[Sy546]

Originally Posted by wesleyan92

None of the luxury OEMs breakout the model variants so the best extension of sales intelligence will be through these macro numbers. These numbers provide you enough data point to gauge sales popularity of the 3 series vs. the CT4 platforms.

So should we break out Honda accord vs 3 series numbers? Sales don’t mean much.

It’s MUCH harder to find a 4/5 BW for msrp than any G8x. Most are still going for above msrp. So what does that tell you about demand?

I own 3 different gens of M3s and have driven every gen extensively besides the e30. How a car enthusiast can’t appreciate a BW is kind of surprising. If you are a true enthusiast and not a brand fan boy, you would appreciate how awesome the BWs are. An e9x & e46 m3 are both a shit ton slower than any f80/g80 but they are still some of the most fun cars to drive.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Sy546

Please don’t bring up an e46 m3 or e9x m3 when it comes to a reliability argument. Only one brand considers rod bearings maintenance

And yet, what I wrote is true. Do you have another example of a long term test between those manufacturers where the opposite happened?
I didn't think so.

The E9X indeed has rod bearing issues -I wrote the DIY for the E46 and the E9X- but somehow it managed to not blow up when brand new in the long term test. More than can be said for two Corvettes and the Blackwing V8!

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Sy546

So should we break out Honda accord vs 3 series numbers? Sales don’t mean much.

It’s MUCH harder to find a 4/5 BW for msrp than any G8x. Most are still going for above msrp. So what does that tell you about demand?

I own 3 different gens of M3s and have driven every gen extensively besides the e30. How a car enthusiast can’t appreciate a BW is kind of surprising. If you are a true enthusiast and not a brand fan boy, you would appreciate how awesome the BWs are. An e9x & e46 m3 are both a shit ton slower than any f80/g80 but they are still some of the most fun cars to drive.

Being a car enthusiast doesn’t mandate that we appreciate every car. Some cars just will/do not resonate with a person at all. I love cars, but I could care less about classics. Does that make me less of an enthusiast???

[Blue Angel]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Being a car enthusiast doesn’t mandate that we appreciate every car. Some cars just will/do not resonate with a person at all. I love cars, but I could care less about classics. Does that make me less of an enthusiast???

If you consider the E90 M3 a classic, then yes, you are less of an enthusiast. To think the only cars worth being excited about are the newest ones means you are leaving out ALL of the best looking, best sounding, most engaging and most involving cars. All of them.

Cars keep getting faster, but there’s a lot more collective automotive nirvana in the past than there is in present day.

[FISH22]

The 4BW is meh. Like mentioned earlier in the thread, it is all about the 5BW. I went G80 Comp to manual 5BW, and I’m not looking back.

A car I wish everyone could experience (has to be a manual of course).

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Blue Angel

If you consider the E90 M3 a classic, then yes, you are less of an enthusiast. To think the only cars worth being excited about are the newest ones means you are leaving out ALL of the best looking, best sounding, most engaging and most involving cars. All of them.

Cars keep getting faster, but there’s a lot more collective automotive nirvana in the past than there is in present day.

You aren't in any place to judge who is or isn't an enthusiast because we don't fit YOUR subjective criteria of what an enthusiast is or what an enthusiast should/shouldn't like. I never said the ONLY cars worth getting excited about were newer cars. My point in mentioning true classics is because they do nothing for me, but many car enthusiasts love them, yet, don't care for newer cars at all. Does that make them less of a "car enthusiast" because they don't appreciate nor care about the engineering behind a Bugatti? No, it doesn't. We like what we like and preferences are preferences.

[Blue Angel]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

You aren't in any place to judge who is or isn't an enthusiast because we don't fit YOUR subjective criteria of what an enthusiast is or what an enthusiast should/shouldn't like. I never said the ONLY cars worth getting excited about were newer cars. My point in mentioning true classics is because they do nothing for me, but many car enthusiasts love them, yet, don't care for newer cars at all. Does that make them less of a "car enthusiast" because they don't appreciate nor care about the engineering behind a Bugatti? No, it doesn't. We like what we like and preferences are preferences.

You asked.

[Sy546]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Being a car enthusiast doesn’t mandate that we appreciate every car. Some cars just will/do not resonate with a person at all. I love cars, but I could care less about classics. Does that make me less of an enthusiast???

It makes you less of an enthusiast because you don't like a certain car bc of only a badge. That's the issue.

I see a ton of people who buy bmws and know absolutely nothing about the car besides it's an "M".

And not liking a classic is different. This is the same category of car in the same generation. I never said you had to buy it, but not appreciating a car that is the exact type of car as the car you supposedly love, is pretty sad. Especially one that arguably is as fun or more fun to drive.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Sy546

It makes you less of an enthusiast because you don't like a certain car bc of only a badge. That's the issue.

I see a ton of people who buy bmws and know absolutely nothing about the car besides it's an "M".

And not liking a classic is different. This is the same category of car in the same generation. I never said you had to buy it, but not appreciating a car that is the exact type of car as the car you supposedly love, is pretty sad. Especially one that arguably is as fun or more fun to drive.

What the hell are you talking about? Nobody said anything about badges (…at least I never did). Even if an enthusiast didn’t like American cars, as an example, that is a preference. We all have preferences. We like certain foods, women, etc. The argument being made is basically the equivalent of “If you don’t find [insert color/ethnicity] women attractive, you’re a racist and/or prejudiced! You should find ALL women beautiful because they are women.”

[Tacoma]

The disagreements here may be people not differentiating car enthusiast from driving enthusiast.

Car enthusiasts come in all colors. Some may enjoy the history of brands, love cars from classics up to modern vehicles of some or all makes, etc. They just love cars in general. Others are more particular may be fans of specific brands like BMW and Porsche but not Cadillac or Lexus. But no matter your preferences, all are car enthusiasts in a different way.

Driving enthusiasts' preference skew heavily towards the driving aspects of cars such as steering response/feel, road connection/isolation, weight, cornering, manual transmission, etc. They care less about brand or looks and care more (or only) about the way a car drives and feels. Driving enthusiasts are car enthusiasts but not vice versa.

So if you regularly read this forum, you're very likely a car enthusiast. If you think Cadillac should be commended for the BW delivering on the "Ultimate Driving Machine" experience better than recent BMW's, then that's probably more of a driving enthusiast's take.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Tacoma

The disagreements here may be people not differentiating car enthusiast from driving enthusiast.

Car enthusiasts come in all colors. Some may enjoy the history of brands, love cars from classics up to modern vehicles of some or all makes, etc. They just love cars in general. Others are more particular may be fans of specific brands like BMW and Porsche but not Cadillac or Lexus. But no matter your preferences, all are car enthusiasts in a different way.

Driving enthusiasts' preference skew heavily towards the driving aspects of cars such as steering response/feel, road connection/isolation, weight, cornering, manual transmission, etc. They care less about brand or looks and care more (or only) about the way a car drives and feels. Driving enthusiasts are car enthusiasts but not vice versa.

So if you regularly read this forum, you're very likely a car enthusiast. If you think Cadillac should be commended for the BW delivering on the "Ultimate Driving Machine" experience better than recent BMW's, then that's probably more of a driving enthusiast's take.

This is a fair assessment and I largely agree (…even with your finer points). I do still believe that even an enthusiast that leans towards driving can still not like every performance product out there and liking every product out there isn’t a prerequisite to qualify as a driving enthusiast.

[strohw]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

This is a fair assessment and I largely agree (…even with your finer points). I do still believe that even an enthusiast that leans towards driving can still not like every performance product out there and liking every product out there isn’t a prerequisite to qualify as a driving enthusiast.

I don't think his assessment was applying an all or nothing mentality.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by strohw

I don't think his assessment was applying an all or nothing mentality.

I wasn’t referring to HIS assessment, but rather, some that came before it.

[565565]

Well I got my own internal comparison going between S58 vs Blackwing. Had both for about 14 months so far, I'll let you guys know which one explodes first.







Had an order for a CT5 V Blackwing, didn't know when that order would ever come so placed an order for a M3C xdrive as a 2nd choice, suddenly the Blackwing order got picked up, so I ordered an X3M comp for the wife instead (she insisted on an SUV).

[Casone238]

As I shared earlier my brother had the CTS-V coupe, followed by the ATS-V now owns a Trackhawk. Prior he was a BMW enthusiast, he owned a E39 & Benz CLK AMG. Through out the years of his ownership and experience maintaining it, he wouldn’t go down that road again. He loves the car but doesn’t want pay the premium/ import cost for parts. Which I understand, plus added the fact that his best friend who is a mechanic specializes on American cars.

For me that doesn’t apply because it’s rare I keep a car longer then 3 years. I lease and I’m on to the next. He likes to own and keeps the car at least 5 yrs and he already said he’s not getting rid of the trackhawk until it dead due to the dying breed of the V8s.

All that to say if my brother was in the thread he would be defending the black wing because GM provided a comparable driving experience to what bmw offered in there M cars for a cheaper price point and cheaper to maintain.

[kassad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHkITV_QZ9w

Lap times:
G87 M2, Cup 2, automatic: 1:11.19
RS3, Trofeo R, automatic: 1:11.93
CT4 BW, PS4s, manual: 1:12.32
F87 M2 comp, PS4s, manual: 1:13.53

TLDW: "very, very, very good car. very good."
"If i can get one for equivalent pricing to OG M2... hand on heart, I will swap for one (CT4)"

I pick mine up this week

[onefasteuro]

I cross shopped the BW. I always had BMW & somehow always was interested in the V’s since the old school CTS-V.

Had a BW in order, it got here, and after the poor experience with the dealer I bailed out and went back to BMW. Not regretting my G80 purchase at all, probably was the better choice for me in the long run, but from a drivers standpoint, the BW ticked a lot of boxes. 2 solid choices in that video.

[moomeacow]

reviving an old thread... I'm about to pull the trigger on new BW imsa edition, they are discounting it heavily msrp 88k to 71k. i don't really test drive my cars before I buy them i just negotiate over the phone get a price and buy it. Same thing I did with the m3 (f80) . every review says the manual trans is better in the BW + the cheaper price, keeping long term so reliability worries, don't want to pay an arm and a leg to fix it, hence my leaning towards BW. I like the front more of the BW the g80 front is ugly but then the BW back is ugly and the g80 back is nice lol. for performance I really don't give 2 shits if g80 is .5 sec faster to 60 or 2 seconds faster in a quarter mile. I just want something decently quick and comfortable for dailying, and hopefully a sturdy interior. my f80 had this rattle that i could never find drove me nuts.

just my 2 cents.