[02M3ForMe]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

I have really struggled trying to put my finger on this 'RAW versus REFINED' topic when it comes to the G80C . . . I think I have finally come to terms with the topic.

To be clear, when I speak of refined, I am not referring to comfort features or technology. The G80C cabin is great, and I use very little of the technology available. The F87C cabin was pretty simple, yet it too had everything and much more than I needed or ever used.

When I speak of refinement, I am talking about PERFORMANCE. On the one hand, the G80C is unquestionably next level engineering. S58 is an absolute beast. ZF8 is every bit as capable and enjoyable with the S58 as DCT was in the F87C; suspension and handling superb . . . the G80C is a performer!!!

So, what it this overriding sense of 'refinement' I have garnered when it comes to the G80C?

It became apparent to me yesterday during some highly spirited backroad driving. During the excursion I was able to really push the G80C. Not talking 9/10th's stuff some might achieve on the track . . . but much more than the typical spirited daily driving.

What I concluded is the G80C is such a capable vehicle that, even during my typical spirited daily driving, I rarely approach the limits of its capabilities. I have been constantly aware of its capabilities yet, at the same time, frustrated by my inability to access them . . . when I did have access - as was the case yesterday - it was like letting a cheetah out its cage. Both the driver and the car were in their glory.

Until yesterday, not really knowing the source of my frustration, I resorted to using the term 'refined' to express my frustration. I now feel the term 'CONFINED' is more appropriate than 'refined' in describing the G80C.

Honestly, I almost feel like a weight, of sorts, has been lifted off my shoulders in identifying what it was that has been bothering me . . . in a weird way, I am more satisfied with my overall driving experience in knowing. I just need to find more opportunities to let this cheetah out of its cage.

///AVM

Well put.

Given that this is the very latest generation of BMW M engineering, we're enjoying a high level of performance further down market than is historically typical. I can't think of another car that delivers this level of overall performance that isn't either loud/raucous or exotic. Excluding electric cars, the lack of drama ("refinement") paired with this kind of handling capability and power is new to the market. Older cars that performed like this did things at lower speeds to remind you of what they are. With the G8x, your only clue is when you're actively extracting more and more G.

[TrentMeister]

The confinement actually bugs me a little.

When people ask me "how do you like it?" I find myself telling people " it's honestly too fast".

The performance threshold is so high that I find myself breaking the law quite a bit more often than in my M2c.

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by TrentMeister

The confinement actually bugs me a little.

When people ask me "how do you like it?" I find myself telling people " it's honestly too fast".

The performance threshold is so high that I find myself breaking the law quite a bit more often than in my M2c.

TrentMeister

I know exactly what you mean and I do my best to relate, but words can let me down.

I do not want to suggest I do not like the G80C because that is FAR from the truth . . . it is an amazing piece of performance engineering . . . saying it is almost too good is probably accurate.

At the end of the day, I have no doubt you and many others know what I am trying to relate . . .

///AVM

[vetteflier]

Read a review of the new Turbo S. They criticized it as "being too perfect..." In a few years, I don't think anyone will be using terms like that to describe the new EVs only car world. Makes us appreciate what we have now all the more.

[jonahk]

Originally Posted by TrentMeister

The confinement actually bugs me a little.

When people ask me "how do you like it?" I find myself telling people " it's honestly too fast".

The performance threshold is so high that I find myself breaking the law quite a bit more often than in my M2c.

This sums up my feelings as well. I've had the good fortune to get some wheel time in many "fast" cars, and they always feel fast due some specific circumstance such as sound, engine vibration, or some other form of general pomp and ceremony. My F87 I knew when I was going fast because it was a generally violent experience between the brutal DCT shifts and the exhaust noise. The Turbo S I drove two weeks ago felt fast because the engine screams at you.

My G80 M3 builds speed so incredibly fast, and so quietly, and with little to no fanfare in any of those physical sensations, that it's caught me off guard multiple times. Last week, I was stuck behind a CRV driving 5 under in the left lane, so I went to pass them on the right (I know, I know...). Put on my signal, turned my head to check blind spot as I was rolling on the throttle and all of a sudden I was within maybe a foot of eating that lane camper's rear end. I wasn't in sport mode, I wasn't mashing the gas - it was a gradual increase in throttle.

This sounds like a new driver in a new car mistake, but I've NEVER had this happen before.

[///AVM]

Gentleman

You are doing a far better job than I have done in conveying the G80/82 dynamic . . . and in a lot fewer words.

I guess there is a reason why the Miata is so popular among 'drivers.'

My fear is that enthusiasts who do not own the G80/82 will interpret what we are stating as 'this car sucks,' when nothing could be further from the truth.

There is simply a point when the G80/82 performance correlates with the driver's perception of that performance . . . getting these two lines to cross requires a fair bit of open roadway.

///AVM

[buckybadger]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

Gentleman

You are doing a far better job than I have done in conveying the G80/82 dynamic . . . and in a lot fewer words.

I guess there is a reason why the Miata is so popular among 'drivers.'

My fear is that enthusiasts who do not own the G80/82 will interpret what we are stating as 'this car sucks,' when nothing could be further from the truth.

There is simply a point when the G80/82 performance correlates with the driver's perception of that performance . . . getting these two lines to cross requires a fair bit of open roadway.

///AVM

All you guys are saying is that the car lacks drama and some character that we traditionally see in M cars. It feels less angry just like Chris Harris described it in his review.

It sounds like more of a smooth GT rocket.

[TrentMeister]

Originally Posted by buckybadger

All you guys are saying is that the car lacks drama and some character that we traditionally see in M cars. It feels less angry just like Chris Harris described it in his review.

It sounds like more of a smooth GT rocket.

Yeah It's kinda bittersweet not gonna lie.

But to say smooth isn't exactly correct, it's still violent.. but it's so fast that the violence and drama you can achieve at street legal speeds are over very quickly.

[bri1042]

Originally Posted by TrentMeister

Yeah It's kinda bittersweet not gonna lie.

But to say smooth isn't exactly correct, it's still violent.. but it's so fast that the violence and drama you can achieve at street legal speeds are over very quickly.

Not going to disagree, but it's not like this wasn't also the case on the F80 or F87. One of my great disappointments with my M2C DCT was the lack of engagement from not having a manual combined with how quickly and effortlessly legal speeds disappeared. Note: Not trying to start a "manual only" war. That's an "each to his/her/their own". I am massively enjoying the return of at least some of the effort to the equation with manual.

Really, my only point: My two M cars have deleted pretty much all desire I have for anything faster. Unless you really have access to a LOT of track days every year, fast cars have gotten too fast for the streets...and for almost all drivers. The average driver should not be driving a sub-5-second (0-60) car. Despite our bravado, most of us on this board should not be driving a 3-second car on the streets. When the Model S first hit the streets, I was so impressed with the 0-60 they managed, now I think it's just dumb and irresponsible (at least in the cheaper Teslas).

[TrentMeister]

Originally Posted by bri1042

Not going to disagree, but it's not like this wasn't also the case on the F80 or F87. One of my great disappointments with my M2C DCT was the lack of engagement from not having a manual combined with how quickly and effortlessly legal speeds disappeared. Note: Not trying to start a "manual only" war. That's an "each to his/her/their own". I am massively enjoying the return of at least some of the effort to the equation with manual.

Really, my only point: My two M cars have deleted pretty much all desire I have for anything faster. Unless you really have access to a LOT of track days every year, fast cars have gotten too fast for the streets...and for almost all drivers. The average driver should not be driving a sub-5-second (0-60) car. Despite our bravado, most of us on this board should not be driving a 3-second car on the streets. When the Model S first hit the streets, I was so impressed with the 0-60 they managed, now I think it's just dumb and irresponsible (at least in the cheaper Teslas).

Yeah I agree. I do in fact wish mine was a 6 speed.

Especially if the issues the m2c had are solved.

[///AVM]

Gentlemen

Thank you for your comments

It reminds me of that old interview question, 'what is your weakness?'

To which, you are supposed to take a strength and make it into a weakness.

My G80C is so fast and highly engineered that it can be frustrating at times.

Yet, there are already numerous enthusiasts eager to tune their G80/82.

What in the world will they do with more torque/power?

///AVM

[jonahk]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

What in the world will they do with more torque/power?

Simple - be faster than the other G8x's

[evilalien]

Originally Posted by bri1042

I think it's just dumb and irresponsible

This summarizes my thoughts on the low level of mandatory driver training in the US and Canada.

[PLF69]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

Yet, there are already numerous enthusiasts eager to tune their G80/82.

What in the world will they do with more torque/power?

Some of them probably also baught some dick enlargement pills on the internet.

[DoubleDave]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

Gentlemen

Thank you for your comments

It reminds me of that old interview question, 'what is your weakness?'

To which, you are supposed to take a strength and make it into a weakness.

My G80C is so fast and highly engineered that it can be frustrating at times.

Yet, there are already numerous enthusiasts eager to tune their G80/82.

What in the world will they do with more torque/power?

///AVM

This is one of the reasons I went with a manual, I can have more engagement at any speed.

Modern performance cars have so much more than can be used on the street stock there’s no real reason to add power.

Having said that I understand the fun in tinkering and there’s no real reason to even own one of these cars, yet here we are.

[///AVM]

Is the F87 a drivers car? . . . I say yes.

Is the G80 a drivers car? . . . I say no.

Will the G87 be a drivers car? . . . ???

I'm going to enjoy the G80C for a bit because IT IS A GREAT CAR. . . I believe I will increasingly find myself wanting to get back into a drivers car.

The G80C has really been an eye opener when it comes to a car outperforming the capabilities of the common roadways. . . or, at least, rules of the roadways.

Will keep a loose eye on the G87, but currently more focused on anticipated release of 992 Carrera T.

///AVM

[buckybadger]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

Is the F87 a drivers car? . . . I say yes.

Is the G80 a drivers car? . . . I say no.

Will the G87 be a drivers car? . . . ???

I'm going to enjoy the G80C for a bit because IT IS A GREAT CAR. . . I believe I will increasingly find myself wanting to get back into a drivers car.

The G80C has really been an eye opener when it comes to a car outperforming the capabilities of the common roadways. . . or, at least, rules of the roadways.

Will keep a loose eye on the G87, but currently more focused on anticipated release of 992 Carrera T.

///AVM

I will probably add the G87 M2C or CS to my stable. Till then, will enjoy the M2C but will also keep it.

I guess I will have 2 M2s in the end and might turn one of them into a track monster.

[TrentMeister]

I do love this car don't get me wrong.

It absolutely rips, sounds really good, pulls insane lateral G's, turns heads, and is super luxurious.

I'm really happy with this thing, and I just need to get more comfortable with ripping it as hard as it likes to be and possibly finally start tracking to really enjoy it to the fullest.

[TrentMeister]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

Is the F87 a drivers car? . . . I say yes.

Is the G80 a drivers car? . . . I say no.

Will the G87 be a drivers car? . . . ???

I'm going to enjoy the G80C for a bit because IT IS A GREAT CAR. . . I believe I will increasingly find myself wanting to get back into a drivers car.

The G80C has really been an eye opener when it comes to a car outperforming the capabilities of the common roadways. . . or, at least, rules of the roadways.

Will keep a loose eye on the G87, but currently more focused on anticipated release of 992 Carrera T.

///AVM

Hey what was it you didn't like about your 918?

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by TrentMeister

Hey what was it you didn't like about your 918?

Nothing . . . I simultaneously owned the 718 CGTS and F87C, and realized I did not enjoy owning two visceral driving experiences simultaneously.

Not a matter of which was 'better.' Both visceral. Both great. Still, very different driving experiences. Decided I wanted to keep the F87C and continue to explore the ///M lineup.

I find the G80C also offers that 'visceral' experience . . . but more like a rollercoaster than a go-cart.

///AVM

[evilalien]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

Is foo a drivers car?

What is a "driver's car"?

This is a loaded term. Anyone trained to counter bias should be twitching whenever they read something asserting an undefined (and totally subjective) classification like this.

Here is an example definition:
https://www.carthrottle.com/post/w8g87ee/

And another:
https://drivetribe.com/p/what-really...QA6GnkEhJ5XZsw

And one more:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/opinion/an...ly-drivers-car

Examples, from yet another:
https://motor-junkie.com/20-best-dri...-today/9193/3/

I'm sure some people will try to claim that a car is only a "driver's car" if it has a MT. It is 2021, so I'll likely claim that anything is a driver's car if it doesn't drive itself

[jonahk]

Originally Posted by evilalien

What is a "driver's car"?

This is a loaded term. Anyone trained to counter bias should be twitching whenever they read something asserting an undefined (and totally subjective) classification like this.

Thank you for calling this out. Any car is a driver's car if you love driving it. I remember a Porsche buddy said my F87 wasn't a "true drivers car" because it had electric steering. Like wtf man, I drove the absolute piss out of that car and it made me smile every time. I did NOT enjoy driving his air cooled 1971 911 because his seat was broken and it stabbed me in the kidney whenever I turned. It didn't make it any less of a driver's car though.

Case in point, I had a chance to drive a Rallyfighter on a track a few years ago. No one has ever said the Rallyfighter is a "driver's car" but I certainly would. It is an experience unlike anything else. But because it's not planted on the road and can corner at 1.2g it doesn't fit that category? Bull. Drive one and you'll giggle like a deranged idiot the entire time. Top 3 driving experience for me.

We need to stop using that term to define if one vehicle is better than another.

*steps off soapbox and gets back to work*