[M Vier]

Interested to see the final product.
BMW wins if they still produce a 6MT
By that time, auto is gonna be sharper, less wait, less maintenance, and smoother than DCT; I assume

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

I have both the zf 8 in the x5m and the dct in the m3.

The drive experience is drastically different.

I have posted numerous times already, but the main points are

1. no immediate skip shifts. 3 gear downshift on the zf is 7-6-4, on the dct it is instant 7-4th.

2. zf8 downshifts can be rough, and smooth, it is inconsistent and depends on the speed and the rpm of the engine. the dct is almost always smooth. This is in S3 mode for both cars.

3. torque modulation- the zf will modulate torque to save the tranny on occasion, there is a noticeable dip in power during transitions. the dct snaps gears consistently.

4. heat- I have overheated my drive train 3 times on the x5m. I have never overheated my dct on the m3. The zf will simply ignore commands once this threshold has been passed. You will get a drivetrain malfunction on your display if prolonged. I would be interested to know if the new m5 sustains long track times without overheating the zf8. Hopefully it has better tranny cooling.

5. shift speed- on 1 gear requests, the zf is actually faster than the dct during normal below redline shifts. During WOT, the dct shifts harder and snaps gears, the zf will be more modulated- again both in s3.

zf also manufactures the PDK for Porsche which I have had the pleasure of driving, and the PDK is amazing and by far the best transmission. The devil is in the details and if you don't care, then it doesn't matter- but there is a clear difference between dual clutch transmissions vs torque converters.

DCT withstands 9,000 engine rpm vs. 7,500 rpm of 8AT. End of the story.

Torque argument for an inline-6 G80 M3 is bull crap as it won't be anywhere near 700Nm that F10 M5s have.

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by DCG

Blah, blah, blah!

I want an BMW M4 with rear-bias xDrive!!!

(X)-Drive... fitting name for those who can't drive

[rak299]

Nowhere did I see the statement that the 6MT was going to be sold in U.S. market. This seems like nothing new.

[frankiebones]

Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel

Of course I prefer buying a car that costs less that fulfills what I want. However, I absolutely prefer sleepers. I am a person that bought a Chevy SS. I bought a Sport Line 335i. I don't care for being flashy, and if you can't understand that, then maybe not everyone is like you.

I'll "reluctantly" buy an M3 if necessary. It is still an awesome car but I absolutely hate driving a flashy car to work or being seen in a flashy car with my family. Of course I'll enjoy the car, I'm not saying I won't. Just personally for me, I'd prefer to get an M340i which is more than enough for a fun daily driver.

You sir, are a "unicorn." However, I respect your position, and apologize if I inadvertently called you a liar.

[frankiebones]

Originally Posted by rak299

Nowhere did I see the statement that the 6MT was going to be sold in U.S. market. This seems like nothing new.

it is implied, as the US is by far the biggest market for the M Division's offerings...

that's some gift for "strict interpretation" you have sir. You remind me of a law school professor I had lol.

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

But what if the same transmission is used across the entire BMW lineup?

Not to mention the zf is the same one used on FCA cars, some audis, Land rovers, etc.

Current F90 M5's is used in the x5m, x6m, 7 series, regular x5/x6, Guilia Quadriwhatever, RAM 1500, Aston Martin's etc.

I don't know why that guy is even comparing this vs development costs of a brand new DCT used by only BMW (a la current GETRAG M-DCT)


source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZF_8HP_transmission

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

DCT withstands 9,000 engine rpm vs. 7,500 rpm of 8AT. End of the story.

Torque argument for an inline-6 G80 M3 is bull crap as it won't be anywhere near 700Nm that F10 M5s have.

Current M DCT cannot handle 640 whp before slipping. Seems high, but far before that threshold, the tranny is no longer reliable within bmw specs.

"For those running a DCT transmission we've found the factory clutch packs are only good for around 640whp before they start slipping. If you are planning for more power than this plan to upgrade to Dodson or SSP clutch packs sooner or later. "

BMW cannot mass produce these cars with the current dct without affecting reliability and maintain smoothness and driveability. There's no way they will warranty that car for 4 years much less with people modding it and just destroying the clutch.

http://www.burgertuning.com/s63tu_m5_m6_bmw_jb4.html

[DCG]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

(X)-Drive... fitting name for those who can't drive

For you perhaps!



You spinning, you ain't winning.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

Current M DCT cannot handle 640 whp before slipping. Seems high, but far before that threshold, the tranny is no longer reliable within bmw specs.

"For those running a DCT transmission we've found the factory clutch packs are only good for around 640whp before they start slipping. If you are planning for more power than this plan to upgrade to Dodson or SSP clutch packs sooner or later. "

BMW cannot mass produce these cars with the current dct without affecting reliability and maintain smoothness and driveability. There's no way they will warranty that car for 4 years much less with people modding it and just destroying the clutch.

http://www.burgertuning.com/s63tu_m5_m6_bmw_jb4.html

The limit for the current DCT is torque, not power. It all
depends at what RPM the power is produced.

It is limited to 700N-m (516lb-ft) so it could theoretically handle 747hp @7600RPM.

[Roundown]

Originally Posted by stefan

BMW M themselves stated that NA R&D had a long way to go and they were working on an S65 successor. That was before the wave of turbos.

I never enjoyed my S65. The S62 was more impressive and I think had a ton of potential. Worth noting the P65 in BMW racecars was actually S62 based.

I loved mine - and yes, still lots of run way on R&D. I imagine the next iteration would have had direct injection.

[KevinM]

Originally Posted by neo871

True. Too bad if the M xDrive will not be offered! Otherwise it's all great news.

Well, the more I think about it, the more I am thinking about just keeping my F80 (or getting a M2C) if there is no M xDrive offered. For me this car will not seem to offer to much compared to the F80 -

1. More power. Don't need it; realistically I don't use all of the F80's power.
2. Bigger. Don't want it.
3. Lighter - that is always a good thing, but I won't notice 50 - 100 lbs.
4. Better traction? That is the possible lynch pin, but with more torque and RWD only, doubt it.

[instarand]

Originally Posted by KevinM

Well, the more I think about it, the more I am thinking about just keeping my F80 (or getting a M2C) if there is no M xDrive offered. For me this car will not seem to offer to much compared to the F80 -

1. More power. Don't need it; realistically I don't use all of the F80's power.
2. Bigger. Don't want it.
3. Lighter - that is always a good thing, but I won't notice 50 - 100 lbs.
4. Better traction? That is the possible lynch pin, but with more torque and RWD only, doubt it.

I suspect one major noticeable and desirable upgrade will be interior styling and driver tech advancements. The current interior, while logical and simple, is certainly a step or two behind Audi interiors and screams 2013 3 series. I happen to appreciate the simple F80 interior, but no doubt it'll need to keep up with competition.

Also, I'd love some cooled seats! My butt gets nice and warm pretty quick in the winter - but after a workout or on a hot day (or both), nothing worse than a sweaty butt that doesn't cool down!!! TMI?

[marcva]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Agree on the M3 growing up... hence 1 series (now 2 series).. however. it's enthusiasts that pit the M3 against the 911.. not BMW .

The E30 M3 matched up with the 944. but after that... the M3 is a coupe/sedan vs the 911 which is a a 2+2 or 2 seat only sports car

I was just thinking about PTGs campaign with the E36s in the late 90s. I guess those cars were not quite indicative of stock, especially US stock.

[eRiggs5]

Originally Posted by instarand

I suspect one major noticeable and desirable upgrade will be interior styling and driver tech advancements. The current interior, while logical and simple, is certainly a step or two behind Audi interiors and screams 2013 3 series. I happen to appreciate the simple F80 interior, but no doubt it'll need to keep up with competition.

Also, I'd love some cooled seats! My butt gets nice and warm pretty quick in the winter - but after a workout or on a hot day (or both), nothing worse than a sweaty butt that doesn't cool down!!! TMI?

Aka swamp ass. It's no bueno.

[Fraggy]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

Really? Any particular reason why?

My last two cars have been PDK/DCT and I really enjoy them (previous 8 cars were all manuals).

I am not excited about the loss of DCT in the next gen M cars...I will be looking to scoop up an M2C at the end of my F80 lease for this exact reason.

For me, its tiring to drive just around town. I always drive in manual mode so that might contribute to it, but even just pulling into a parking space or pulling up to a car at a light, it lurches, bucks and does all kinds of things that need my attention to mitigate. For instance, as Im pulling up to someone, and it doesn't do this always adding to the problem, it will downshift into 1st, no problem in itself, but as it does it, it may blip the throttle(again, not always), making the car lurch forward while I'm trying to slowly and smoothly stop. The momentary lurch so close to another car causes me to have to use more braking, thus coming to a far less smooth stop. Plus the mental energy and of having to deal with this means its not a relaxing drive. Also, staring from a stop is not always predictably smooth as the clutch doesn't always engage in the same way, sometimes it hard to give it enough gas to get it engaged(while pulling away casually), while other times its pulling way harding than I want. The unpredictability is tiring. Especially in close traffic, like cruising around the beach or something.

Ive never hit anyone so its not impossible to deal with, but its not a relaxed around town cruiser, thats for sure. And the car is not meant to be, I get that.

I had a 430GC sport loaner the other day, within no time, I was pulling right up behind others, coming to a smooth stop just feet from their bumper. Id Never try that in my M as its so unpredictable where its actually going to stop and won't be nearly as smooth.

Im sure its just me and the car. Sadly, my next car won't be an M for many of these reasons. But at least I got to have one once finally

[hans007]

Originally Posted by Fraggy

For me, its tiring to drive just around town. I always drive in manual mode so that might contribute to it, but even just pulling into a parking space or pulling up to a car at a light, it lurches, bucks and does all kinds of things that need my attention to mitigate. For instance, as Im pulling up to someone, and it doesn't do this always adding to the problem, it will downshift into 1st, no problem in itself, but as it does it, it may blip the throttle(again, not always), making the car lurch forward while I'm trying to slowly and smoothly stop. The momentary lurch so close to another car causes me to have to use more braking, thus coming to a far less smooth stop. Plus the mental energy and of having to deal with this means its not a relaxing drive. Also, staring from a stop is not always predictably smooth as the clutch doesn't always engage in the same way, sometimes it hard to give it enough gas to get it engaged(while pulling away casually), while other times its pulling way harding than I want. The unpredictability is tiring. Especially in close traffic, like cruising around the beach or something.

Ive never hit anyone so its not impossible to deal with, but its not a relaxed around town cruiser, thats for sure. And the car is not meant to be, I get that.

I had a 430GC sport loaner the other day, within no time, I was pulling right up behind others, coming to a smooth stop just feet from their bumper. Id Never try that in my M as its so unpredictable where its actually going to stop and won't be nearly as smooth.

Im sure its just me and the car. Sadly, my next car won't be an M for many of these reasons. But at least I got to have one once finally

I have always thought I wanted an M3 someday. But having been in a friends F80... and a few other actual DSG sports cars with harsher suspensions etc, I guess I realized I'm really not "a track guy" and all the lurching and sacrifices I didn't really care for. Part of me still kind of wants one just to have gone through it and scratched the itch.

That said... maybe its just the DSG tuning in the M3 (or for example when ford had the powershift DSG and it was awful..) I have a b9 A4 right now and compared to my f30 it doesn't really seem much different as far as getting going and stopping. It doesn't have as much "creep" as the zf8 since its programmed in, but you get used to it.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by Fraggy

For me, its tiring to drive just around town. I always drive in manual mode so that might contribute to it, but even just pulling into a parking space or pulling up to a car at a light, it lurches, bucks and does all kinds of things that need my attention to mitigate. For instance, as Im pulling up to someone, and it doesn't do this always adding to the problem, it will downshift into 1st, no problem in itself, but as it does it, it may blip the throttle(again, not always), making the car lurch forward while I'm trying to slowly and smoothly stop. The momentary lurch so close to another car causes me to have to use more braking, thus coming to a far less smooth stop. Plus the mental energy and of having to deal with this means its not a relaxing drive. Also, staring from a stop is not always predictably smooth as the clutch doesn't always engage in the same way, sometimes it hard to give it enough gas to get it engaged(while pulling away casually), while other times its pulling way harding than I want. The unpredictability is tiring. Especially in close traffic, like cruising around the beach or something.

Ive never hit anyone so its not impossible to deal with, but its not a relaxed around town cruiser, thats for sure. And the car is not meant to be, I get that.

I had a 430GC sport loaner the other day, within no time, I was pulling right up behind others, coming to a smooth stop just feet from their bumper. Id Never try that in my M as its so unpredictable where its actually going to stop and won't be nearly as smooth.

Im sure its just me and the car. Sadly, my next car won't be an M for many of these reasons. But at least I got to have one once finally

Originally Posted by hans007

I have always thought I wanted an M3 someday. But having been in a friends F80... and a few other actual DSG sports cars with harsher suspensions etc, I guess I realized I'm really not "a track guy" and all the lurching and sacrifices I didn't really care for. Part of me still kind of wants one just to have gone through it and scratched the itch.

That said... maybe its just the DSG tuning in the M3 (or for example when ford had the powershift DSG and it was awful..) I have a b9 A4 right now and compared to my f30 it doesn't really seem much different as far as getting going and stopping. It doesn't have as much "creep" as the zf8 since its programmed in, but you get used to it.

Totally get what both of you are saying - there are times when the DCT acts in a bizarre manner, like when you're in Sport + and there's that crazy lurching at low speeds...not sure what that is about.

But I feel like those small annoyances are worth it when you get to shift crisply through the gears (up or down, and especially coming to a stop light). The F80 gives you a lot of variability in how hard you can make those shifts, and I love it. It's definitely more brutal in that way than my PDK was, but the PDK was a little smoother. Both are great in my opinion, and it's sad the Ms are moving away from this aspect of the experience...

[M3GymNut]

Originally Posted by Fraggy

For me, its tiring to drive just around town. I always drive in manual mode so that might contribute to it, but even just pulling into a parking space or pulling up to a car at a light, it lurches, bucks and does all kinds of things that need my attention to mitigate. For instance, as Im pulling up to someone, and it doesn't do this always adding to the problem, it will downshift into 1st, no problem in itself, but as it does it, it may blip the throttle(again, not always), making the car lurch forward while I'm trying to slowly and smoothly stop. The momentary lurch so close to another car causes me to have to use more braking, thus coming to a far less smooth stop. Plus the mental energy and of having to deal with this means its not a relaxing drive. Also, staring from a stop is not always predictably smooth as the clutch doesn't always engage in the same way, sometimes it hard to give it enough gas to get it engaged(while pulling away casually), while other times its pulling way harding than I want. The unpredictability is tiring. Especially in close traffic, like cruising around the beach or something.

Ive never hit anyone so its not impossible to deal with, but its not a relaxed around town cruiser, thats for sure. And the car is not meant to be, I get that.

I had a 430GC sport loaner the other day, within no time, I was pulling right up behind others, coming to a smooth stop just feet from their bumper. Id Never try that in my M as its so unpredictable where its actually going to stop and won't be nearly as smooth.

Im sure its just me and the car. Sadly, my next car won't be an M for many of these reasons. But at least I got to have one once finally

Getting a manual solves all these problems chief.

[brianeck]

Originally Posted by kamek

The new auto transmissions are exceptional.

Hahaha. The new Tranny's are exceptional - very convincing. Who needs real women anymore. - AT fans.

[///Mangler]

You have to drive them line you do a motorcycle. If you blip the throttle and let off to let the clutch engage, then apply small amounts of throttle it won't buck. If you just apply a bit of throttle and hold there until the clutch engages it will engage and lurch. Easy to work out for me.

T

[Fraggy]

Originally Posted by M3GymNut

Getting a manual solves all these problems chief.

Then we have the next to impossible to modulate brakes and poor turn radius. .