[Jimjamz]

Is it just me or is BMW morphing into a heavy, big grilled, AWD copy cat of Audi? I'd be interested to know what people consider are its remaining differentiations?

[solstice]

Originally Posted by Jimjamz

Is it just me or is BMW morphing into a heavy, big grilled, AWD copy cat of Audi? I'd be interested to know what people thing are its continuing differentiations?

The superior motors, ergonomics and balance of an RWD chassis as it always has been. Nothing has changed in this equation. Audi has had the one advantage of traction but that is now gone making the Audi even more irrelevant.

[DecemberStorm]

the G80 grill is still smaller in size than audi ... problem is bmw split it down the middle and so it looks like fat nostrils from certain angles. I think differentiation still comes down to powertrain lead that BMW enjoys. Current Audi cars suffer from serious transmission and throttle lag issues that are massive buzzkill. Their RS cars also feel neutered maybe on purpose to save room for Porsche. Just check out any comparison videos on the new RS6/7, lagging the older F90 M5 and W213 E63. Also we whine about weight here, the new RS7 is over 4900lb!!!

im curious what audi would do in the B10 gen RS4/5 cars. Rumor is it's gonna be a plug-in hybrid, my money is on the facelift Panamera 2.9TT PHEV pushing 550hp, but with a ZF8A instead of a DCT

I'm surprised they didn't add any power to the facelift B9 RS5, which has to soldier on for 3 years and is heavily outgunned. Now that BMW and MB will both have AWD in the segment it's looking rather mundane.

[Saturatedfat]

DecemberStorm is pretty spot on here. I don't think they offer much vs competition especially with the M3 offering AWD now. The S-line is a little different as the S4/S5 is still pretty nice price wise vs competitors. The 4/5 refresh look nice but powertrain still lacks a bit.

I was considering the RS5 but it really doesn't offer enough for what you pay.

[heavyD^2]

Nothing's changed. If you want a fast and safe handling German car, the Audi with unbalanced, nose heavy chassis, and tendency to understeer is your car. If you want a more exciting, and fun to drive German car, BMW offers a comparable balanced vehicle that has a tendency to oversteer.

[evanescent03]

Originally Posted by Jimjamz

Is it just me or is BMW morphing into a heavy, big grilled, AWD copy cat of Audi? I'd be interested to know what people consider are its remaining differentiations?

RWD option, manual transmission option and increased track focus are the main differentiators.

[frankiebones]

It's just you.

[pikkagtr]

Fwd biased understeery haldex
Vs.
Rwd biased MxDrive with Rear drive only selectable mode

Pretty big difference in my book

[AR_Motorwerkz]

Audis are great, but they're nose-heavy. I'm sure the new M3/M4 is still gonna be a great car to drive.

[Jimjamz]

These are pretty compelling reasons in BM's favour. Let's hope they keep the driving experience front of mind now that the specs look pretty similar on paper - it sounds like the key differentiator.

[khanyam4]

These new G's will do just fine

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by Jimjamz

These are pretty compelling reasons in BM's favour. Let's hope they keep the driving experience front of mind now that the specs look pretty similar on paper - it sounds like the key differentiator.

I believe we forget here that the battle of the near future will be fought with EVs like the i4 M and e-Tron RS/GT. I have the impression that the window of opportunity for the G8x versus RS 4/5 as dinosaurs of the past is already vanishing while we speak. Much of the virtues BMW has vs Audi, because of architectural or component based choices, will perish soon.

Just consider how Tesla was able to rank between serious drivers' cars just out of the blue! Change now with the upcoming generation is not incremental, but disruptive.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by KoenG

I believe we forget here that the battle of the near future will be fought with EVs like the i4 M and e-Tron RS/GT. I have the impression that the window of opportunity for the G8x versus RS 4/5 as dinosaurs of the past is already vanishing while we speak. Much of the virtues BMW has vs Audi, because of architectural or component based choices, will perish soon.

Just consider how Tesla was able to rank between serious drivers' cars just out of the blue! Change now with the upcoming generation is not incremental, but disruptive.

100% agree. We are at the very end of the era where mechanical in-house superiority by brands as BMW and Porsche has ruled the enthusiast roost. Better not waste it on an Audi

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by solstice

100% agree. We are at the very end of the era where mechanical in-house superiority by brands as BMW and Porsche has ruled the enthusiast roost. Better not waste it on an Audi

LOL. What I meant was that an EV inherits nothing of his ICE predecessors in weight/its weight distribution front-rear/its center of gravity height/steering feel or any of the historical specifications. It's all clean slate in which it's probably hard for BMW to fight Audi since they have free access to all goodies they already pack for the Porsche Taycan. Taycan, which seems to be a giant slayer when I can believe the tests!

When you compare G8x with the current RS generation, yes, of course, the BMW is probably the more purist drivers' car, like it always was.

[Karmic Man]

Originally Posted by KoenG

I believe we forget here that the battle of the near future will be fought with EVs like the i4 M and e-Tron RS/GT. I have the impression that the window of opportunity for the G8x versus RS 4/5 as dinosaurs of the past is already vanishing while we speak. Much of the virtues BMW has vs Audi, because of architectural or component based choices, will perish soon.

Just consider how Tesla was able to rank between serious drivers' cars just out of the blue! Change now with the upcoming generation is not incremental, but disruptive.

Not really if track performance is taken into account. Which is what the M, RS cars are really about.

Batteries are still too heavy on a sports car built for handling, can easily overheats and have limited range during 'battle mode'

https://thedriven.io/2020/08/14/pors...ng-north-loop/

[solstice]

Originally Posted by KoenG

LOL. What I meant was that an EV inherits nothing of his ICE predecessors in weight/its weight distribution front-rear/its center of gravity height/steering feel or any of the historical specifications. It's all clean slate in which it's probably hard for BMW to fight Audi since they have free access to all goodies they already pack for the Porsche Taycan. Taycan, which seems to be a giant slayer when I can believe the tests!

When you compare G8x with the current RS generation, yes, of course, the BMW is probably the more purist drivers' car, like it always was.

We are in agreement, once the ICE era is over there will be a reset where the current enthusiast status of brands will need to be reconfirmed and some might fail to keep their position and distance to competitors.

BMW lean heavily on their ICE engines. Without them they will face new challenges.

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by Karmic Man

Not really if track performance is taken into account. Which is what the M, RS cars are really about.

I never had that impression. To my interpretation, no M, RS is ready for endurance circuit racing. They are suited at best to go for a few hotlaps.

M, RS have to provide daily practicality and usability in normal traffic whilst providing an exquisite feel/hint of performance and fine control.

[ASAP]

I said this about 5 years ago but it would appear Audi was always way ahead of the game...

Notice the E63s and the M5 are now what the RS7 was 5 years ago... they are all AWD and Automatic heavy sedans. It used to be the M5 had a DCT and was RWD. The E63s was RWD and Auto... there was something there to always differentiate them a bit... now you pretty much choose based on brand and what you prefer. The general architecture is identical...

Oh and M3 and C63? Well that is the RS5 of about 6 years ago w a newer turbo engine... granted they are both better, newer and are probably more fun but no one can deny that Audi had the architecture down first. The M3 just has the saving grace that it can be had in RWD still... As far as looks... in the modern era, Audi was first with the big grills. Virtual Cockpit? Again Audi was first.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by pikkagtr

Fwd biased understeery haldex
Vs.
Rwd biased MxDrive with Rear drive only selectable mode

Pretty big difference in my book

Haldex applies only to the RS3...

[pikkagtr]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Haldex applies only to the RS3...

From : https://carbuzz.com/features/5-impro...-r-back-on-top


Our final improvement deals with the Golf R's 4 Motion all-wheel-drive system. The Golf R uses a Haldex AWD system, which is shared across the VW and Audi lineups. Unlike some more modern AWD systems, the Haldex system sends power to the front wheels by default, then applies up to 50% of the power to the rear wheels. This means the Golf R is actually FWD during most driving situations. Competitors like the Focus RS can send up to 70% of the power to the rear wheels with drift mode. This creates an ability to slide the car around like a RWD car, which isn't really possible in the Golf R. Volkswagen should consider a more RWD-biased AWD to make the Golf R more exciting to drive.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Haldex applies only to the RS3...

...and R8. Albeit in the R8 it is pointing in the right direction

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by pikkagtr

From : https://carbuzz.com/features/5-impro...-r-back-on-top


Our final improvement deals with the Golf R's 4 Motion all-wheel-drive system. The Golf R uses a Haldex AWD system, which is shared across the VW and Audi lineups. Unlike some more modern AWD systems, the Haldex system sends power to the front wheels by default, then applies up to 50% of the power to the rear wheels. This means the Golf R is actually FWD during most driving situations. Competitors like the Focus RS can send up to 70% of the power to the rear wheels with drift mode. This creates an ability to slide the car around like a RWD car, which isn't really possible in the Golf R. Volkswagen should consider a more RWD-biased AWD to make the Golf R more exciting to drive.

You cannot trust everything you read on the internet . Audi only uses the Haldex system in their transverse engine chassis. All longitudinal engine chassis still use the proven and true torsen Quattro system (except for the R8, but the R8 is basically a RWD with the Haldex sending power to the front).

https://www.audi.com/en/experience-a...y/quattro.html