
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      11-13-2020, 03:25 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salespunk View Post
So M3 is the New M5?
If you compare the sizes of current vehicles vs those fond memories of previous versions they have truly moved everything up a category now.

E30 M3 >>> F87 M2
E39 M5 >>> G80 M3
7 Series >>> F90 M5

Even the inflation adjusted pricing aligns as well. What is unfortunate is that weight has gone well beyond the old models due to both regulations and consumers increasing desire for superfluous luxury items as well like soft close doors, etc.

I would have been really interested in an F90 M5 CS if they had gotten aggressive about weight loss and even the G80 sounds like it has added the Covid 200 now. A truly light weight G80 four door (sub 3400 lbs) would be my dream, but I don't think many share my vision of a de-contented family hauler. I think a GT3esque four door could be a category killer, but what do I know?
I hate these comparisons... especially when it comes to size or weight. the primary fallacy is that an arbitrary point in time is picked out as "this is when things were right" or "this is the standard"

If you compare the E46 to the e12 5 series you will see the same size relationship... or compare an e39 m5 to the 1933 303, the e39 is downright giagantic luxobarge car with such useless weight gaining technology as electric start. Any true enthusiast wants to crank their motors by hand in trade for a bit less weight over the front end.

Point being, as noted above, the car is designed and built to serve a specific mission and the M3
for 2020 is going to be different than the M3 for 1999 but still the M3
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      11-13-2020, 05:14 PM   #5
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Size-wise, this tends to be the case with long-running models like the M3 - tons of people have compared the M2 with the E46 before.

But as another person here said, the purpose will still be the same as ever. For sure, the G80 will be a driver's machine much like its predecessors.
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      11-14-2020, 12:02 AM   #6
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I hear on this forum consistently that these cars are too heavy. 95% of consumers that buy these cars are going to use them for daily commute and have their loved ones beside them . Why would I want to be in a car thats unsafe because I have reduced weight just to get .02 seconds faster time. Most of the people even on this forum can't or won't spend 80k plus to track a car. Buy a e90 M car, strip it down and take it to the track. Hell, everyone says this has better steering. It amazes me how much we bitch and moan about stuff but thats what forums are for.
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      11-14-2020, 12:22 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyndi335I View Post
I hear on this forum consistently that these cars are too heavy. 95% of consumers that buy these cars are going to use them for daily commute and have their loved ones beside them . Why would I want to be in a car thats unsafe because I have reduced weight just to get .02 seconds faster time. Most of the people even on this forum can't or won't spend 80k plus to track a car. Buy a e90 M car, strip it down and take it to the track. Hell, everyone says this has better steering. It amazes me how much we bitch and moan about stuff but thats what forums are for.
:
You're in the wrong forum, this is the M3 forum. But yes you got the right cars, X5 and 750. Get the X8.
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      11-14-2020, 06:46 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AR_Motorwerkz View Post
Size-wise, this tends to be the case with long-running models like the M3 - tons of people have compared the M2 with the E46 before.

But as another person here said, the purpose will still be the same as ever. For sure, the G80 will be a driver's machine much like its predecessors.
Based on the inormation emphasized in the press releases and the marketing videos, it does seem they have changed the M3/4's "purpose" and target audience.
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      11-14-2020, 10:38 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AR_Motorwerkz View Post
Size-wise, this tends to be the case with long-running models like the M3 - tons of people have compared the M2 with the E46 before.

But as another person here said, the purpose will still be the same as ever. For sure, the G80 will be a driver's machine much like its predecessors.
The E39 or even E28 M5 was the family man's race car. Something you could put your friends in the back seat going to dinner, but still challenge super cars on the weekend. Sure it was $100K in today's terms, but it replaced two cars.

The M5 is now an incredibly capable luxury car really pointed at people who have 3+ cars in their driveway.

The E30 M3's were race car shells with a few extras that were simply built to satisfy a racing regulation. The E36 was more narrowly focused as well, but not as narrow as the E30.

The M3 has replaced the M5 in purpose as a dual use car. Traffic, long distances, etc are very comfortable in the G80. Cost is going to be very close to $100K for the average build now. There are no compromises with the M3 other than weight. This is not about lap times it is about driving feel. A heavy fast car feels significantly different from a light fast car that performs the same.

Personally I would love to see a lightweight version of the G80 with reduced sound deadening, fewer luxury options, etc. Not many/any true lightweight options out there for performance 4 door cars. Seems to me an untapped market. A decontented M3 for the same price as a standard M3 would be awesome. The CS model as BMW is doing it right now is not providing the right value.
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      11-14-2020, 06:23 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bm323 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyndi335I View Post
I hear on this forum consistently that these cars are too heavy. 95% of consumers that buy these cars are going to use them for daily commute and have their loved ones beside them . Why would I want to be in a car thats unsafe because I have reduced weight just to get .02 seconds faster time. Most of the people even on this forum can't or won't spend 80k plus to track a car. Buy a e90 M car, strip it down and take it to the track. Hell, everyone says this has better steering. It amazes me how much we bitch and moan about stuff but thats what forums are for.
:
You're in the wrong forum, this is the M3 forum. But yes you got the right cars, X5 and 750. Get the X8.
lol... no way. It's only my wife and I now so I don't need that much space. My wife is actually thinking of getting rid of the X5 and maybe getting a x3 or GLC300.
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      11-14-2020, 08:29 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyndi335I View Post
I hear on this forum consistently that these cars are too heavy. 95% of consumers that buy these cars are going to use them for daily commute and have their loved ones beside them . Why would I want to be in a car thats unsafe because I have reduced weight just to get .02 seconds faster time. Most of the people even on this forum can't or won't spend 80k plus to track a car. Buy a e90 M car, strip it down and take it to the track. Hell, everyone says this has better steering. It amazes me how much we bitch and moan about stuff but thats what forums are for.
:
Because big and heavy cars are boring. Get an X7.
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      11-14-2020, 11:17 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hegge View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyndi335I View Post
I hear on this forum consistently that these cars are too heavy. 95% of consumers that buy these cars are going to use them for daily commute and have their loved ones beside them . Why would I want to be in a car thats unsafe because I have reduced weight just to get .02 seconds faster time. Most of the people even on this forum can't or won't spend 80k plus to track a car. Buy a e90 M car, strip it down and take it to the track. Hell, everyone says this has better steering. It amazes me how much we bitch and moan about stuff but thats what forums are for.
:
Because big and heavy cars are boring. Get an X7.
No thanks, I own two X5's but the M5 will do.
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      11-14-2020, 11:53 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salespunk View Post
So M3 is the New M5?
If you compare the sizes of current vehicles vs those fond memories of previous versions they have truly moved everything up a category now.

E30 M3 >>> F87 M2
E39 M5 >>> G80 M3
7 Series >>> F90 M5

Even the inflation adjusted pricing aligns as well. What is unfortunate is that weight has gone well beyond the old models due to both regulations and consumers increasing desire for superfluous luxury items as well like soft close doors, etc.

I would have been really interested in an F90 M5 CS if they had gotten aggressive about weight loss and even the G80 sounds like it has added the Covid 200 now. A truly light weight G80 four door (sub 3400 lbs) would be my dream, but I don't think many share my vision of a de-contented family hauler. I think a GT3esque four door could be a category killer, but what do I know?
The F90 M5 and M5 comp are basically identical, 16 HP doesn't do much, and a tune makes them equal anyways.
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      11-15-2020, 12:27 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Padfan9 View Post
The F90 M5 and M5 comp are basically identical, 16 HP doesn't do much, and a tune makes them equal anyways.
From what I gather, the are also suspension hardware differences between non comp and base.
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      11-19-2020, 02:47 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
From what I gather, the are also suspension hardware differences between non comp and base.
That is correct on the suspension differences. For most buyers the Comp is a waste of money. the HP difference is zero consequence and the car rides firmer than the standard M5 with no benefit on the street.

When I said CS, that is a new model about to be released by BMW in the M5 line. Similar to the M3 CS, carbon buckets and some other lightweight flash. They have not done nearly as much as they could have from the weight perspective on the M5 CS which is what I was pointing to as a disappointment.

IMO the M5 is lost in the middle from a positioning standpoint. Too heavy for the track and too fast to really enjoy on the street. This is actually a problem for most new performance street vehicles now.
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      11-19-2020, 03:48 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salespunk View Post
IMO the M5 is lost in the middle from a positioning standpoint. Too heavy for the track and too fast to really enjoy on the street. This is actually a problem for most new performance street vehicles now.
I get what you are saying but it hasn't hurt sales of the pony cars especially the Challenger (Chrysler sells 60k annually) which only does one thing well and that's going fast in a straight line. The reality is that few owners of performance cars track their cars so something that's mid-size or larger (Americans love big vehicles) and extremely fast in a straight line will probably satisfy more people than a slow car that handles really well like a BRZ.
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      11-20-2020, 08:13 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
I get what you are saying but it hasn't hurt sales of the pony cars especially the Challenger (Chrysler sells 60k annually) which only does one thing well and that's going fast in a straight line. The reality is that few owners of performance cars track their cars so something that's mid-size or larger (Americans love big vehicles) and extremely fast in a straight line will probably satisfy more people than a slow car that handles really well like a BRZ.
Great handling with sufficient power is what has traditionally defined ///M cars though.
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      11-20-2020, 08:39 AM   #18
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Superfluous? You will have to pry the seat massagers in my M5 out of my cold dead hands.
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      11-20-2020, 01:06 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Great handling with sufficient power is what has traditionally defined ///M cars though.
What's sufficient power today though? Times have changed. If you are selling a car that has a cost of over $100k it better be packing heat relative to other cars in it's price range or it will be left for dead.
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      11-20-2020, 02:11 PM   #20
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What's sufficient power today though? Times have changed. If you are selling a car that has a cost of over $100k it better be packing heat relative to other cars in it's price range or it will be left for dead.
By sufficient power I meant within a competitive margin for a given era. ///M cars were rarely the fastest in a straight line relative to their competition, but most of the time, they were the fastest around a track.
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      11-20-2020, 04:17 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
By sufficient power I meant within a competitive margin for a given era. ///M cars were rarely the fastest in a straight line relative to their competition, but most of the time, they were the fastest around a track.
That is still the case now isn't it? The F80 M3 Comp has 444 hp, less than the C63S (503 hp) and equivalent to the RS5 (but RS5 has AWD, so probably better at launches), but the F80 was better around a track.

I expect this to hold with the next gen C63S and RS5 being more powerful than the G80.
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      11-20-2020, 10:12 PM   #22
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Some forget the great handling priority/aspect. A heavy car does not have great handling although it is fast. With the G80/82 as it is, just get the faster M5. Why get the G80/82?

Just wait for the local reviews by car critics after the reviews from paid for overseas itinerary. Most of the reviews by soon to be early owners will also not be objective, btw
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